Jesus' commandments - opposed to His Fathers Commandments? - Really?

[1stcenturylady]

Under the New Covenant the LAW of God known to Jeremiah is "written on the heart and mind" according to Hebrews 8:6-10.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible - therefore the saints comply with scripture Romans 8:4-9 instead of trying to delete it.



Indeed - He is not promoting rebellion against His own Word.

Notice how Christ "affirms" what He calls 'The Word of God" here? And He does so by explicit quote of "the Word"

Mark 7:6-13

Yes, a Christian ESTABLISHES the law by the power of the Holy Spirit to not break it. "Love God with your whole heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." I agree.

 

[Bob S]

Yes, a Christian ESTABLISHES the law by the power of the Holy Spirit to not break it. "Love God with your whole heart, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." I agree.

I am trying to digest what you wrote, You agree with BR that what is written on our hearts is the old covenant warmed over? He thumps that because it would throw his Sabbath belief in a dither if he admitted what is written on or hearts is the law of love. 1Jn3:19-24

Remember the real old covenant law was 613 commands. When the writer of Hebrews the new covenant he wrote that it is not like the Mosaic covenant, it is a better covenant with better promises. That certainly does not, in any way, describe the old covenant.

I have, over and over, written that if the Sabbath command is written on our hearts people would be flocking to get in the doors on Sabbath. Stores would have to close because there wouldn't be any business. SDAs wouldn't have to spend millions of their flocks hard earned dollars trying to convince people they have the "true" message.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I have, over and over, written that if the Sabbath command is written on our hearts people would be flocking to get in the doors on Sabbath. Stores would have to close because there wouldn't be any business. SDAs wouldn't have to spend millions of their flocks hard earned dollars trying to convince people they have the "true" message.

Don't start agreeing with me!

 

[bugkiller]

There is a thread entitled:

If you commit sin are you still of God.

It has over 150 pages in it. I cant scroll through it all to find what you seek. However, why not ask istcentury lady if she told me:

No one can be saved until they have ceased ALL sin( faultlessly observed the law)
And
If a christian commits sin( doesn't observe the law) they are immediatley placed in an unsaved state.
I'm sure she will not lie, and commit sin, but answer truthfully

In fact, why not read the entire thread, you might find it illuminating. You might even find you totally agree with me concerning the subject of grace, now there's a thought!

The person who started the thread believes If you commit any sin once saved you are immediately placed in a condemned state. Ist centurylady fully supports this persons views, as you will see if you read the thread.
It might be good if Bob S read it also!!

Maybe that is the way you read her. Currently her posts do not show that.

bugkiller

 

[stuart lawrence]

Maybe that is the way you read her. Currently her posts do not show that.

bugkiller

Read on

 

[BobRyan]

Historically -

some folks "felt like" it was ok to burn protestants at the stake - and God was "ok with it" -- no problem at all.
some folds "felt like" tormenting Catholics was "ok" and "felt" that God had no problem with it.
among Mormons many used to "feel like" God was "ok" with polygamy.
Many folks "feel like" it is ok to make images for bowing down before and promising to serve the beings that they represent.

The idea of "do what you feel like doing - because whatever you feel god approves of ... well He really does approve of it -- since you "feel" that way".

Never provides good substitute for actually reading the Word of God to SEE what HE says He approves of ... now that we all actually have Bibles.

The idea here is that if you "don't mind" living in violation to whatever command of God you happen to find in the Bible - then it is not part of 'your Bible' -- not part of the New Covenant "for you".

I have, over and over, written that if the Sabbath command is written on our hearts people would be flocking to get in the doors on Sabbath.

This explains why Christ was so poplar with everyone ... and yet bowing down before images and promising to serve those whom they represent is almost nonexistent.

 

[BobRyan]

Remember the real old covenant law was 613 commands.

And the NT has 1050 commands.

