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Baptized in the Spirit
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I believe you, Oscarr! God is not dead. And He isn't off on vacation to some galaxy far, far away, now that the 1st century is past. No, He watches over His Word, to perform it, for those who Abide in Him, and who believe His Word is true and faithful.
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sunshineforJesus
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Note that in verses like 1 Corinthians 14:2, the addition of "unknown" before "tongue" takes away any confusion over which type of tongue Paul is referring to. For if verses like 1 Corinthians 14:2 were mistakenly read as referring to known tongues, such as in Acts 2:4,8, which humans do understand, then it wouldn't make sense for Paul to say that no human can understand such tongues.
Are you thinking of the following passage?
1 Corinthians 14:21 ¶In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
If so, this means that uninterpreted tongues can serve as a sign to non-Christians (1 Corinthians 14:22-23) of their inability to understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), just as Jesus' uninterpreted parables spoken to those who weren't his disciples served the same purpose (Matthew 13:13-15). But this isn't the only purpose for uninterpreted tongues. For they also serve to edify the spirits of the Christians who speak them privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2,4,14), just as interpreted tongues serve to edify a whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5,12-13,26).
Both non-Christians and Spiritually-"unlearned" Christians see uninterpreted tongues as "mad" (1 Corinthians 14:23), while they don't see prophesying as mad (1 Corinthians 14:24). For they can't understand uninterpreted tongues (1 Corinthians 14:2), but they can understand prophesying (1 Corinthians 14:25).
Christians who have been given the Spiritual gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) are the prophets of the church (1 Corinthians 14:29-33; 1 Corinthians 12:28, Ephesians 4:11). When they prophesy, they speak words directly from God, just as when the true prophets of Old Testament Israel prophesied, they spoke words directly from God (e.g. Jeremiah 26:12-13).
Tongues still serve today as a sign to those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who would scorn the refreshing of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19) in their desire to have only parts of scripture instead (Isaiah 28:11-13). And tongues still serve today as a sign to non-Christians (and to Spiritually-"unlearned" Christians who reject the present operation of the Spiritual gifts), whether Jews or Gentiles, of their inability to understand all of the things of God (1 Corinthians 14:22-23).
Are you thinking of the following passage?
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
If so, here, tongues aren't a sign of judgment, but can be a sign and part of the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12) which comes from the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion (Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38, Acts 19:2,6). For tongues edify the spirits of believers who speak them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14), and, when interpreted, tongues edify others (1 Corinthians 14:5b). But because unbelievers and Spiritually-unlearned believers see tongues-speaking as "mad" (crazy) (1 Corinthians 14:23), they scorn the refreshing (Isaiah 28:14,11-12). They refuse to hear it (Isaiah 28:12). They forbid it (1 Corinthians 14:39). They quench it (1 Thessalonians 5:19), if only in a desire to have solely the precepts of scripture (Isaiah 28:12-13).
While it is vital to have the precepts of scripture in order to have correct knowledge and doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4), this is different than the refreshing. Believers should have both. Tongues and some other Spiritual gifts will cease operating (1 Corinthians 13:8-11) only when the need for the refreshing (Isaiah 28:12) and the edification of believers (1 Corinthians 14:4-5) will cease, which will be only when obedient believers become perfect, like Jesus, when they see him face to face at his second coming (1 Corinthians 13:10,12; 1 John 3:2).
Note that speaking in tongues is a sign that a believer has received Holy Spirit baptism. For:
Acts 10:44 ¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Are you thinking of the following verse?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
If so, this means that in that case, just as in some other cases, it is possible for people to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the moment that they are water baptized. But in most cases, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from water baptism, occurring sometime after water baptism, through prayer and the laying on of hands (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6), or sometimes before water baptism (Acts 10:44-48).
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One thing I would like you to consider. If you are saying that on the Day of Pentecost they were not the same type of tongues as in 1 Corinthians 14:2, then read Acts 2 again. Not only were they speaking in tongues, but the supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues was obviously given to the devout Jews who loved God - but not to those who didn't, who just stood there and mocked them. The devout Jews HEARD THEM speaking in each of the groups language. In other words, each Jew heard ALL OF THEM speaking their own language. It was not a cacophony of mixed languages (120 I might add). Each Jew heard ONE language.
