Mohammad in the bible

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Muslim-UK

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The Wilderness of Paran is not Mecca.
From the rest of the article you posted, your position is Ishmael pbuh was settled in the Desert of Paran, which is in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt and not Arabia.

All of Ishmael's sons; Nabajoth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, Kedemah all settled in Egypt.

So Egyptian Africans should be closely related to the Jews, yet we find Arabs and Jews are genetically almost impossible to tell apart, sharing the same Y chromosome;

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion.

Next Archaeology shows Ishmael's Sons lived in Arabia as tent dwellers.

In Arabic and Hebrew the term arab means "nomad" (synonymous with bedouin), and originally referred only to the nomadic people who roamed the Arabian Peninsula. Later, it was used to designate all the inhabitants of the peninsula--both nomads and town-dwellers.

We read about the nomadic nature of Ishmael and his sons, when the Bible refers to the tents of Kedar (Psalm 120:5; Song 1:5); or when it speaks of Arabians pitching their tents (Isaiah 13:20); or when it mentions the caravans of Tema, one of Ishmael’s sons (Job 6:19); or when it compares Israel with somebody sitting by the road like “an Arabian in the wilderness” (Jeremiah 3:2). Even though such nomadic nature would somewhat change in time, the Bible still uses those terms in respect to Ishmael and his descendants, when addressing prophetic events of the future.

Arab are also known as "those who speak* clearly". *'Recite'

Perhaps another meaning of New Song:



The Kedarites are mentioned in a number of places in the Bible, and always referred to as nomads.

Psalm 120:5 This Psalm is a cry of distress, as the writer has fled and lives in a place called Meshech in the tents of the Kedarites.

Isaiah 42:11 Kedar is mentioned in a song of praise.

Jeremiah 2:10 The children of Israel are advised to check with Kedar and see if it is an ordinary thing for a people to forsake their gods and turn to others.

Jeremiah 49:28 This passage presents us with a prophecy against Arabia (Hazor and Kedar) foretelling that Nebuchadnezzar a king of Babylon will destroy them.

Ezekiel 27:21 In this lament over the city of Tyre, it is mentioned that Arabia, and the princes of Kedar traded lambs, rams, and goats with Tyre.

The Holy Bible locates Paran near Israel (Canaan) and Egypt, south of Judah. John L. McKenzie in his Dictionary of the Bible notes:

Paran (Hb pa'ran, most frequently the name of a desert region). The place name Elparan (Gn 14:6) no doubt is associated with the desert; this place is thought to be identical with Elath* by some scholars. The desert of Paran was the home of the Ishmaelites (Gn 21:21). It was, the itinerary according to P (cf. PENTATEUCH), reached by the Israelites after the desert of Sinai (Nm 10:12), and they camped in this desert for some time (Nm 10:12; 13:3, 26, mission and return of the scouts). In Dt 1:1 Paran is vaguely defined as a place in the desert. Hadad of Edom passed through the desert of Paran on his journey from Midian* to Egypt (1 Kings 11:18). The mountains of Paran are the place from which the theophany* appears (Dt 33:2; Hab. 3:3); like most other names mentioned in the theophanies, Paran reflects the region S of Judah. The desert of Paran is probably that region of the Negeb* which lies S of Kadesh-barnea*. (McKenzie, p. 637)

The same John L.Mckenzie who wrote papers against Islam. I wonder why he would push for Paran being in Egypt?
Unfortunately for him unbiased Christian Scholars refute him:

Who is Saudi Arabia in the Bible?
Many archeological and historical researchers and Bible commentaries have understood for a long time that the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham and Sarah’s Egyptian maid, Hagar. We read the following prophecy about Ishmael in Genesis 16:7-12:

“Now the Angel of the LORD found [Hagar] by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. And He said, ‘Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?’ She said, ‘I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.’ The Angel of the LORD said to her, ‘Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.’ Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, ‘I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.’

The Critical and Experimental Commentary by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown says: “… even in dwelling with his brethren, would he maintain his characteristic hostility; and… he shall… dwell in the presence of his brethren, viz, in Arabia.”

We read that subsequently, Abraham sent away his concubines and his sons of his concubines, including Hagar and Ishmael, “eastward… to the country of the east” (Genesis 25:6). It is commonly agreed that Hagar and Ishmael settled in the land which is known today as Saudi Arabia, where Ishmael also died “in the presence” or “east of” all his brethren (Genesis 25:18).