Is that some sort of funny "bible test" of something?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am trying to digest what you wrote, You agree with BR that what is written on our hearts is the old covenant warmed over? He thumps that because it would throw his Sabbath belief in a dither if he admitted what is written on or hearts is the law of love. 1Jn3:19-24

Remember the real old covenant law was 613 commands. When the writer of Hebrews the new covenant he wrote that it is not like the Mosaic covenant, it is a better covenant with better promises. That certainly does not, in any way, describe the old covenant.

I have, over and over, written that if the Sabbath command is written on our hearts people would be flocking to get in the doors on Sabbath. Stores would have to close because there wouldn't be any business. SDAs wouldn't have to spend millions of their flocks hard earned dollars trying to convince people they have the "true" message.

Bob S, isn't the Ten Commandments based on the eternal law of God - loving God with all your heart, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor"? The 10 Commandments is a Covenant (Exodus 34:28). Throughout the Bible each time a covenant is made, there is a sign of that covenant. For instance the Abrahamic Covenant; God promised Abraham that the Seed would come through his line. The sign of God's covenant with Abraham was Circumcision, which is very much related to the seed of a man. When that covenant was fulfilled in Christ, the sign of circumcision was no longer a law. It was done away with, right? However, the Seed/Christ remained. That is the same as the fulfillment of the covenant of the Ten Commandments. The laws of God remained, but we now keep them through walking in the Spirit, which does more than just keeping those commandments, but makes us love. It's sign was the Sabbath (Exodus 31:13). REMEMBER the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. The sign of our New Covenant is based on the blood of Jesus, without which we would still be sinners (Romans 6:1-7). The representation of the blood is the CUP of the New Covenant. "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me." Do you see the parallel? Jesus is the substance of the sign of the old covenant, and He is also the substance of the sign of the new covenant. The sign of the fulfilled covenant is what is done away with, not the law. A person is no longer judged if they don't keep the Sabbath, but they sure are if they kill somebody and never repent. Do you see? And remember Romans 14. If Bob R wants to keep the Sabbath because of his conscience, then he is honoring God. It is not a sin to keep the Sabbath, even though a new sign has replaced it. And if I keep everyday the same in honor of God, then I'm not sinning either with regard to the Sabbath. Let each person be convinced in their own mind.

 

[bugkiller]

The idea here is that if you "don't mind" living in violation to whatever command of God you happen to find in the Bible - then it is not part of 'your Bible' -- not part of the New Covenant "for you".

One can not violate a law that has no jurisdiction over them. The Christian is not under (obligated to) the law per Rom 7:6 and 6:14, 15. Besides the law and prophets were until John according to LK 16:16.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob S, isn't the Ten Commandments based on the eternal law of God - loving God with all your heart, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor"? The 10 Commandments is a Covenant (Exodus 34:28). Throughout the Bible each time a covenant is made, there is a sign of that covenant. For instance the Abrahamic Covenant; God promised Abraham that the Seed would come through his line. The sign of God's covenant with Abraham was Circumcision, which is very much related to the seed of a man. When that covenant was fulfilled in Christ, the sign of circumcision was no longer a law. It was done away with, right? However, the Seed/Christ remained. That is the same as the fulfillment of the covenant of the Ten Commandments. The laws of God remained, but we now keep them through walking in the Spirit, which does more than just keeping those commandments, but makes us love. It's sign was the Sabbath (Exodus 31:13). REMEMBER the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. The sign of our New Covenant is based on the blood of Jesus, without which we would still be sinners (Romans 6:1-7). The representation of the blood is the CUP of the New Covenant. "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me." Do you see the parallel? Jesus is the substance of the sign of the old covenant, and He is also the substance of the sign of the new covenant. The sign of the fulfilled covenant is what is done away with, not the law. A person is no longer judged if they don't keep the Sabbath, but they sure are if they kill somebody and never repent. Do you see? And remember Romans 14. If Bob R wants to keep the Sabbath because of his conscience, then he is honoring God. It is not a sin to keep the Sabbath, even though a new sign has replaced it. And if I keep everyday the same in honor of God, then I'm not sinning either with regard to the Sabbath. Let each person be convinced in their own mind.

