LDS Mormons, who is Heavenly Father?

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
I get the impression that Mormons don't want to distiguish our Triune God from the modalists' god.
Quite the opposite! I much prefer the Trinitarian view of modalism, as (in my view) it is much closer to the Truth. However, I do frequently find many people who mix them up among mainstream churches.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
So Mormons claim that we do not worship the true God; if our God is false there is no true God.

" The God of Abraham came down to visit Abraham and instruct him on several occasions, as he did likewise to others of the prophets. So Abraham became acquainted with our Heavenly Father and knew him. All I need to do to show that the God of Athanasius is not the God of Abraham is to refer to three points."
Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions, a Mormon Priesthood manual, published by the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
It's funny how you already acknowledge that I, an actual believing Trinitarian, will say that this is nonsense and not representative of Trinitarian belief, yet you continue to try and claim that this is the implication of my own belief. Very amusing.

Quite simply you don't understand what Trinitarians actually believe, as you are clearly confusing our belief with the modalist heresy. No, only Jesus was crucified on the cross. The Trinity doctrine clearly and emphatically teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons who are not each other. As we read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.


So yes, we can and do say, and have since the beginning, that God is three distinct Persons who are not each other.

Perhaps you need to do some reading on what you claim to understand, because it is clearly erroneous from actual Trinitarian theological understanding.
What you said is very close to Mormonism, but you left out the most important part of your Trinity belief, the part that smacks of modelism.

Here it is: Modelism: 1 God, 3 Modes.
Trinity: 1 God, 3 Persons.
Mormonism: 3 separate and distinct Individuals. 1 in purpose.
If you believe the 3 Persons are in 1 God, (and this is what you left out - only 1 God) then you must believe the 3 Persons all died on the cross.

God died on the cross, and since you believe the 3 Persons are in that 1 God, homoousia, then all 3 died that day.

Homoousia means the 3 Persons are of the same substance. That substance was nailed to a cross and died. If the 3 Persons are really homoousia, They all died together.

If this is not true, and only Jesus died on the cross that day, then tell me where God the Father and the HS were at the time Jesus was dying on the cross?

Careful, because if you say They were in heaven, then the 3 are not homoousia. In fact it proves Mormonism is right. Thanks for a reply.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,500
13,648
✟426,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
What you said is very close to Mormonism, but you left out the most important part of your Trinity belief, the part that smacks of modelism.

Here it is: Modelism: 1 God, 3 Modes.
Trinity: 1 God, 3 Persons.
Mormonism: 3 separate and distinct Individuals. 1 in purpose.
If you believe the 3 Persons are in 1 God, (and this is what you left out - only 1 God) then you must believe the 3 Persons all died on the cross.

You've written this before, and I'm not really sure where it's coming from. What you are advancing is a kind of Patripassionism ('Father-suffering'), which is itself a Sabellian-type belief, in that it posits that the Father and the Son not be distinguished as Persons, so that the suffering of one is the suffering of the other. This is not the belief of Christianity; how could it be, when we maintain that the Father does not have a body of flesh and blood by which He may experience physical suffering, as the Son does? That is a Mormon belief, not Christian.

God died on the cross, and since you believe the 3 Persons are in that 1 God, homoousia, then all 3 died that day.

How do you figure? We are not Sabellians. The three Persons share the same substance/essence, but that does not make them all the same Person. Again, your questions reveal a Sabellian-type misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, even as you bizarrely accuse us of the same.

Homoousia means the 3 Persons are of the same substance. That substance was nailed to a cross and died. If the 3 Persons are really homoousia, They all died together.

Ughhhhhh. Repetition #5,603: ousia does not refer to physical matter! You can't 'nail' an essence to anything!

If this is not true, and only Jesus died on the cross that day, then tell me where God the Father and the HS were at the time Jesus was dying on the cross?

Why would They have to be in any one place? The Father is GOD, the Son is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD. In Christianity, but not in Mormonism, God is not limited according to space and time (e.g., Ephesians 1:23), so there isn't really any way to answer a question that supposes they are in one place only by virtue of the limitations placed on them by the questioner (you/your religion).

Careful, because if you say They were in heaven, then the 3 are not homoousia. In fact it proves Mormonism is right. Thanks for a reply.

No it doesn't. It proves that you don't understand Christianity at all and are substituting your religion's theology for Christian theology when your religion runs up against concepts that it does not understand. This is not something that we actually have to have this conversation in order to learn/reinforce.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: NYCGuy
Upvote 0

NYCGuy

Newbie
Mar 9, 2011
839
162
New York
✟33,519.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
What you said is very close to Mormonism, but you left out the most important part of your Trinity belief, the part that smacks of modelism.