The prophesied twelve sons or princes of Ishmael are listed in Genesis 25:12-16. They include Tema, Dumah and the most prominent son, Kedar (compare Ezekiel 27:21; Psalm 120:5; Isaiah 21:13-17). This means that Arabs are sometimes referred to in Scripture as Arabia; Ishmaelites; Hagrites or Hagarenes in the Authorized Version (descendants of Hagar, Psalm 83:6); or as the tents or princes or people of Kedar. As an aside, Ishmael’s daughter Mahalath or Basemath married Esau, the first-born son of Isaac and twin brother of Jacob (Genesis 28:9; 36:3).

Common names among modern Arabs are Ibrahim for Abraham and Ismail for Ishmael. Funk and Wagnall’s New Encyclopedia states in volume 13 that “Muslims regard themselves as the descendants of Ishmael.” The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary says that “all Arabs claim descent from Ishmael.” The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia says that the “Arabs themselves derive their descent from Ishmael.”

Who is Saudi Arabia in the Bible? | Church of the Eternal God

Compare the following OT passages:

"In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazazon Tamar." Genesis 14:5-7

"On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. They set out, this first time, at the LORD's command through Moses." Numbers 10:11-13

"So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back. After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran." Numbers 12:15-16

Abraham sent his wife Hagar and Son Ishmael, peace be upon them all “eastward… to the country of the east” (Genesis 25:6). It is commonly agreed that Hagar and Ishmael settled in the land which is known today as Saudi Arabia, where Ishmael also died “in the presence” or “east of” all his brethren (Genesis 25:18).

We read that at the time of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, descendants of Ishmael’s second-born son Kedar, the “men of the East,” would be conquered, compare Jeremiah 49:28-29. <<<East of Iraq

Midian:

Exodus 3:1 plainly identifies Mount Horeb (Sinai) as being in Midian: “Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.” Here, there are two important issues. First, the region of “Midian” referred to here is undeniably the same as present-day Saudi Arabia. Second, at the traditional site of Mt. Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula, there is nothing that would cause it to be geographically identified with the “back” of a desert, in distinction from its surroundings.

In light of the above, more verses on Paran:

"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.

"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"

"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

The wilderness of Paran: The Great and Terrible wilderness from which God dawned upon Mt. Sinai! (Deut 1:19)

Unless Muslims want to claim that Moses and the Israelites traveled from Sinai all the way to Mecca and back during their 40-year desert wandering, it becomes quite evident that Paran is nowhere near Mecca.
What's Moses pbuh got to do with the New Song from Kedar?

Incidentally some Scholars do think Moses pbuh made Pilgrimage to Mecca:



Continuing further:

"Now Samuel died; and all Israel assembled and mourned for him. They buried him at his home in Ramah. Then David got up and went down to the wilderness of Paran." 1 Samuel 25:1

Are we to assume that David went to Mecca after Samuel's death?
Now you bring King David pbuh into it :/

I showed in post 23 Mohammad in the bible to Stuart Lawrence, references to Kedar being in Arabia, and showed David pbuh entrusted the Quraish Tribe to be guardians over GOD's House in Mecca.

Say no more :)
 
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dougangel

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22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

"Israel is my firstborn son" is not literal. it's symbolic. so it is an allusion and that whole story has prophetic implications all through it. Jesus went to Egypt and came out of her. Jesus was tempted in the wildness for 40 days. the first born was covered by the blood. I can get you a whole list if you want.

If Jesus is spiritual Israel. Jesus is the 1 and only son of God.

God bless
 
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dougangel

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showed in post 23 Mohammad in the bible to Stuart Lawrence, references to Kedar being in Arabia, and showed David pbuh entrusted the Quraish Tribe to be guardians over GOD's House in Mecca.

Jesus has a linage.
There's no linage to Mohammad.
Those Arabian places are mentioned a few times in the bible because there close to Israel. And different people had dealings with those places and people. David being one of them.

God bless.
 
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Robban

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22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

"Israel is my firstborn son" is not literal. it's symbolic. so it is an allusion and that whole story has prophetic implications all through it. Jesus went to Egypt and came out of her. Jesus was tempted in the wildness for 40 days. the first born was covered by the blood. I can get you a whole list if you want.

If Jesus is spiritual Israel. Jesus is the 1 and only son of God.

God bless

v22
And you shall say to Pharaoh, "So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel"

v23,
So I say to you , send out my son so that he will worship Me,
but if you refuse to send him out,
I am going to slay your firstborn.

It was not something that had happened yet, it was a warning, and would be the last plague. Pharaoh had the ability to repent but refused.

Rashi comments,
Firstborn, an expression of greatness, simple meaning.
 
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Muslim-UK

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danny ski

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22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

"Israel is my firstborn son" is not literal. it's symbolic. so it is an allusion and that whole story has prophetic implications all through it. Jesus went to Egypt and came out of her. Jesus was tempted in the wildness for 40 days. the first born was covered by the blood. I can get you a whole list if you want.

