Doer of the law

[bloodygrace]

John Fox was a Protestant born in 1516. He was like you in thinking that the sabbath was wrong. There are other historical accounts where people were forbidden to worship or rest on the seventh day and even murdered for it specifically. As far as sabbath keepers in the book of martyrs yes, Paul, Peter, James and ALL of the apostles as their custom was, to preach to Jews and gentiles on the sabbath.

The Sabbath is wrong because it is a pathway back to the law where you trust in your human merits instead of Christ's perfect merit. So many try to make the issue between Sabbath vs. Sunday but the real issue that has and never will change is law vs. grace.

 

[danstribe]

Hello Dantribe.

You said.

Too easy, so what is the will of the Father?

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Are you saying that anyone who believes in the Son is not saved?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Do you disagree with the statement above?

Then you also said.

The scripture states that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to whoever calls on His name.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Someone who calls on the name of Jesus but does not follow the sayings of Jesus, does not really believe in Jesus.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Rejecting Jesus is the same as rejecting what Jesus told us to do, that is the same thing.

Be very careful in the way you understand the Gospel, we are not saved because we are good folk. Rather we are reconciled purely by the work of Christ, His death and resurrection.

I never said we are saved because we are good folk. I just quoted what Christ said, the point being that there are several passages that we MUST look at not just one or two. Actually we must look at ALL of them concerning the subject in order to get the full understanding. You are right in what you have said, which is what I said, we have to DO the will of the Father not just listen to it. The will of the Father is the same as the will of the Son because they agree completely with each other. Is believing in the name of His Son the only thing? Christ said the demons believe and tremble...but they're not saved.
Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous." Does that mean us or just Christ? Does Christ keep the law for us? What is love? Christ said "If you love Me keep My commandments" This is the will of God that we love one another. How? How are we to love one another? Do not murder, do not covet, do not commit adultery, do not lie, honor your father and mother and whatever else there might be.
Believing in Christ, believing and calling on Him to forgive us is the first step through the door that God has opened for us to salvation and everlasting life. Following Christ's example of obedience, walking as He walked on the same path and by the grace of God, never falling under the penalty of death again by the continued forgiveness of sin until our resurrection.

 

[danstribe]

Hello Dantribe.

You said.

Too easy, so what is the will of the Father?

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

Are you saying that anyone who believes in the Son is not saved?

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Do you disagree with the statement above?

Then you also said.

The scripture states that Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to whoever calls on His name.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Someone who calls on the name of Jesus but does not follow the sayings of Jesus, does not really believe in Jesus.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Rejecting Jesus is the same as rejecting what Jesus told us to do, that is the same thing.

Be very careful in the way you understand the Gospel, we are not saved because we are good folk. Rather we are reconciled purely by the work of Christ, His death and resurrection.

Good morning! God Bless! I had to go to bed! I agree with you

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Actually we must look at ALL of them concerning the subject in order to get the full understanding.

(Yet not like the scribes and pharisees who memorized all TORAH,
yet missed the MESSIAH.)
Also, even BEFORE we look at all of SCRIPTURE, we know the TRUTH from YHWH when HE reveals it as HE says:
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
and
to babes, while hiding it from the educated ones, because THIS IS HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO DO SO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(and we see this every day, every where, it is true)

Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous."

Notice likewise, yes, perfectly,
that not just Christ was a DOER , but EVEN in ROMANS - GENTILES!!!!! who have not the TORAH --- when THEY DO TORAH, from the heart, they are JUSTIFIED !!!
quite a shock to most churches, eh!?

 

[danstribe]

Hi danstribe, I have not been following this thread, so I can only presume you are a Sabbath observer and if so an Adventist. I was SDA for 40 years. As much as I love my SDA friends I could not stay in a church that so blatantly disregard what Jesus has done for all mankind and is sitting not in some room counting sins of SDAs, but at the right hand of the Father where He has been since Calvary. Those Sabbath observers who throughout history that have been martyrs have done it out of ignorance.