Here it is: Modelism: 1 God, 3 Modes.
Trinity: 1 God, 3 Persons.
Mormonism: 3 separate and distinct Individuals. 1 in purpose.
If you believe the 3 Persons are in 1 God, (and this is what you left out - only 1 God) then you must believe the 3 Persons all died on the cross.

God died on the cross, and since you believe the 3 Persons are in that 1 God, homoousia, then all 3 died that day.

Homoousia means the 3 Persons are of the same substance. That substance was nailed to a cross and died. If the 3 Persons are really homoousia, They all died together.

If this is not true, and only Jesus died on the cross that day, then tell me where God the Father and the HS were at the time Jesus was dying on the cross?

Careful, because if you say They were in heaven, then the 3 are not homoousia. In fact it proves Mormonism is right. Thanks for a reply.

Repeating what you already said doesn't make it true. Your understanding of substance is incorrect, so no, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not all die together. Again, the Trinity doctrine teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are not each other. Please let that sink in and do more reading on what we Trinitarians actually believe, instead of trying to tell us.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Okay, then in what way is it metaphysical? Because what is given above from the Encyclapedia of Mormonism says that it is literally so: All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.
The metaphysical has to do with the world of spirits. Which our prophets have not received all answers. Although it is true that all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and mother, and are literally sons and daughters of Deity, it is unknown how God the Father and Heavenly Mother form the spirit into a real living, thinking spirit child.

The spirit and the intelligence are eternal and is uncreated. God the Father and Heavenly Mother in some fashion, take the eternal intelligence and houses it in an eternal spirit. Let me give you some scriptures that may help you understand this process.

If you take Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This is in the first chapter of Genesis. God/Elohim and Others have made males (in His image)
and females (not in His image but in Her image-
Heavenly Mothers image - you know males have a different image than females :))

Now go to Genesis 2:1-7
In verses 1-4, God/Elohim is finished with the creation and rests.

Verse 5 is interesting, because after God/Elohim has finished His creation, He makes a strange statement and says, there not a man on the earth to till the ground?

And then verse 7:
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Then later he formed the female Eve.

So several questions need to be answered about Genesis 1 & 2
1) So God/Elohim made (notice that the words, 'made' and 'created' seem to be interchangeable, not sure what that means) man - both male and female. How many did They make/create?
Where did They create them. What happened to all of them?

2) If God/Elohim created and then finished and rested on the 7th day, why was there not a man on earth to till the ground? (remember vs. 5)

3) Now notice that verse 7 changes the name of the Creator to Lord God, which in Hebrew is Yahweh/Elohim. Is this another God? Is Justin right? Is this why God/Elohim said 'let us' make man...?
Was God/Elohim talking about Yahweh Elohim (in whose image males were made), and Heavenly Mother (in whose image females was made?)

4) So Yahweh Elohim now takes over the creating, and he makes man out of the dust of the ground.
Why does this not say, and Yahweh Elohim created man 'out of nothing'? Did he make man out or unformed matter? Maybe Justin was right?
Wait a minute, didn't God Elohim and Others make/create man in the first chapter?
Why is there 2 creations of man?

I will give you a hint, and solve the mystery.

In Genesis chapter 1, God/Elohim and others made/created male and female. At least, Elohim was there, and Heavenly Mother was there. This is the time that they formed Their spirit children, all of the children that would eventually come to earth.
(The method of forming has not been given to us at this time). Jesus was the 1st spirit child as the bible says, (see Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14)

It is a spirit creation and that is why in vs. 5 of chapter 2, it says there was not a man to till the ground. It is because the first chapter was a spirit creation in heaven and so there was no flesh man on the earth yet.

Then in chapter 2, Yahewh/Elohim (Jesus) now having Godhood status, is given power to create from God the Father and creates everything in the universe. The first man in the flesh, on the earth, now to till the ground is Adam, his wife is Eve. And the rest of the creation follows.

So long story, but a good one.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Super14LDS
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Genesis Chapter Two, verses 4-25 gives a more detailed description of what happened on day six. Chapter Two does not occur after day seven. By the seventh day, creation had been completed.
Chapter 2, verses 1-3 is the finishing of the creation done in Genesis 1, and the 7th day resting.
Verse 3, God is blessing the 7th day because he had rested from all his work, which God created and made. So creation done and God/Elohim is at rest.

So then we go to verse 4. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God mad the earth and the heavens.
Several interesting points:
1) verse 3 God/Elohim had rested from all that He created and made.
2) verse 4 Lord God/Yahweh Elohim opens up a new creation by saying, these now are the generations of His creation in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
3) Notice that God/Elohim is different than Lord God/Yahweh Elohim.

Verse 5 is the interesting scripture. Even though God/Elohim has created all and rested, there is still not a man to till the ground (on earth).
Why is there not a man to till the ground if God/Elohim had created man, both male and female on day 6 in Genesis 1:26? This is the question I really need you to answer.