If Jesus is spiritual Israel. Jesus is the 1 and only son of God.

God bless
Again, it's not a prophecy. And we don't get to choose if Gd's meaning was literal or not. Especially in a plain text, it says what it says. In other words-no spin.
 
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dougangel

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Again, it's not a prophecy. And we don't get to choose if Gd's meaning was literal or not. Especially in a plain text, it says what it says. In other words-no spin.

A country can't literally be a first born son. It's symbolic or non-literal.
If Jesus is spiritual Israel's 1 only son of God.It can have a prophetic allusion to it.
 
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danny ski

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A country can't literally be a first born son. It's symbolic or non-literal.
If Jesus is spiritual Israel's 1 only son of God.It can have a prophetic allusion to it.
Gd is not talking about a country. He is talking about a people. Not only that, we have angels being called sons of Gd. Solomon is called a son of Gd. The whole nation in Deuteronomy is called "the children of the Lord your Gd" . The prophet told us that the Israel was Gd's son and Ephraim is His first born. So, not that unusual. Actually it's so common it is a theme. Where else would Jesus get the idea to call Gd his father? In the Scriptures, like the rest of us.
 
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Muslim-UK

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I would have to see authentic evidence of that.
I showed dna studies done in my response at post 101 confirm Arabs and Jews share almost identical Male ancestry, which means the dna of Syrian based Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi, the 34th Grandson of the Prophet pbuh goes back to Abraham pbuh.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm

Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion.
 
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Muslim-UK

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Muhammad is not the Servant in Isaiah 42:

The Servant in Isaiah 42 is the same Servant in the following Scriptures:

Isaiah 41:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 But you, Israel, My servant,
Jacob
, whom I have chosen,
descendant of Abraham, My friend—
Amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls the best preserved by GOD Almighty was the Great Isaiah Scroll. Scholars from all faiths say it speaks about future events, so I find it odd that Isaiah would prophesy about a Prophet that had passed away more than 1,200 years earlier. Can you throw some light on that please?

Could you also explain verses 42-45

23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the Lord, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

25 Therefore he hath poured upon him* the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.

*Jacob


2j0mm9x.jpg


Do all the Scriptures which mention Kedar refer to Muhammad?

Isaiah 21:16
For the Lord said this to me: “Within one year, as a hired worker counts years, all the glory of Kedar will be gone.
Yes I would imagine so. Kedar did indeed fall from Idolatry, a good many of their men fell in battle, but ultimately when they accepted GOD's will, they sung a New Song and continue to do so 1,400 years on.
 
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Greyy

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plz read this page about the presence of Mohammad in the bible
Muhammad In The Bible
THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6: "
Blessed are those who dwell in Your house;
They will still be praising You. Selah"

5 Blessed is the man whose strength is in You,
Whose heart is set on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca,
They make it a spring;
The rain also covers it with pools


Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.
"The Lord will march out like a champion,AX)'
like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;AZ)'
with a shout he will raise the battle cry
and will triumph over his enemies"

source: Muhammad In The Bible

Did Muhammad have sex with a nine year old girl?
 
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Muslim-UK

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Islam is such an intellectually repugnant religion that it has to use the threat of death and the loss of family to keep people from leaving.

If you religion has to kill people to keep them from leaving, it's safe to say it is dumb.
There no such threat. There was the 'wars of apostasy' following the Prophet's death, as the devil wished to extinguish God's plan. Thankfully the Muslims won, and Islam spread. Once things settled down the Scholars gave verdicts on when it is permissible to kill an apostate. Treason and inciting disharmony amongst the Muslims being given as justification. Other than that people are free to leave, as there's no compulsion in religion.

Some are people proud and do severe ties of kinship if someone leaves the religion, but that's not from the teachings of Islam.

What's the punishment for apostasy in Christianity?
 
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Greyy

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There no such threat. There was the 'wars of apostasy' following the Prophet's death, as the devil wished to extinguish God's plan. Thankfully the Muslims won, and Islam spread. Once things settled down the Scholars gave verdicts on when it is permissible to kill an apostate. Treason and inciting disharmony amongst the Muslims being given as justification. Other than that people are free to leave, as there's no compulsion in religion.

Some are people proud and do severe ties of kinship if someone leaves the religion, but that's not from the teachings of Islam.

Muslim scholars throughout history have considered apostasy a crime against God and as such is punishable by death.

What's the punishment for apostasy in Christianity?

Intellectual dissent is an expectation in Christianity. Christ taught that the Gospel is spread like seeds, some of which take root in good soil and bear fruit, some never take to it, in some it lasts for a time before losing it.

Islam does practice compulsion in that if you are born into it, you are to stick with it as well are your descendents.

