Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

[bugkiller]

Hello Stuart.

Within the letter to the Gentiles, Paul is directly addressing the Jews.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they?

Gentile christians in Rome could not be ignorant of the law placed within them under the core terms of the NC. And to say none of them were aware of the TC is nonsense. And it is one of the TC that takes up most if rom ch7, as you should know.
And it was a post i wrote concerning that chapter That brought your initial response that started this conversation

Then why does chapter 14 exist? Are the gentiles really insisting on certain foods and holy days?

bugkiller

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then why does chapter 14 exist? Are the gentiles really insisting on certain foods and holy days?

bugkiller

Why ask me, just tell me. You believe you understand romans better than I do

 

[bugkiller]

And if you think gentile christians dud not need to be reminded not to try and be justified under a law of righteousness I would have to say that is spiritual naivety

I have a big tank of hogwash.

bugkiller

 

[1stcenturylady]

So it appears that you think i have not read Romans 7. The first illustration of the chapter shows one is not obligated to the law. Verse 6 says Now we are delivered from the law. Yet you say the chapter is about being under the law. Really? Please explain how when the text says delivered from the law.

bugkiller

We are delivered from the law by keeping the holy laws of God through the Holy Spirit who has changed our nature. We are dead to sin. Does the struggle of Romans 7 feel like someone who has power over sin and has no more struggle with it?

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Stuart.

How many Christians do you believe will try and justify themselves before God?

Whether this justification is legal or otherwise.

A lot, because a partial law adherence is taught in most pro grace churches. That is partly why I no longer attend.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Is it a "mistake" to read Acts 13:42-44 and Acts 17:2-4 and Acts 18:4 and "see" that the Jews AND the Gentiles are hearing the Gospel given from OT scripture "every Sabbath"???



The problem you have there - is that your speculation needs to imagine that half the church in Rome has the Septuagint (scripture) as Paul stated in 2Tim 3:16 - and refuses to allow gentiles to access it.

Yet we see without question in Acts 17:11, in Acts 17:1-4 in Acts 13:42-44 and in Acts 18:4 that the much-imagined speculation simply does not survive the facts of real life as revealed in the NT text.

Bible details matter.

That assumes Christians were primarily attending synagogue. The history I read in Acts has the judaizers attending Christian assemblies.

bugkiller

 

[bloodygrace]

We are delivered from the law by keeping the holy laws of God through the Holy Spirit who has changed our nature. We are dead to sin. Does the struggle of Romans 7 feel like someone who has power over sin and has no more struggle with it?

No we are delivered from the law when we realize we can never keep it and learn to live by faith and love. You obviously haven't learned the lesson.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No we are delivered from the law when we realize we can never keep it and learn to live by faith and love. You obviously haven't learned the lesson.

I know the Bible and I know that 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7 are not describing Christians. Many liberal Christians see themselves and their own struggles and relate to these verses, thus justifying their own struggle with sin. I don't know if that applies to you or not, but it has appeared in my experience for years that whoever believes 1 John 1:8 is about Christians ALSO believes Romans 7 is too; and those like me who believe 1 John 1:7 and 3:4-10 believes in Romans 6 and 8:9 and knows Romans 7 in context is about those who were under the law in their own strength. But praise God we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF we have the Spirit. And those who don't have the Spirit do not belong to Christ. We are dead to sin.

I expect from your remark about me that you believe grace is "unmerited favor" and that the blood of Jesus covers our past, present, and future sins. Am I right?

 

[bloodygrace]

I know the Bible and I know that 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7 are not describing Christians. Many liberal Christians see themselves and their own struggles and relate to these verses, thus justifying their own struggle with sin. I don't know if that applies to you or not, but it has appeared in my experience for years that whoever believes 1 John 1:8 is about Christians ALSO believes Romans 7 is too; and those like me who believe 1 John 1:7 and 3:4-10 believes in Romans 6 and 8:9 and knows Romans 7 in context is about those who were under the law in their own strength. But praise God we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF we have the Spirit. And those who don't have the Spirit do not belong to Christ. We are dead to sin.

I expect from your remark about me that you believe grace is "unmerited favor" and that the blood of Jesus covers our past, present, and future sins. Am I right?

Romans 7 is the struggle of the babe in Christ who has a weak faith and is trying to be justified by his works.