Verse 7 The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim now forms (not created man out of nothing) from the dust of the earth the first man Adam.

Verses 6 and 8-9 Lord God/Yahweh Elohim now waters the face of the whole earth and plants begin to grow, and he plants a special garden in Eden for Adam and eventually Eve. The same things God/Elohim did in day 3 in Genesis 1.

Verse 19-20 Lord God/Yahweh Elohim formed, out of the ground, all the animals again. (Notice that he did not create them out of nothing).
God/Elohim had done the same thing on the 6th day in Genesis 1, except Lord God/Yahweh Elohim did it in reverse order in Genesis 2.

So Genesis 2:4-25 is not just a more precise look at what God/Elohim did in Genesis 1. And besides that, a different Person, Lord God/Yahweh Elohim was the creator in Genesis 2, not God/Elohim.

Who is God/Elohim in Genesis 1?
Who is Lord God/Yahweh Elohim in Genesis 2?
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
You are suggesting that there are two gods. There are not two gods. There is no legitimate basis for arguing that Genesis 2 is referring to another God.

Now try defining the Hebrew word yastar. If you find fault with the chronology of Chapter 2, which isn't emphasizing chronology, go back to the word yastar.

Genesis 2 NIV
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them.

Genesis 2 Tyndale
19 And after that the Lord God had made of the earth all manner beasts of the field, and all manner fowls of the air, he brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them. And as Adam called all manner living beasts: even so are their names.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
You are suggesting that there are two gods. There are not two gods. There is no legitimate basis for arguing that Genesis 2 is referring to another God.

Now try defining the Hebrew word yastar. If you find fault with the chronology of Chapter 2, which isn't emphasizing chronology, go back to the word yastar.

Genesis 2 NIV
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them.

Genesis 2 Tyndale
19 And after that the Lord God had made of the earth all manner beasts of the field, and all manner fowls of the air, he brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them. And as Adam called all manner living beasts: even so are their names.
The hebrew word 'yastar' means 'to form'. Thank you for proving my point that the Lord God/Yahew Elohim, formed man from the unformed dust of the earth.
He did not create man 'out of nothing'.

If there was not 2 Gods, then why would Moses use the name Elohim in Genesis 1 and another name, Yahweh Elohim in Genesis 2? Did he do that to confuse us right from the beginning?

The legitimate reason is the name of the Genesis 2 God is a different name and a different Person than the Genesis 1 God. If your looking for no legitimate reasons for things, here it is. There would be no ligitimate reason for Moses to call God by the name of Elohim in Genesis 1, and then call God by the name of Yahweh Elohim in Genesis 2.

Unless you can give me a reason?

BTW, what is your explanation for Genesis 2:5 that there was no man to till the ground?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Repeating what you already said doesn't make it true. Your understanding of substance is incorrect, so no, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not all die together. Again, the Trinity doctrine teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are not each other. Please let that sink in and do more reading on what we Trinitarians actually believe, instead of trying to tell us.

Then tell me what the true understanding of what substance is?

So they are 3 distinct Persons who are not each other. OK, I get that. But now let's talk about the Sabellian part of the Trinity. If the 3 distinct Persons are in 1 God, how is that different than 3 Modes in 1 God. Tell me the difference between Modes and Persons.

I can see a partial difference, so let me see if I am right? Sabellius said there is 1 God, but in 3 Modes. This 1 God can either be in God the Father mode, or a Jesus Christ mode, or a HS mode. This idea was condemned because Tertullian said that if this were the case, God the Father and the HS died with Jesus on the cross.
I would agree with that.

The Trinity says that there is 1 God with 3 distinct Persons. Similar to Sabellius, however the Persons are distinct from each other. But the problem still persists.
If all 3 are in 1 God, what are Jesus and the HS Persons doing when the Person God the Father is speaking. What is God the Father and the HS Persons doing when the Person Jesus is speaking. What is God the Father and Jesus Persons doing when the Person HS is speaking?

Since the 3 distinct Person cannot be divided, and they share the same substance, then I have to say that when the God Jesus was crucified on the cross, God the Father had to be there too, and so did the HS. Somehow, help me to understand how this is not so.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
If there was not 2 Gods, then why would Moses use the name Elohim in Genesis 1 and another name, Yahweh Elohim in Genesis 2? Did he do that to confuse us right from the beginning?

The legitimate reason is the name of the Genesis 2 God is a different name and a different Person than the Genesis 1 God. If your looking for no legitimate reasons for things, here it is. There would be no ligitimate reason for Moses to call God by the name of Elohim in Genesis 1, and then call God by the name of Yahweh Elohim in Genesis 2.

Unless you can give me a reason?

BTW, what is your explanation for Genesis 2:5 that there was no man to till the ground?