Although that doesn't really bother me as much as a 53 year old man having sexual relations with a nine year old girl. There is nothing like playing dolls with a little girl one day and making her your sexual partner the next.

Cults are kinda funny about letting their leaders have extra wives and sex with children like that.
 
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GeorgeTwo

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You mean the Gospel of John and letters of Paul. Sorry but even they don't make clear mention of a mangod...

One in purpose, and we know this because,

"That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21

Jesus prayed to his father (Luke 23:34) which would not make sense if they were one person. Jesus said the Father alone is God (John 17:3) and quoted the Shema (Mark 12:29)

As for stoning him for claiming divinity, the Jews knew he wasn't and were looking for excuses:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? John 10:34

Nice story, only problem being in the oldest Manuscript it says, "Lord, I believe." <<<Nothing more


We were all before Abraham, all souls existed before GOD gave permission for us to made flesh. Also saying 'I am' doesn't make anyone Divine:

“I am” is said by Paul in Acts 26:29. Do we conclude Paul too is God?

Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.” [1]

The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God

Yes, you guessed it more bad news, and in this case the verse in the oldest Manuscript does not say "...and my God"

In the KJV it reads,
14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. <<<Notice the brackets. 'Only begotten' should be discounted.

Now the verse is agreeable, as stated earlier we were all before Abraham pbuh and when GOD commanded us to be, (using his 'Word) We indeed all came into being. Jesus pbuh differed in that no man was involved and Angel Gabriel personally delivered his soul unto Mary, may God be pleased with her.

You could marvel at Jesus pbuh and his miraculous birth, but do remember Adam pbuh was born without 'any' parents.

If you strip away the falsehood and the words put into the mouth of Jesus pbuh, then Muhammad pbuh was correct and Jesus pbuh was another Great Prophet sent to the Jews preaching pure Monotheism.



May God bless and guide you.

Comment by Carson:

58. [. . .] Jesus [. . .]. If he had wanted to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been simpler to say, ‘Before Abraham was, I was.’ Instead, bringing forward egō eimi found in verses 24, 28, Jesus says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Whatever doubts may attach themselves to whether egō eimi should be taken absolutely in verses 24, 28, here there can be none. Moreover, the strong linguistic connections to Isaiah 40-55 are supported by obvious links: cf. ‘I, the Lord’ — with the first of them and the last — I am he’ (Isaiah 41:4); ‘Yes, and from ancient days I am he’ (Isaiah 43:13). Cf. Psalm 90:2. That the Jews take up stones to kill him presupposes they understand these words as some kind of blasphemous claim to deity. [. . .]

— D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (PNTC), page 358 (Eerdmans, 1991).


Comment by Bruce:

8:57, 58 [. . .]

Jesus’ reply to their protest repeats the affirmation ‘I am He’ (egō eimi), used twice already in this chapter (verses 24, 28), and does so in a way which underlines the magnitude of the claim it expresses. He echoes the language of the God of Israel, who remains the same from everlasting to everlasting: ‘I, the Lord, the first and the last, I am He’ (Isaiah 41:4), How can a man who is ‘not yet fifty years old’ speak like that? Only if he speaks as the Word that had been with God from the beginning and was now incarnate on earth. Abraham looked forward to the time of his incarnation, but he himself existed before his incarnation, before Abraham was born (genesthai), before the worlds were made. The Word of the eternal God cannot be other than eternal. So much in this context is conveyed by egō eimi. And if we suppose that the conversation was carried on in Aramaic or even Hebrew, then Jesus could have uttered the very words ’ ani hu’ [אני היא], as though he were applying them to himself.

— F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, pages 205-206 (Eerdmans, 1983).
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Islam is such an intellectually repugnant religion that it has to use the threat of death and the loss of family to keep people from leaving.

If you religion has to kill people to keep them from leaving, it's safe to say it is dumb.

Perhaps you should re-read the rules.

Statement of Purpose - Christianity and World Religion Statement of Purpose


“Mutual respect means that members will not mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs, or make posts that are disruptive to the peace and harmony of the forum.”
 
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Greyy

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Perhaps you should re-read the rules.

Statement of Purpose - Christianity and World Religion Statement of Purpose


“Mutual respect means that members will not mock, degrade or belittle each others' religious beliefs, or make posts that are disruptive to the peace and harmony of the forum.”

It is against the rules to make a post accusing a member of breaking the rules. Regardless of whether that determination is factual or not.

It's not against the rules to point out that Islam was created a pedophile (as defined by all defintions) and is maintained by the threat of violence. That's a fact.

Here's a creepy photo of Trump and his daughter. It's quite suggestive and the mating parrots don't help.

DonaldTrumpandIvanka1.jpg


That's objective facts. Facts are good.

Oh - you editted the accusation from your post.
 
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