Romans 8 is the same Christian who has realized that the works path is a dead end and has learned to live by faith alone.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Romans 7 is the struggle of the babe in Christ who has a weak faith and is trying to be justified by his works.

Romans 8 is the same Christian who has realized that the works path is a dead end and has learned to live by faith alone.

Maybe another version will help you understand Paul is still talking about the law and sin.

Don’t you understand yet, dear Jewish brothers in Christ, that when a person dies the law no longer holds him in its power?

2 Let me illustrate: when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, she is no longer bound to him; the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 Then she can marry someone else if she wants to. That would be wrong while he was alive, but it is perfectly all right after he dies.

4 Your “husband,” your master, used to be the Jewish law; but you “died,” as it were, with Christ on the cross; and since you are “dead,” you are no longer “married to the law,” and it has no more control over you. Then you came back to life again when Christ did and are a new person. And now you are “married,” so to speak, to the one who rose from the dead, so that you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5 When your old nature was still active, sinful desires were at work within you, making you want to do whatever God said not to and producing sinful deeds, the rotting fruit of death. 6 But now you need no longer worry about the Jewish laws and customs because you “died” while in their captivity, and now you can really serve God; not in the old way, mechanically obeying a set of rules, but in the new way, with all of your hearts and minds.*

7 Well then, am I suggesting that these laws of God are evil? Of course not! No, the law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known the sin in my heart—the evil desires that are hidden there—if the law had not said, “You must not have evil desires in your heart.” 8 But sin used this law against evil desires by reminding me that such desires are wrong, and arousing all kinds of forbidden desires within me! Only if there were no laws to break would there be no sinning.

9 That is why I felt fine so long as I did not understand what the law really demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized that I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die. 10 So as far as I was concerned, the good law which was supposed to show me the way of life resulted instead in my being given the death penalty. 11 Sin fooled me by taking the good laws of God and using them to make me guilty of death. 12 But still, you see, the law itself was wholly right and good.

13 But how can that be? Didn’t the law cause my doom? How then can it be good? No, it was sin, devilish stuff that it is, that used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So you can see how cunning and deadly and damnable it is. For it uses God’s good laws for its own evil purposes.

14 The law is good, then, and the trouble is not there but with me because I am sold into slavery with Sin as my owner.

15 I don’t understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I can’t. I do what I don’t want to—what I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience proves that I agree with these laws I am breaking. 17 But I can’t help myself because I’m no longer doing it. It is sin inside me that is stronger than I am that makes me do these evil things.

18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn I can’t make myself do right. I want to but I can’t. 19 When I want to do good, I don’t; and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 Now if I am doing what I don’t want to, it is plain where the trouble is: sin still has me in its evil grasp.

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free. So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 For the power of the life-giving Spirit—and this power is mine through Christ Jesus—has freed me from the vicious circle of sin and death.

 

[bugkiller]

.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hello Stuart.

In general, the Gentiles in the first century were not well educated. I doubt whether many Gentiles would have understood Paul's letter. I know that the apostle Peter even had trouble understanding, what Paul was talking about, in fact he said so.

Even today, tremendous debate surrounds the letter to the Romans. The debate occurs because people are not familiar enough with the letter. I struggled with this letter for years myself. Understanding the letter to the Romans is not a walk in the park.

Not all Gentiles would have trouble reading, though most would not be able to read this letter. We are talking about Gentiles in the first century, that is two thousand years ago.

The letter to the Romans probably created more issues than what it intended to correct.
The letter to the Romans is a very complex letter, not a letter that you can treat lightly.

We are not talking about the ten commandments, the text is talking about the law.
There is a difference between the phrase, the law, and the phrase, the ten commandments. The formal definition of the Gospel is provided in 1 Corinthians 15.

When you say, 'the law', do you mean the ten commandments?

You don't need the law to obtain a conviction of sin. You would not believe how many people become Christians because of alcohol and drug problems. How many woman attend church because of marriage issues, e.t.c.

My take is the Bible is not written for or to everyone. I will even go so far as to say it is not written for the carnal/pseudo christian who take a religious slant on what they believe. Everyone can judge for themselves what I said. I know many religious christians and believe most of them are real Christians.

bugkiller

 

[bloodygrace]

Maybe another version will help you understand Paul is still talking about the law and sin.