That is why I accepted the invitation Jesus gave to sabbath keepers in Mat 11:28-30. Jesus provides the rest they could not enter into.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

One can not violate a law that has no jurisdiction over them

That part is true.

Hence Ephesians 6:2 pointing out that the unit of Ten still holds up even in the NT -
The unit of Law in which the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise"...

As we all know.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That is why I accepted the invitation Jesus gave to sabbath keepers in Mat 11:28-30. Jesus provides the rest they could not enter into.

bugkiller

One thing I should further explain. If you walk in the Spirit, you are not under the law. However, if you break the law, you are judged by it. But, not just the Ten Commandments, but love. Therefore, if you hate your brother, you put yourself into God's judgment. In other words, you don't have to go so far as to actually murder stated in the Ten Commandments. The laws of Jesus are more strict than the Fathers. However, He gives us His magic weapon - His own Holy Spirit. He provides the power to live above the law.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That part is true.

Hence Ephesians 6:2 pointing out that the unit of Ten still holds up even in the NT -
The unit of Law in which the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise"...

As we all know.

I know you "liked" my post, but did you actually read it all. I say why the Sabbath has been done away. Go read it again, because you may not want to un"like" it. ;( But, then again, I'm hoping you will learn something, and the same light bulb epiphany will happen to you too, like it did for me back in 1970.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That part is true.

Hence Ephesians 6:2 pointing out that the unit of Ten still holds up even in the NT -
The unit of Law in which the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise"...

As we all know.

I know you "liked" my post, but did you actually read it all. I say why the Sabbath has been done away. Go read it again, because you may want to un"like" it. ;( But, then again, I'm hoping you will learn something, and the same light bulb epiphany will happen to you too, like it did for me back in 1970.

 

[BobRyan]

referring to post
Yesterday at 10:21 PM#328

I know you "liked" my post, but did you actually read it all. I say why the Sabbath has been done away

Good point. Sorry for the confusion - the end of your post did not agree with the actual Bible .. where we find that for all eternity after the cross "ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath" as the weekly cycle and in the New Earth "From New Moon to New Moon" as the monthly cycle.

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" for all eternity - after the cross in the NEW Earth.

Not saying that Christ did not perfectly fulfill the command "do not take God's name in vain" -- just saying that compliance with it "does not delete it". Obviously.

so then... I am still going to stick with the Bible on this one.

 

[BobRyan]

REMEMBER the Sabbath Day to keep it holy. The sign of our New Covenant is based on the blood of Jesus, without which we would still be sinners (Romans 6:1-7). The representation of the blood is the CUP of the New Covenant. "Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me." Do you see the parallel? Jesus is the substance of the sign of the old covenant, and He is also the substance of the sign of the new covenant. The sign of the fulfilled covenant is what is done away with, not the law. A person is no longer judged if they don't keep the Sabbath, but they sure are if they kill somebody and never repent. Do you see? And remember Romans 14. If Bob R wants to keep the Sabbath because of his conscience, then he is honoring God. It is not a sin to keep the Sabbath, even though a new sign has replaced it. And if I keep everyday the same in honor of God, then I'm not sinning either with regard to the Sabbath. Let each person be convinced in their own mind.

Worship to God -- owed to God - as Creator came to mankind in Genesis 1-2:4 as even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars will admit. (It just does not get any easier than that).

And worship to God - owed to God - as Creator CONTINUES in the NT - as we see in Revelation 14:6-7 7 perfectly declares for all NT saints in its quote of the Sabbath commandment language of Exodus 20:11

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Worship to God -- owed to God - as Creator came to mankind in Genesis 1-2:4 as even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars will admit. (It just does not get any easier than that).