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ViaCrucis
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The context Paul is addressing is gathered Christian worship, as such the kind of diversity we see happening on Pentecost due to the pilgrims in the city is likely not going to be an occurrence.
The context of the prophecy in Isaiah (ch. 28) is of judgment against Israel,
"Truly, with stammering lip
and with alien tongue
he will speak to this people,
to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose”;
yet they would not hear.
Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them,
“Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little;”
in order that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken."
A few lines down Isaiah writes,
"See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation:"
As a sign to the non-believing it is the reality that they have turned away from God, for God has sent Jesus, the Christ, our Lord and they have not received Him. Bring this also into the context elsewhere in Paul's letters that there is always a remnant of faithful, now go back to earlier in Isaiah,
"In that day the Lord of hosts will be a garland of glory,
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people;
and a spirit of justice to the one who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate."
And yet Isaiah specifically states of these stammering lips and foreign tongues,
"yet they would not hear.
Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them,
“Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little;”
in order that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken."
Though through the outpouring of the Spirit a sign has been manifest, the speaking in languages, even still people refuse to listen. As such it is a sign of judgment.
That was the sign that the Gospel was for the Gentiles and that Gentiles were to be received into the Church. But it is not a/the sign that a Christian has received the Holy Spirit--that is something Scripture never says.
There is no evidence in Scripture that the baptism with the Holy Spirit which St. John the Baptist spoke of was anything which happens to individual Christians, there are precisely only two events in the entirety of the Bible which are described as being this: What happened at Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out on all who were gathered in the upper room, and then at Cornelius' house. These are the only occasions we see "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" being applied, these are both incredibly unique events; the first was fulfillment of Christ's promise that He would send the Holy Spirit, the second was a sign of the Gentile's inclusion into the Church's ministry, since what happened to a group of Gentiles was what happened to the apostles and those gathered in the upper room it was a clear indication to Peter and the rest of the leaders of the Church that the uncircumcised were to be included, this coincides with St. Paul's conversion and calling to be apostle to the the uncircumcised.
To state that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something that an individual Christian can or will experience has precisely no basis in Scripture. What happened in Acts 19 was not a baptism with the Holy Spirit, but the Apostle laying on hands--which is never called or even suggested to be a "baptism" of any kind.
The Church has simply never known of this phenomenon taught in Charismatic and Pentecostal circles of a subsequent, secondary "baptism" "of the Spirit"--it is foreign to ancient, historic, and apostolic Christian faith as confessed down through two millennia. It is a modern doctrine borne not out of the Church's faithfulness to Scripture or received Christian experience, but borne out of innovation and theological confusion.
-CryptoLutheran
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Most scholars, even Pentecostal ones, reject the idea of Baptism in the Spirit being an empowering event subsequent to salvation, but rather affirm it to be the act of uniting the believer to the body of Christ at their conversion (1 Cor 12:13). For example, Pentecostalism's foremost theologian Gordon Fee writes:
The First Epistle to the Corinthians - By Gordon D. Fee
Some have argued for "Spirit baptism," by which they mean a separate and distinguishable experience from conversion. But this has against it both Pauline usage (he does not elsewhere use this term, nor clearly point to such a second experience) and the emphasis in this context, which is not on a special experience in the Spirit beyond conversion, but on their common reception of the Spirit.
Most likely, therefore, Paul is referring to their common experience of conversion, and he does so in terms of its most crucial ingredient, the receiving of the Spirit. Such expressive metaphors (immersion in the Spirit and drinking to the fill of the Spirit), it needs to be added, do imply a much greater experiential and visibly manifest reception of the Spirit than many have tended to experience in subsequent church history (see on 2:4-5).
If this is the correct understanding of these two clauses, and the full context seems to demand such, then the prepositional phrase "in the Spirit" is most likely locative, expressing the "element" in which they have all been immersed, just as the Spirit is that which they have all been given to drink. Such usage is also in keeping with the rest of the NT. Nowhere else does this dative with "baptize' imply agency (i.e., that the Spirit does the baptizing), but it always refers to the element "in which" one is baptized.