Elohim is NOT God's name! Yaweh Elohim is LORD God in English.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Elohim is NOT God's name! Yaweh Elohim is LORD God in English.
Elohim is God in English. If Elohim is not God's name, then who made/created things in Genesis 1?

Moses says it was a God named Elohim. Do you know more than Moses? If so let us know.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
God formed man from the dust God created.
If you thought God created man 'out of nothing', it must have been interesting to know that the real verbiage from the bible says, 'The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim formed (not created)man out of unformed matter (dust).

If you were that far off about God vs Lord God and created out of nothing vs formed from unformed dust,
why should anybody believe you that God created the dust. I have been correct all along, and I say he made the earth from unformed matter in the universe.

Besides the word 'create' or 'created' does not imply 'out of nothing'. The word 'create' normally means that someone takes something and creates something out of it.

It just became fashionable for the Jews to give their God more power by saying that He created things out of nothing. They were wrong.

All matter is made up of atoms or smaller particles. These elements can not be destroyed or come to and end. If they can not be destroyed, nor come to an end, logic says they had no beginning either.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
So Mormons claim that we do not worship the true God; if our God is false there is no true God.

" The God of Abraham came down to visit Abraham and instruct him on several occasions, as he did likewise to others of the prophets. So Abraham became acquainted with our Heavenly Father and knew him. All I need to do to show that the God of Athanasius is not the God of Abraham is to refer to three points."
Selections from Answers to Gospel Questions, a Mormon Priesthood manual, published by the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972.
What were the 3 points?
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Elohim is NOT God's name! Yaweh Elohim is LORD God in English.
The English word for the Hebrew word Elohim is God. The English word for the Hebrew word Yahweh Elohim is the Lord God. God the Father is Elohim, and Jesus, the Lord God is Yahweh Elohim.
 
Upvote 0

Peter1000

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2015
7,876
488
71
✟124,865.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Phoebe Ann,

In my post #350 I asked you to try to explain Genesis 2:5. Here is why that is interesting.

In Genesis chapter 1 there is a creation of all things.
In Genesis chapter 2 there is this interesting scripture of verse 5, where is says that there is not a man to till the ground.
MY question: why in chapter 2 is there no man to till the ground (meaning man was not on the earth yet) when there appears to be a creation of man in chapter 1?

If Genesis chapter 2 is just a more detailed look at the creation in Genesis 1, then we must assume that the creation happened in chapter 1. And chapter 2 is just a more detailed look at what happened in chapter 1.

But then you have that interesting Genesis 2:5 that says there is no man on the earth, and this is after chapter 1, which we have assumed the creation happened.
MY next question: where did the creation in chapter 1 happen, if in chapter 2, verse 5, there was no man on the earth?
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Phoebe Ann,

In my post #350 I asked you to try to explain Genesis 2:5. Here is why that is interesting.

In Genesis chapter 1 there is a creation of all things.
In Genesis chapter 2 there is this interesting scripture of verse 5, where is says that there is not a man to till the ground.
MY question: why in chapter 2 is there no man to till the ground (meaning man was not on the earth yet) when there appears to be a creation of man in chapter 1?

If Genesis chapter 2 is just a more detailed look at the creation in Genesis 1, then we must assume that the creation happened in chapter 1. And chapter 2 is just a more detailed look at what happened in chapter 1.

But then you have that interesting Genesis 2:5 that says there is no man on the earth, and this is after chapter 1, which we have assumed the creation happened.
MY next question: where did the creation in chapter 1 happen, if in chapter 2, verse 5, there was no man on the earth?

If I wrote chapter two to explain more detail I would go back to explain that before man was made, the ground couldn't be tilled by a man. I think you're getting desparate to see that verse as a problem. I don't see the problem.

There is no law that says chapter two occurred at a later time than the creation of man in chapter one.

Mormonism adds "scripture" to God's word:
President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were also others who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed? We know that Jesus our Savior was a Spirit when this great work was done. He did all of these mighty works before he tabernacled in the flesh”13 (see also Abr. 3:23–24).

Further, latter-day prophets inform us that God did not create the earth out of nothing, as is supposed by much of traditional Christianity today.
‘In the Beginning’: A Latter-day Perspective

In 1998, we see the phrase "traditional Christianity" yet earlier LDS leaders referred to our denominations as "apostate Christianity."

As for the Garden of Eden not having been anywhere near Assyria, that is a contradiction to the Bible.

Genesis 2
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,503
6,392
Midwest
✟78,404.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Elohim is God in English. If Elohim is not God's name, then who made/created things in Genesis 1?

Moses says it was a God named Elohim. Do you know more than Moses? If so let us know.

The Moses of the Bible or the Moses of Joseph Smith?
 
Upvote 0