And worship to God - owed to God - as Creator CONTINUES in the NT - as we see in Revelation 14:6-7 7 perfectly declares for all NT saints in its quote of the Sabbath commandment language of Exodus 20:11

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

As I said, let each be convinced in His own mind. I am convinced that because they did not have Jesus as their Redeemer under the Law in the wilderness, they needed a reminder of the Creator, thus to REMEMBER the Sabbath Day. But when the Creator came to earth, we didn't need a reminder, we had the true substance - the Creator Himself, who became man and shed His blood, thus the Cup. Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me. I know Adventists do both signs. But, just as circumcision, the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant, is no longer applicable to us once the Seed was realized, because now it is the circumcision of the heart; the same goes for the Sabbath, the sign of the Covenant with the Jews which laws are now written on our hearts, when the Creator Jesus came and died for us. The new sign of the Cup of the New Covenant, has replaced the old sign.

 

[BobRyan]

As I said, let each be convinced in His own mind. I am convinced that because they did not have Jesus as their Redeemer under the Law in the wilderness, they needed a reminder of the Creator, thus to REMEMBER the Sabbath Day

1. As Exodus 20:11 and Genesis 1-2:3 remind us -- Sabbath commandment given BEFORE there was ever a wilderness or a Jew.

2. Nothing in the actual Bible says "Sabbath given for those who do not have Christ". Same thing is true for "Do not take God's name in vain".

3. Hebrews 4:1 says "we have had the Gospel preached to us - just as THEY also"
4. 1 Cor 10:4 "THEY all drank from the same SPIRITUAL Rock -- and that Rock was CHRIST"
5. Moses AND Elijah stand WITH Christ - BEFORE the Cross - in Matt 17
6. "The GOSPEL" was preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8
7. "Abraham SAW My day and was glad" John 8.

I am going to stick with the Bible on these details.

. But when the Creator came to earth, we didn't need a reminder, we had the true substance

By contrast - the actual Bible says that when the Creator came to Earth the first thing He said was "DO NOT Imagine that I have come to delete/downsize the LAW". Matthew 5.

Even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship will admit to this Bible detail.

- the Creator Himself, who became man and shed His blood, thus the Cup. Do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me.

"As oft as you do this - you do show the Lord's death until He comes"

The Lord's Supper replaces - PASSOVER "Christ our Passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5.

Bible details matter and as said before even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars accept this Bible fact about Passover and the Lord's Supper... specifically that the TEN Commandments - all TEN remain according to the Bible.

I know Adventists do both signs.

And so also do the majority of pro-Sunday scholars consider that they too are keeping the Sabbath commandment (as edited by their traditions) and Passover as the Lord's Supper.

That is not where we differ with them.

But, just as circumcision, the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant, is no longer applicable to us

1. Circumcision is not in the TEN Commandments.
2. Circumcision never applied to gentiles or women
3. Circumcision is a part of the ceremonial law that in 1Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts with Moral law.
4. The UNIT of Moral Law that Paul identified in Ephesians 6:2 is the TEN Commandments.

Sabbath "for mankind" as it as GIVEN -- Mark 2:27 -- according to Christ.
Sabbath "for ALL MANKIND" Isaiah 66:23 - even in OT this is the scope for it.
Sabbath for gentiles in OT - Isaiah 56:1-8.

Pointed out dozens of times. Bible texts ignored even more often than that

============================ my proposal for improved communication.

Next time you post a view you have already posted... add to it my Bible text response that I have already posted on why the Sabbath remains.

I will do the same for you. Next time I post a Bible text proof that the Sabbath continues -- even for all eternity for all mankind in the New Earth etc - I will try to remember if you ever responded to the point - and what you said, and will add that to the end of my post as my understanding of your "answer".

Then you can correct my response of how I thought you answered it.

And I will post a correction to your response that states how you think I answered your point already..

=====

A few rounds like that -- and pretty soon we will both become pretty accurate on what the other person's view is - even if we do not accept it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1. As Exodus 20:11 and Genesis 1-2:3 remind us -- Sabbath commandment given BEFORE there was ever a wilderness or a Jew.