In this sentence the goal of their common "immersion" in the one Spirit is "into/unto one body." The precise nuance of this preposition is not certain. It is often given a local sense, suggesting that all are baptized "into" the same reality, namely the body of Christ, the implication being that there is a prior entity called the body of Christ, of which one becomes part by being immersed in the Spirit. But with verbs of motion like "baptize' this preposition most often has the sense of "movement toward so as to be in. In the present case the idea of "goal" seems more prominent. That is, the purpose of our common experience of the Spirit is that we be formed into one body. Hence, "we all were immersed in the one Spirit, so as to become one body." This phrase, of course, expresses the reason for this sentence in the first place. How did the many of them all become one body? By their common, lavish experience of the Spirit.
To emphasize that the many ("we all") have become one through the Spirit, Paul adds parenthetically, "whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free." As in 7:17-24, these terms express the two basic distinctions that separated people in that culture-race/religion and social status. In Christ these old distinctions have been obliterated, not in the sense that one is no longer Jew or Greek, etc., but in the sense of their having significance. And, of course, having significance is what gives them value as distinctives. So in effect their common life in the Spirit had eliminated the significance of the old distinctions, hence they had become one body.
Some have argued for "Spirit baptism," by which they mean a separate and distinguishable experience from conversion. But this has against it both Pauline usage (he does not elsewhere use this term, nor clearly point to such a second experience) and the emphasis in this context, which is not on a special experience in the Spirit beyond conversion, but on their common reception of the Spirit.
Most likely, therefore, Paul is referring to their common experience of conversion, and he does so in terms of its most crucial ingredient, the receiving of the Spirit. Such expressive metaphors (immersion in the Spirit and drinking to the fill of the Spirit), it needs to be added, do imply a much greater experiential and visibly manifest reception of the Spirit than many have tended to experience in subsequent church history (see on 2:4-5).
If this is the correct understanding of these two clauses, and the full context seems to demand such, then the prepositional phrase "in the Spirit" is most likely locative, expressing the "element" in which they have all been immersed, just as the Spirit is that which they have all been given to drink. Such usage is also in keeping with the rest of the NT. Nowhere else does this dative with "baptize' imply agency (i.e., that the Spirit does the baptizing), but it always refers to the element "in which" one is baptized.
In this sentence the goal of their common "immersion" in the one Spirit is "into/unto one body." The precise nuance of this preposition is not certain. It is often given a local sense, suggesting that all are baptized "into" the same reality, namely the body of Christ, the implication being that there is a prior entity called the body of Christ, of which one becomes part by being immersed in the Spirit. But with verbs of motion like "baptize' this preposition most often has the sense of "movement toward so as to be in. In the present case the idea of "goal" seems more prominent. That is, the purpose of our common experience of the Spirit is that we be formed into one body. Hence, "we all were immersed in the one Spirit, so as to become one body." This phrase, of course, expresses the reason for this sentence in the first place. How did the many of them all become one body? By their common, lavish experience of the Spirit.
To emphasize that the many ("we all") have become one through the Spirit, Paul adds parenthetically, "whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free." As in 7:17-24, these terms express the two basic distinctions that separated people in that culture-race/religion and social status. In Christ these old distinctions have been obliterated, not in the sense that one is no longer Jew or Greek, etc., but in the sense of their having significance. And, of course, having significance is what gives them value as distinctives. So in effect their common life in the Spirit had eliminated the significance of the old distinctions, hence they had become one body.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
This presents the problem you have. You are making a claim here and nothing more, no proof to back the claim. Awhile back on another forum, someone made the claim about a doctor who raised someone from the dead. I asked for proof. That person then posted a link to a Youtube video. The video did not show anyone that was certified dead who was then raised from the dead, but all it showed was people being interviewed who were making claims about the doctor raising a dead person.....a "big foot sighting' claim.
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TheSeabass
Well-Known Member
---I am not cherry picking cases for each and every case I have had personal dealings with, never a single one had possession of miraculous powers.
---I do not need to go to their services. If they cannot perform miracles where they are at then why should I believe they can perform miracles at their services.
---No verse says miracles are performed to day by anyone or that miracles are even needed today. Miracles had a specific purpose for a specific time and they have fulfilled their purpose back in the first century and are no longer needed, therefore miracles no longer exist. The purpose of miracles was to bring about the word of God (1 Cor 13; Eph 4) and to confirm that word, (Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:3-4).......