If you study the giving of the 10 commandments at Sinai you will find that it along with the book of the law were the words of the covenant. The covenant was not given for Israel's salvation. It was given so that if they agreed to do all the covenant's requirements they would inherit Canaan, the land of milk and honey. Those that agreed with the requirements never saw their promised land. They all died during the 40 years in the wilderness. It was their offspring and Aaron who crossed over into the promised land. Again, they didn't keep all those laws for the promise of the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is and always was a personal relationship with God. That is how Abraham was saved.

My point in writing this is that your Sabbath observance and any other ritual laws gleaned from the old covenant is futile. God is not offering you Canaan. What He is offering all of us is Grace. Salvation is a free gift and trying to do rituals given to a now defunct nation is just as futile as becoming a Sabbath martyr throughout the ages.

Thank you Bob, but no, I am not an SDA never have been, but I do keep the seventh day as the day of rest and worship although I worship every day. I don't believe the Ten Commandments were given just as an agreement to possess the land of Israel but they were given as the basic Law of God on how to love Him and how to love mankind. Not only did God offer them the land if they obeyed and worshiped only Him but He offered them life. He said to them "This day I set before you life and death, therefore choose life" They were not offered eternal life at that time but they were given the promise of the savior who would come and give them eternal life Christ.
I guess what I am saying is that it is not one way or the other but it must be both. One without the other is useless. Faith without works is dead and works without faith is also dead. Only Christ gives us the ability and forgiveness required to keep the law of life because before one sin and you were dead forever. Christ brought us back from death to continue to keep the law of life. It seems so hard to believe that faith and works are both required, but faith comes first, works follow as the fruit of the Spirit. Sabbath keeping does not earn salvation but it is a part of God's Law of love toward Him, just like not making idols or using His name in vain or going after other gods. God said to take a rest! That is so great and thoughtful of Him to give us that. Do I think only seventh day sabbath keepers are going to saved? No! I think that Christians from every church will be saved, but not all who say they are Christians. Do I think that we will ALL keep the seventh day sabbath after Christ's return? Yes, I do. But if it so happens that He says No, I want everyone to keep the 3rd day holy I will be so happy to do that too!

 

[Traveling teacher]

Gentiles can keep Sabbath if
They want to discover their Hebrew roots
If they need help to stay out of coveting or workaholism........I

No one should keep Sabbath if they think they are better than others and use it as a sword to consdemn...thia is self righteousneas.......

If a Jewish believer is visiting gentile believers he should go to Sunday church with them.....
If a gentile is visiting Jewish believers he should go to Sabbath worship so consemnation.....

 

[klutedavid]

I never said we are saved because we are good folk. I just quoted what Christ said, the point being that there are several passages that we MUST look at not just one or two. Actually we must look at ALL of them concerning the subject in order to get the full understanding. You are right in what you have said, which is what I said, we have to DO the will of the Father not just listen to it. The will of the Father is the same as the will of the Son because they agree completely with each other. Is believing in the name of His Son the only thing? Christ said the demons believe and tremble...but they're not saved.
Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous." Does that mean us or just Christ? Does Christ keep the law for us? What is love? Christ said "If you love Me keep My commandments" This is the will of God that we love one another. How? How are we to love one another? Do not murder, do not covet, do not commit adultery, do not lie, honor your father and mother and whatever else there might be.
Believing in Christ, believing and calling on Him to forgive us is the first step through the door that God has opened for us to salvation and everlasting life. Following Christ's example of obedience, walking as He walked on the same path and by the grace of God, never falling under the penalty of death again by the continued forgiveness of sin until our resurrection.

Hello Danstribe.

Appreciate that you replied, though I am deeply troubled by your reply.

Is believing in the name of His Son the only thing? Christ said the demons believe and tremble...but they're not saved.

Believing in the death and the resurrection of the Christ, is the primary doctrine of Christianity.

Please read the following passage very carefully.

1 Corinthians 15
15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Did you read that line, 'For I delivered to you as of first importance'.

Is the death and resurrection of the Christ the primary doctrine as Paul stated or not?

Here is another passage that adds even more weight to this first doctrine.

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in His resurrection results in your salvation.

Once again Dan, is believing in the death and resurrection of the Christ the first doctrine?