Don’t you understand yet, dear Jewish brothers in Christ, that when a person dies the law no longer holds him in its power?

2 Let me illustrate: when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, she is no longer bound to him; the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 Then she can marry someone else if she wants to. That would be wrong while he was alive, but it is perfectly all right after he dies.

4 Your “husband,” your master, used to be the Jewish law; but you “died,” as it were, with Christ on the cross; and since you are “dead,” you are no longer “married to the law,” and it has no more control over you. Then you came back to life again when Christ did and are a new person. And now you are “married,” so to speak, to the one who rose from the dead, so that you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5 When your old nature was still active, sinful desires were at work within you, making you want to do whatever God said not to and producing sinful deeds, the rotting fruit of death. 6 But now you need no longer worry about the Jewish laws and customs because you “died” while in their captivity, and now you can really serve God; not in the old way, mechanically obeying a set of rules, but in the new way, with all of your hearts and minds.*

7 Well then, am I suggesting that these laws of God are evil? Of course not! No, the law is not sinful, but it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known the sin in my heart—the evil desires that are hidden there—if the law had not said, “You must not have evil desires in your heart.” 8 But sin used this law against evil desires by reminding me that such desires are wrong, and arousing all kinds of forbidden desires within me! Only if there were no laws to break would there be no sinning.

9 That is why I felt fine so long as I did not understand what the law really demanded. But when I learned the truth, I realized that I had broken the law and was a sinner, doomed to die. 10 So as far as I was concerned, the good law which was supposed to show me the way of life resulted instead in my being given the death penalty. 11 Sin fooled me by taking the good laws of God and using them to make me guilty of death. 12 But still, you see, the law itself was wholly right and good.

13 But how can that be? Didn’t the law cause my doom? How then can it be good? No, it was sin, devilish stuff that it is, that used what was good to bring about my condemnation. So you can see how cunning and deadly and damnable it is. For it uses God’s good laws for its own evil purposes.

14 The law is good, then, and the trouble is not there but with me because I am sold into slavery with Sin as my owner.

15 I don’t understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I can’t. I do what I don’t want to—what I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience proves that I agree with these laws I am breaking. 17 But I can’t help myself because I’m no longer doing it. It is sin inside me that is stronger than I am that makes me do these evil things.

18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn I can’t make myself do right. I want to but I can’t. 19 When I want to do good, I don’t; and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 Now if I am doing what I don’t want to, it is plain where the trouble is: sin still has me in its evil grasp.

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free. So there is now no condemnation awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 For the power of the life-giving Spirit—and this power is mine through Christ Jesus—has freed me from the vicious circle of sin and death.

The Holy Spirit guides me from right and wrong now so I am dead to the law. Maybe one day you will be dead too.

 

[bugkiller]

The point where your speculation failed is when you admit that the Jews in the church of Rome have access to scripture and that they are in the same congregation as the gentile Christians. Now we have a congregation that DOES have access to scripture even by your own definition

Protestants favor the idea of testing all doctrine and tradition "sola scriptura" your speculation has led you down a very non-scriptura path so far such that now you argue non-scriptura even in a local congregation where you already admit that they have access to scripture. You have defeated your own "access" argument at that point.

Are sure you want to continue digging that whole deeper? At some point - just throw away the shovel.

Move to the next point.

Did he took a lesson from you? You make it sound like he did.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

The Holy Spirit guides me from right and wrong now so I am dead to the law. Maybe one day you will be dead too.

this sums up the opposing view - quite well. It is a keeper.

 

[BobRyan]

My take is the Bible is not written for or to everyone.

This is another excellent summation of the opposing view.

 

[bloodygrace]

this sums up the opposing view - quite well. It is a keeper.

SDA call the Holy Spirit an 'it' so that pretty much tells you they are destitute.

 

[bugkiller]

I dint think you and klutedavid understand romans

Maybe we just do not agree with you and you seem to call that ignorance.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Why ask me, just tell me. You believe you understand romans better than I do

Cause I'm pro grace.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

We are delivered from the law by keeping the holy laws of God through the Holy Spirit who has changed our nature. We are dead to sin. Does the struggle of Romans 7 feel like someone who has power over sin and has no more struggle with it?

It appears you are talking about a different Law of God than the rest of us. Also I do not believe you get what Paul is talking about. Read the next chapter.

bugkiller