(Note this closely)
.....those miracles, as the Hebrew writer stated, did confirm the word back in the first century. Therefore the recording of these miracles that occurred in the first century would only continue to confirm the word. And this is exactly what John did when he said "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:30-31. Central to John's thought in this passage is about him writing down various miracles that were performed by Christ. The verb phrase "are written" is perfect tense which denotes an action that took place in the past but still has an ongoing, continual effect. Back when Jesus performed those miracles, people personally eye witnessed those miracles thereby inducing a belief in those eye witnesses. John wrote those miracles down so they would continue, and ongoingly induce a belief in people today who read them. Therefore by writing them down, John saw to it that a repetitious performance of miracles are not needed or necessary today......by writing those miracles down they still continue to perpetually to confirm the word and induce a belief in people today so no miracles are needed today.
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I suppose my work supervisor who was diagnosed by her doctor with arthritis in her knee, and after prayer went back to the doctor who was puzzled because it was no longer there. I guess she, the doctors and the xrays were mistaken as well.
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Actually I don't have a problem about it. Even if the proof was put right in front of you, you wouldn't believe it anyway. As I mentioned in my other post, her hearing involved her doctor and xrays before and after. A nurse with a painful back was prayed for, and she says the pain disappeared and she was jumping around and rejoicing about it. Another lady had a chronic back problem and was prayed for. She reported back to her pastor that there was no further pain and that she had the best night's sleep in years. Your prejudice against modern divine healing would assert that all these people, including the doctor, xrays, and a church pastor were all mistaken. I guess you are saying that because it has never happened to you or to anyone you know, it doesn't exist. So never pray for any sick person, because that would be hypocritical of you seeing that you don't believe that God heals today.
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Well, I have always said that I don't heal people. Jesus does. Ministering healing to a person is out of obedience to the instruction Jesus gave to His disciples (and that includes every believer). He is sovereign and He goes about the actual healing in his own way and time. The healing of my work supervisor was a wonderful testimony to God's grace and power. She is not a Christian. She announced her healing in a staff meeting, and another staff member announced loudly to the others that this was after she was prayed for. The whole point of the healing was to act as a testimony of Christ to a group of unsaved people. It causes the gospel to be more than just religious words, but makes Christ very real.
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Note that Holy Spirit baptism is an empowering event subsequent to salvation. For:
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
A parallel passage refers to this enduing with power as Holy Spirit baptism:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
This was first fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2, just as the empowering of other Christians through Holy Spirit baptism occurred at subsequent times (Acts 19:6, Acts 10:44-46) down until this day.
1 Corinthians 12:13 shows that there is only one body of Jesus Christ, which consists of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.
It doesn't refer to Holy Spirit baptism, which occurs sometime subsequent to salvation, and involves the Holy Spirit coming upon a Christian in an empowering way (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 19:6, Acts 10:44-46), but rather refers figuratively to how the Holy Spirit has "immersed" (the meaning of "baptized") every Christian into the one body of Jesus Christ via every Christian having the one faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Ephesians 4:4-5).
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Eh?
1 Cor 12:13 "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."
Every bible translation renders 1 Cor 12:13 as baptism in/with/by the Spirit. The Greek words in 1 Cor 12:13 (pneuma and baptizō) are exactly the same as those spoken by Jesus and John the Baptist in their references to Spirit baptism.
Three of the 4 verses you quote make no mention of Spirit baptism. There are only 3 references to Spirit baptism in scripture - John the Baptist saying "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit" (Mat 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33), Jesus saying "in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5, 11:16), and Paul saying "in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor 12:13). On the day of Pentecost the disciples were baptized in the Spirit for the first time forming the body of Christ (the church did not exist before then). Of course it was subsequent for them because the Spirit was not poured out until that day. It was a unique event in redemptive history that marked the transition between old and new covenant whereby the Holy Spirit now indwells believers. Because it was subsequent on the day of Pentecost doesn't mean it is the pattern for us today. Today, as Paul makes clear, all believers are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ at their conversion.
The old school Pentecostal doctrine which you hold to has now been debunked by the most respected Pentecostal/charismatic/continuist theologians. I have already quoted Pentecostalism's leading theologian Gordon Fee. Here is another by the respected continuist Wayne Grudem:
Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology
But this has a significant implication for us: it means that, as far as the apostle Paul was concerned, baptism in the Holy Spirit occurred at conversion. He says that all the Corinthians were baptized in the Holy Spirit and the result was that they became members of the body of Christ: “For we were all baptized in one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13 NIV mg). “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” therefore, must refer to the activity of the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the Christian life when he gives us new spiritual life (in regeneration) and cleanses us and gives a clear break with the power and love of sin (the initial stage of sanctification). In this way “baptism in the Holy Spirit” refers to all that the Holy Spirit does at the beginning of our Christian lives. But this means that it cannot refer to an experience after conversion, as the Pentecostal interpretation would have it.