Christ said the demons believe and tremble

This has nothing to do with our conversation, the scripture does not say that the demons believe in the death and resurrection of the Christ.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

As you can clearly see above, the demons believe God is one, this verse says nothing of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

For some unknown reason, many folk misunderstand this verse.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Dan.

Further on in your previous post, you said.

we have to DO the will of the Father not just listen to it.

You misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are not saved because you do what is required of you. Paul states that salvation is a free gift, a free gift is not a reward for being a good person.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How can salvation, eternal life, be a reward for behaving oneself?

Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous."

The doctrine that you teach is that, obeying the entire law results in righteousness, that is pure heresy.

Paul is arguing a point here with the Jews in Rome, Paul will later clarify this point later in this letter to the Romans. You cannot use chapter two of Romans to establish doctrine and ignore what Paul states later in the letter.

Paul does not say it is the doers of the ten commandments, Paul specifically says, 'the doers of the law'.
The phrase in the text (Romans 2:13), 'the law', is what the Jews in Rome were under. The Gentiles in Rome were never under 'the law', Paul states.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law...

So it is clear that the Gentiles never had the law, thus Paul is not talking to them.

 

[klutedavid]

I never said we are saved because we are good folk. I just quoted what Christ said, the point being that there are several passages that we MUST look at not just one or two. Actually we must look at ALL of them concerning the subject in order to get the full understanding. You are right in what you have said, which is what I said, we have to DO the will of the Father not just listen to it. The will of the Father is the same as the will of the Son because they agree completely with each other. Is believing in the name of His Son the only thing? Christ said the demons believe and tremble...but they're not saved.
Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous." Does that mean us or just Christ? Does Christ keep the law for us? What is love? Christ said "If you love Me keep My commandments" This is the will of God that we love one another. How? How are we to love one another? Do not murder, do not covet, do not commit adultery, do not lie, honor your father and mother and whatever else there might be.
Believing in Christ, believing and calling on Him to forgive us is the first step through the door that God has opened for us to salvation and everlasting life. Following Christ's example of obedience, walking as He walked on the same path and by the grace of God, never falling under the penalty of death again by the continued forgiveness of sin until our resurrection.

Hello Dan.

Love is not obedience to the commandment to not kill.

A person who has not committed murder might well be a sorcerer, a drunkard, a slave trader.

What do you mean by saying that love is not killing?

 

[bugkiller]

I never said we are saved because we are good folk. I just quoted what Christ said, the point being that there are several passages that we MUST look at not just one or two. Actually we must look at ALL of them concerning the subject in order to get the full understanding. You are right in what you have said, which is what I said, we have to DO the will of the Father not just listen to it. The will of the Father is the same as the will of the Son because they agree completely with each other. Is believing in the name of His Son the only thing? Christ said the demons believe and tremble...but they're not saved.
Romans 2:13 says "For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous." Does that mean us or just Christ? Does Christ keep the law for us? What is love? Christ said "If you love Me keep My commandments" This is the will of God that we love one another. How? How are we to love one another? Do not murder, do not covet, do not commit adultery, do not lie, honor your father and mother and whatever else there might be.
Believing in Christ, believing and calling on Him to forgive us is the first step through the door that God has opened for us to salvation and everlasting life. Following Christ's example of obedience, walking as He walked on the same path and by the grace of God, never falling under the penalty of death again by the continued forgiveness of sin until our resurrection.

So which passages are we omitting that are valid to our point? Ps 14 and 53 both say there are none that do good (keep the law). Issiah laments this fact in 63.

Now what is the will of the Father? Is it keeping the law? Could it be something else? John says it is believe on Jesus and do what HE says. Is that wrong? Does Jesus require keeping the law? Where?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

(Yet not like the scribes and pharisees who memorized all TORAH,
yet missed the MESSIAH.)
Also, even BEFORE we look at all of SCRIPTURE, we know the TRUTH from YHWH when HE reveals it as HE says:
" Then opened HE their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,"
and
to babes, while hiding it from the educated ones, because THIS IS HIS GOOD PLEASURE TO DO SO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(and we see this every day, every where, it is true)


Notice likewise, yes, perfectly,
that not just Christ was a DOER , but EVEN in ROMANS - GENTILES!!!!! who have not the TORAH --- when THEY DO TORAH, from the heart, they are JUSTIFIED !!!
quite a shock to most churches, eh!?