2. Nothing in the actual Bible says "Sabbath given for those who do not have Christ". Same thing is true for "Do not take God's name in vain".

3. Hebrews 4:1 says "we have had the Gospel preached to us - just as THEY also"
4. 1 Cor 10:4 "THEY all drank from the same SPIRITUAL Rock -- and that Rock was CHRIST"
5. Moses AND Elijah stand WITH Christ - BEFORE the Cross - in Matt 17
6. "The GOSPEL" was preached to Abraham Galatians 3:8
7. "Abraham SAW My day and was glad" John 8.

I am going to stick with the Bible on these details.



By contrast - the actual Bible says that when the Creator came to Earth the first thing He said was "DO NOT Imagine that I have come to delete/downsize the LAW". Matthew 5.

Even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship will admit to this Bible detail.



"As oft as you do this - you do show the Lord's death until He comes"

The Lord's Supper replaces - PASSOVER "Christ our Passover has been slain" 1 Cor 5.

Bible details matter and as said before even the majority of pro-Sunday scholars accept this Bible fact about Passover and the Lord's Supper... specifically that the TEN Commandments - all TEN remain according to the Bible.



And so also do the majority of pro-Sunday scholars consider that they too are keeping the Sabbath commandment (as edited by their traditions) and Passover as the Lord's Supper.

That is not where we differ with them.



1. Circumcision is not in the TEN Commandments.
2. Circumcision never applied to gentiles or women
3. Circumcision is a part of the ceremonial law that in 1Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts with Moral law.
4. The UNIT of Moral Law that Paul identified in Ephesians 6:2 is the TEN Commandments.

Sabbath "for mankind" as it as GIVEN -- Mark 2:27 -- according to Christ.
Sabbath "for ALL MANKIND" Isaiah 66:23 - even in OT this is the scope for it.
Sabbath for gentiles in OT - Isaiah 56:1-8.

Pointed out dozens of times. Bible texts ignored even more often than that

I really don't care if many Sunday keepers call Sunday the Sabbath. That proves nothing, except ignorance. They think they are still under the law, when, because of the Holy Spirit, we are above it. We are in the New Covenant of the heart, not the oldness of the letter. When we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. You may have, but I don't recall you ever saying what you believe not being under the law means.

 

[BobRyan]

I really don't care if many Sunday keepers call Sunday the Sabbath. That proves nothing, except ignorance.

It is possible as you say that both the Bible Sabbath affirming scholars and the pro-Sunday scholars are all wrong and you are right.

But there is such a thing as "objectivity" and when a Bible detail is sooooo incredibly obvious that the scholars on BOTH sides of the debate -- can see it clearly.

Well that is pretty rare -- and a level of objectivity -- that is a wake-up call for all those whose tradition insists that they ignore the detail.

 

[BobRyan]

they are still under the law, when, because of the Holy Spirit, we are above it

You "appear" to define "under the Law" as - "It still defines what sin is - and is the behavior applicable to Christians".

AS IF "do not take God's name in vain" would be bad thing to do because it would mean you were "under the law" of the TEN Commandments.

We are in the New Covenant of the heart, not the oldness of the letter -- so then time to actually "LOOD" at the text of the New Covenant and SEE that Jeremiah was talking about the moral law of God - known to himself and his readers - and it is UNCHANGED in the exact quote of it that we find in Hebrews 8:6-10.

. When we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. You may have, but I don't recall you ever saying what you believe not being under the law means.

Paul defines the term as "not under the condemnation of the LAW". He does not define it as "to not take God's name in vain is to remain under-the-law" in that negative sense that he uses the term.

Paul not only kept the moral law - including "Every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4 - but he also continued to observe ceremonial law - so he was FAR from trying to delete one of the TEN Commandments for Christians.

Acts 21
“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

hint: notice they never accuse him of telling Jews not to keep Sabbath or any other of the Ten Commandments.