But how, then, do we understand the references to baptism in the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:5 and 11:6, both of which refer to the day of Pentecost? Were these not instances where the disciples, having previously been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, now experienced a new empowering from the Holy Spirit that enabled them to minister effectively?
It is true that the disciples were “born again” long before Pentecost, and in fact probably long before Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. Jesus had said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), but the disciples certainly had come to Jesus and had followed him (even though their understanding of who he was increased gradually over time). Certainly when Peter said to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16), it was evidence of some kind of regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in his heart. Jesus told him, “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17). And Jesus had said to the Father regarding his disciples, “I have given them the words which you gave me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me … I have guarded them and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:8, 12). The disciples had “little faith” (Matt. 8:26) at times, but they did have faith! Certainly they were regenerated long before the day of Pentecost.
But we must realize that the day of Pentecost is much more than an individual event in the lives of Jesus’ disciples and those with them. The day of Pentecost was the point of transition between the old covenant work and ministry of the Holy Spirit and the new covenant work and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Of course the Holy Spirit was at work throughout the Old Testament, hovering over the waters of the first day of creation (Gen. 1:2), empowering people for service to God and leadership and prophecy (Ex. 31:3; 35:31; Deut. 34:9; Judg. 14:6; 1 Sam. 16:13; Ps. 51:11, et al.). But during that time the work of the Holy Spirit in individual lives was, in general, a work of lesser power.
...
The disciples, however, do not receive this full new covenant empowering for ministry until the Day of Pentecost, for Jesus tells them to wait in Jerusalem, and promises, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8). This was a transition in the lives of the disciples as well (see John 7:39; 14:17; 16:7; Acts 2:16). The promise of Joel that the Holy Spirit would come in new covenant fullness was fulfilled (Acts 2:16) as Jesus returned to heaven and then was given authority to pour out the Holy Spirit in new fullness and power (Acts 2:33).
What was the result in the lives of the disciples? These believers, who had had an old-covenant less powerful experience of the Holy Spirit in their lives, received on the Day of Pentecost a more-powerful new-covenant experience of the Holy Spirit working in their lives. They received much greater “power” (Acts 1:8), power for living the Christian life and for carrying out Christian ministry.
This new covenant power gave the disciples more effectiveness in their witness and their ministry (Acts 1:8; Eph. 4:8, 11–13), much greater power for victory over the influence of sin in the lives of all believers (note the emphasis on the power of Christ’s resurrection at work within us in Rom. 6:11–14; 8:13–14; Gal. 2:20; Phil. 3:10), and power for victory over Satan and demonic forces that would attack believers (2 Cor. 10:3–4; Eph. 1:19–21; 6:10–18; 1 John 4:4). This new covenant power of the Holy Spirit also resulted in a wide and hitherto unknown distribution of gifts for ministry to all believers (Acts 2:16–18; 1 Cor. 12:7, 11; 1 Peter 4:10; cf. Num. 11:17, 24–29). These gifts also had corporate implications because they were intended not to be used individualistically but for the corporate building up of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:7; 14:12). It also meant that the gospel was no longer effectively limited to the Jews only, but that all races and all nations would hear the gospel in power and would be united into the church, to the glory of God (Eph. 2:11–3:10).20 The Day of Pentecost was certainly a remarkable time of transition in the whole history of redemption as recorded in Scripture. It was a remarkable day in the history of the world, because on that day the Holy Spirit began to function among God’s people with new covenant power.
But this fact helps us understand what happened to the disciples at Pentecost. They received this remarkable new empowering from the Holy Spirit because they were living at the time of the transition between the old covenant work of the Holy Spirit and the new covenant work of the Holy Spirit. Though it was a “second experience” of the Holy Spirit, coming as it did long after their conversion, it is not to be taken as a pattern for us, for we are not living at a time of transition in the work of the Holy Spirit. In their case, believers with an old covenant empowering from the Holy Spirit became believers with a new covenant empowering from the Holy Spirit. But we today do not first become believers with a weaker, old covenant work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and wait until some later time to receive a new covenant work of the Holy Spirit. Rather, we are in the same position as those who became Christians in the church at Corinth: when we become Christians we are all “baptized in one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13)—just as the Corinthians were, and just as were the new believers in many churches who were converted when Paul traveled on his missionary journeys.