Seeing the issues discussed in Acts 15, I do not think the Gentiles kept the 7th day sabbath. So what is Paul saying in Rom 2?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Thank you Bob, but no, I am not an SDA never have been, but I do keep the seventh day as the day of rest and worship although I worship every day. I don't believe the Ten Commandments were given just as an agreement to possess the land of Israel but they were given as the basic Law of God on how to love Him and how to love mankind. Not only did God offer them the land if they obeyed and worshiped only Him but He offered them life. He said to them "This day I set before you life and death, therefore choose life" They were not offered eternal life at that time but they were given the promise of the savior who would come and give them eternal life Christ.
I guess what I am saying is that it is not one way or the other but it must be both. One without the other is useless. Faith without works is dead and works without faith is also dead. Only Christ gives us the ability and forgiveness required to keep the law of life because before one sin and you were dead forever. Christ brought us back from death to continue to keep the law of life. It seems so hard to believe that faith and works are both required, but faith comes first, works follow as the fruit of the Spirit. Sabbath keeping does not earn salvation but it is a part of God's Law of love toward Him, just like not making idols or using His name in vain or going after other gods. God said to take a rest! That is so great and thoughtful of Him to give us that. Do I think only seventh day sabbath keepers are going to saved? No! I think that Christians from every church will be saved, but not all who say they are Christians. Do I think that we will ALL keep the seventh day sabbath after Christ's return? Yes, I do. But if it so happens that He says No, I want everyone to keep the 3rd day holy I will be so happy to do that too!

you are mixing covenants.

bugkiller

 

[danstribe]

Hello Dan.

Love is not obedience to the commandment to not kill.

A person who has not committed murder might well be a sorcerer, a drunkard, a slave trader.

What do you mean by saying that love is not killing?

If you hate your neighbor in your heart you are guilty of murder, if you lust after your neighbor's spouse in your mind you are guilty of adultery....
Not committing these sins even in your mind is love toward your neighbor

 

[danstribe]

you are mixing covenants.

bugkiller

No I'm not, you missed my point.

 

[danstribe]

Seeing the issues discussed in Acts 15, I do not think the Gentiles kept the 7th day sabbath. So what is Paul saying in Rom 2?

bugkiller

Paul preached to the gentiles on the sabbath

 

[danstribe]

So which passages are we omitting that are valid to our point? Ps 14 and 53 both say there are none that do good (keep the law). Issiah laments this fact in 63.

Now what is the will of the Father? Is it keeping the law? Could it be something else? John says it is believe on Jesus and do what HE says. Is that wrong? Does Jesus require keeping the law? Where?

bugkiller

OK Christ said to keep the commandments

 

[klutedavid]

If you hate your neighbor in your heart you are guilty of murder, if you lust after your neighbor's spouse in your mind you are guilty of adultery....
Not committing these sins even in your mind is love toward your neighbor

Hello Dan.

Hating your neighbor does not break the letter of the law, the commandment says, thou shall not kill.

Does anyone wish to debate the precise meaning of the letter of the law?

If you are under the law, i.e., you only need to avoid killing your neighbor and you have obeyed the law.

There is a vast difference between the letter of the law and Christ's commandments.

Fighting the thought of killing your neighbor in your mind, somehow does not seem to be a definition of love. Sounds more like a struggle to not do what you really want to do. Where as love is seeking the best for your neighbor, which is much more than resisting the urge to kill your neighbor.

You don't see the difference do you Dan, you think love is resisting doing something you really want to do. Love is kind, whereas not killing your neighbor is not being kind to your neighbor. Obeying the letter of the law is not an act of love, and I don't care who told you that.

 

[Bob S]

Thank you Bob, but no, I am not an SDA never have been, but I do keep the seventh day as the day of rest and worship although I worship every day.