In conclusion, the disciples certainly did experience “a baptism in the Holy Spirit” after conversion on the Day of Pentecost, but this happened because they were living at a unique point in history, and this event in their lives is therefore not a pattern that we are to seek to imitate. What shall we say about the phrase “baptism in the Holy Spirit”? It is a phrase that the New Testament authors use to speak of coming into the new covenant power of the Holy Spirit. It happened at Pentecost for the disciples, but it happened at conversion for the Corinthians and for us. It is not a phrase the New Testament authors would use to speak of any post-conversion experience of empowering by the Holy Spirit.
But this has a significant implication for us: it means that, as far as the apostle Paul was concerned, baptism in the Holy Spirit occurred at conversion. He says that all the Corinthians were baptized in the Holy Spirit and the result was that they became members of the body of Christ: “For we were all baptized in one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13 NIV mg). “Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” therefore, must refer to the activity of the Holy Spirit at the beginning of the Christian life when he gives us new spiritual life (in regeneration) and cleanses us and gives a clear break with the power and love of sin (the initial stage of sanctification). In this way “baptism in the Holy Spirit” refers to all that the Holy Spirit does at the beginning of our Christian lives. But this means that it cannot refer to an experience after conversion, as the Pentecostal interpretation would have it.
But how, then, do we understand the references to baptism in the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:5 and 11:6, both of which refer to the day of Pentecost? Were these not instances where the disciples, having previously been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, now experienced a new empowering from the Holy Spirit that enabled them to minister effectively?
It is true that the disciples were “born again” long before Pentecost, and in fact probably long before Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. Jesus had said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), but the disciples certainly had come to Jesus and had followed him (even though their understanding of who he was increased gradually over time). Certainly when Peter said to Jesus, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16), it was evidence of some kind of regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in his heart. Jesus told him, “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17). And Jesus had said to the Father regarding his disciples, “I have given them the words which you gave me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me … I have guarded them and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:8, 12). The disciples had “little faith” (Matt. 8:26) at times, but they did have faith! Certainly they were regenerated long before the day of Pentecost.
But we must realize that the day of Pentecost is much more than an individual event in the lives of Jesus’ disciples and those with them. The day of Pentecost was the point of transition between the old covenant work and ministry of the Holy Spirit and the new covenant work and ministry of the Holy Spirit. Of course the Holy Spirit was at work throughout the Old Testament, hovering over the waters of the first day of creation (Gen. 1:2), empowering people for service to God and leadership and prophecy (Ex. 31:3; 35:31; Deut. 34:9; Judg. 14:6; 1 Sam. 16:13; Ps. 51:11, et al.). But during that time the work of the Holy Spirit in individual lives was, in general, a work of lesser power.
...
The disciples, however, do not receive this full new covenant empowering for ministry until the Day of Pentecost, for Jesus tells them to wait in Jerusalem, and promises, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8). This was a transition in the lives of the disciples as well (see John 7:39; 14:17; 16:7; Acts 2:16). The promise of Joel that the Holy Spirit would come in new covenant fullness was fulfilled (Acts 2:16) as Jesus returned to heaven and then was given authority to pour out the Holy Spirit in new fullness and power (Acts 2:33).
What was the result in the lives of the disciples? These believers, who had had an old-covenant less powerful experience of the Holy Spirit in their lives, received on the Day of Pentecost a more-powerful new-covenant experience of the Holy Spirit working in their lives. They received much greater “power” (Acts 1:8), power for living the Christian life and for carrying out Christian ministry.
This new covenant power gave the disciples more effectiveness in their witness and their ministry (Acts 1:8; Eph. 4:8, 11–13), much greater power for victory over the influence of sin in the lives of all believers (note the emphasis on the power of Christ’s resurrection at work within us in Rom. 6:11–14; 8:13–14; Gal. 2:20; Phil. 3:10), and power for victory over Satan and demonic forces that would attack believers (2 Cor. 10:3–4; Eph. 1:19–21; 6:10–18; 1 John 4:4). This new covenant power of the Holy Spirit also resulted in a wide and hitherto unknown distribution of gifts for ministry to all believers (Acts 2:16–18; 1 Cor. 12:7, 11; 1 Peter 4:10; cf. Num. 11:17, 24–29). These gifts also had corporate implications because they were intended not to be used individualistically but for the corporate building up of the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:7; 14:12). It also meant that the gospel was no longer effectively limited to the Jews only, but that all races and all nations would hear the gospel in power and would be united into the church, to the glory of God (Eph. 2:11–3:10).20 The Day of Pentecost was certainly a remarkable time of transition in the whole history of redemption as recorded in Scripture. It was a remarkable day in the history of the world, because on that day the Holy Spirit began to function among God’s people with new covenant power.
But this fact helps us understand what happened to the disciples at Pentecost. They received this remarkable new empowering from the Holy Spirit because they were living at the time of the transition between the old covenant work of the Holy Spirit and the new covenant work of the Holy Spirit. Though it was a “second experience” of the Holy Spirit, coming as it did long after their conversion, it is not to be taken as a pattern for us, for we are not living at a time of transition in the work of the Holy Spirit. In their case, believers with an old covenant empowering from the Holy Spirit became believers with a new covenant empowering from the Holy Spirit. But we today do not first become believers with a weaker, old covenant work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and wait until some later time to receive a new covenant work of the Holy Spirit. Rather, we are in the same position as those who became Christians in the church at Corinth: when we become Christians we are all “baptized in one Spirit into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13)—just as the Corinthians were, and just as were the new believers in many churches who were converted when Paul traveled on his missionary journeys.
In conclusion, the disciples certainly did experience “a baptism in the Holy Spirit” after conversion on the Day of Pentecost, but this happened because they were living at a unique point in history, and this event in their lives is therefore not a pattern that we are to seek to imitate. What shall we say about the phrase “baptism in the Holy Spirit”? It is a phrase that the New Testament authors use to speak of coming into the new covenant power of the Holy Spirit. It happened at Pentecost for the disciples, but it happened at conversion for the Corinthians and for us. It is not a phrase the New Testament authors would use to speak of any post-conversion experience of empowering by the Holy Spirit.
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TheSeabass
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1) the bible tells me miracles have ceased.
2) no proof has ever been put in front of me......for none exists.
3) what you give above are the "Big Foot sightings" as explained in the link I gave in an earlier post.
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Rubbish. The Bible has never said that miracles have ceased. Show me where the Bible directly makes the statement, "Miracles have ceased", or that they were meant to cease after the Apostolic era. You won't find one because there are none. You are basing your belief on a idiot who misquoted half a verse in 1 Corinthians 13 to try and justify the deadness of his own religious beliefs. Only a stupid hockey puck who knows nothing about heumeneutics would take half a verse a build a doctrine on it.
Just because it is not part of your knowledge and experience which is an extremely small slice of what can be known, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because everyone around you is religiously dead, doesn't mean that there are people who are alive somewhere outside of your knowledge. Only an arrogant person who thinks he has all knowledge would make a direct statement about things like that.
Nonsense. There are thousands of people around the world who have medical proof that they were miraculously healed of a terminal disease when the doctors had given up on them. It is just that you choose to ignore these reliable testimonies that can be tested under close scrutiny and not like "Big Foot sightings". I think using that allusion is a pretty weak and useless argument to offer in opposition to modern miracles.
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W2L
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I love 1 Co 13. I may not have faith that moves mountains, but i can hope in the Lord still, because the scriptures say Heaven awaits us. Also, I can follow love, which is the greatest miracle in my opinion. Love is always ready to be a blessing, in the vessel which holds it. So i'm not a miracle worker? I have the knowledge of love! Amen, amen. Such a blessed thing love is.
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"
Hockey puck? ROFL
I know who you are talking about and you are right!
Nonsense. There are thousands of people around the world who have medical proof that they were miraculously healed of a terminal disease when the doctors had given up on them. It is just that you choose to ignore these reliable testimonies that can be tested under close scrutiny and not like "Big Foot sightings". I think using that allusion is a pretty weak and useless argument to offer in opposition to modern miracles.[/QUOTE]
Hockey puck? ROFL
I know who you are talking about and you are right!
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