Thanks for your reply. It helps me to understand the one who is posting with me if I know their core belief system. My belief system is strictly a new covenant. I do not subscribe to any of the ritual laws given only to Israel. I believe morality has been as long as there have been living beings. Sin was in the universe long before Adam and Eve. It started with the angels. We have no data on how long God dealt with the angels, but we do know He finally cast them out of Heaven. Did Grace play a part in all of that? I would say it did, God is long suffering. Abraham was saved by the Grace of God because He believed and had the faith. The Israelites down through the ages will be saved the same way as Abraham was. The covenant between Israel and God was not about their salvation and it should not be about ours. If you choose to worship on Saturday all is well, If you choose to worship once a month on Wednesday that would be to your choosing. Sunday is not in any way sacred, but it is convenient.

I don't believe the Ten Commandments were given just as an agreement to possess the land of Israel but they were given as the basic Law of God on how to love Him and how to love mankind.

If you will study the 10 commandments you will find that there is nothing in them about love and they are lacking the greatest command to loce God and our fellow man. There is absolutely no reference to love, they are about duty.

Not only did God offer them the land if they obeyed and worshiped only Him but He offered them life.

Yes just like He offers life to all His children and that was/is not by observing Torah.

He said to them "This day I set before you life and death, therefore choose life" They were not offered eternal life at that time but they were given the promise of the savior who would come and give them eternal life Christ.

I am not saying the promise of a Savior is not there, but I just do not see ti in those verses.

I guess what I am saying is that it is not one way or the other but it must be both. One without the other is useless.

True, life without the promise of eternity would be worthless. The promise of eternal life is just not found in Torah.

Faith without works is dead and works without faith is also dead.

I would be very careful in how I would quote that sentence. James was saying that faith without good deeds is dead. He was not referring to works of the law it was how we treat our fellow man and God. Paul wrote that works of the law is like dung. Salvation does not come from keeping the law. Our faith will show by our good deeds.

Only Christ gives us the ability and forgiveness required to keep the law of life because before one sin and you were dead forever.

Mute point because we are not required to keep the law of Moses

Christ brought us back from death to continue to keep the law of life. It seems so hard to believe that faith and works are both required, but faith comes first, works follow as the fruit of the Spirit.

The law of life is not Torah. Abraham had the law of life as well as those before and after him.

Sabbath keeping does not earn salvation but it is a part of God's Law of love toward Him,

Sounds so nice, but there is not one shred of truth that it is part of God's law of love toward Him. There is nothing in the Sabbath command about love. It was about remembering their flight out of Egypt and remembering Creation.

just like not making idols or using His name in vain or going after other gods. God said to take a rest!

It was a rest for Israel and a time for remembrance. Christians did not have the experience. We have the Holy Spirit and we rest in Jesus.

That is so great and thoughtful of Him to give us that.

Where is you find that He gave "us" that. When He gave Israel the Sabbath why didn't He give it to all mankind? Why didn't Jesus come preaching Sabbath to the gentiles. Why did He instruct Paul to writ that the 10 commandments WERE temporary. Yes the ten that contain the 7th day Sabbath WERE transitory: 2Cor3:7-11
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Do I think only seventh day sabbath keepers are going to saved?

Thanks, neither does scripture.

I think that Christians from every church will be saved, but not all who say they are Christians.

First of all I do not believe you leep the Sabbath, therefore you sin. There is a verse in the Old Testament that will keep you forever from really keeping the Sabbath and that is the one that tells you:
Isaiah 58:13
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,

Have you ever met those goals? Do you have conversations about other things , look at the other sex with admiration, oogle the new car that your friend drives to your church? All of which are doing your own pleasure.

Do I think that we will ALL keep the seventh day sabbath after Christ's return? Yes, I do.

I presume you get your information from Is 66:
19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your people, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

To believe we are going to gather on the Sabbath because of Is 66:23 is a very sketchy place to get your information as to what will happen in the New Earth. Read Is 65 and more take on the New Earth.

But if it so happens that He says No, I want everyone to keep the 3rd day holy I will be so happy to do that too!

Yes, if I am wrong and I cannot properly understand scripture and still have a home in Heaven, I will be thrilled to do whatever the Lord commands.

 

[bugkiller]

No I'm not, you missed my point.

I did not move the target. Sorry you could not hit it.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Paul preached to the gentiles on the sabbath

So, what. Were they not in the synagogue where Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles. Was Paul preaching to the choir?

bugkiller