Non-Violence as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

Hank77

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As Christians the Old Testament is not our guide as to how to live; if it were then we must follow all the teachings and rites which can be found in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. Our guide on how to live is found in the New Testament through Jesus, and He clearly taught no justification for killing.
It is always advisable to read the post a response is to.
 
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In this world a certain number of people will admire your pacifism. Others will see it as a weakness and an excellent opportunity to attack without risking injury. Many years ago I stupidly and unnecessarily revealed my pacifist view to a fellow worker and a few hours later he was brazenly insulting me for absolutely no reason whatsoever. After all-what did he have to lose?

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12).


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real tree

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But this was the Old Testament. We are saints who are a part of the New Testament. We no longer have to offer animal sacrifices to a priest anymore according to the Old Law. We no longer prevented in eating unclean animals, etc. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
 
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real tree

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Jesus replaced that sacrifice.
Has violence taken against people been replaced, has it been stopped yet? Have blood thirsty killers been replaced? They are the ones who do live by the sword and may very well die by the sword.

The OT has much that is still relevant today.
Matthew 5:17-20
 
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real tree

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Romans 13 talks about how the government are God's ministers of justice. While God can use ungodly nations or governments to execute his judgment, that does not mean God wants His people to do the same under the New Covenant. So yes. I am justified by calling the cops to protect my family. Because the cops are not like a hit squad. They do not shoot first and ask questions later. They are God's unbelieving ministers of justice. In other words, it would sort of be like praying to God so as to send an angel to protect you without you having to act violently yourself.

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All cops are unbelievers, I dont think so.
 
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FireDragon76

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David addressed this. Sometimes God uses people to protect people, just as He uses people to speak the Gospel, care for the poor, etc.

Yeah. Nobody has the right to demand you be a martyr. The use of force can be a legitimate vocation, and to say pacifism is the only choice is confusing Law and Gospel.
 
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All cops are unbelievers, I dont think so.

When I say unbelieving ministers I am saying that the majority of the police and military are not believing and following Jesus exactly like the disciples did. I am saying these organizations are not ultimately Christian in nature and making a pledge to follow Jesus. While there are people who accepted Christ as a policeman or as a soldier, I believe God will try to lead them out of these kinds of professions because these organizations will make them do things that are contrary to Christ's teachings. For when somebody is going against Christ's teachings, they are not believing entirely what Jesus is trying to say to them. While they may not be an unbeliever per say, they are also not totally believing in all the words of Jesus, though.


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Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So you offer animal sacrifices still and eat only clean animals?

Also, the Law and the Prophets would also include the books on prophecy or the prophetic books from the OT. Many of these prophecies have yet to be fulfilled. But Jesus had fulfilled the OT law upon the cross. This is why the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom. The animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable. Jesus is our perfect sacrifice. As for the Commandments Jesus is talking about: He is referring to the New Testament Commands He just gave on the sermon on the Mount. For if the Old Law was still binding then Paul would not say, "if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2). This would not make any sense for Paul to say this if the Old Law was still binding (whereby circumcision was a requirement - See Genesis 17:14).


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FireDragon76

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The Sermon on the Mount, when applied to a believer, is more of an invitation, not a commandment. There is a subtle difference. This is the stuff in the middle ages, or in the Catholic Church, that was and is called "The Evangelical Counsels". Good ideals to practice but not something necessarily that is forced on people.
 
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real tree

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When I say unbelieving ministers I am saying that the majority of the police and military are not believing and following Jesus exactly like the disciples did. I am saying these organizations are not ultimately Christian in nature and making a pledge to follow Jesus. While there are people who accepted Christ as a policeman or as a soldier, I believe God will try to lead them out of these kinds of professions because these organizations will make them do things that are contrary to Christ's teachings. For when somebody is going against Christ's teachings, they are not believing entirely what Jesus is trying to say to them. While they may not be an unbeliever per say, they are also not totally believing in all the words of Jesus, though.


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Not trying to get of topic here, but do you feel that Christians should vote for those in charge of those organisations.
 
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Not trying to get of topic here, but do you feel that Christians should vote for those in charge of those organisations.

No. Voluntary Voting is a part of the world system and it is not a part of the Kingdom of God. Granted, if a law does not conflict with God's laws then we are to obey because it is required of us. But to voluntarily actively seek out to take part in a nation's ways (When God does not call us to do so) is nowhere taught in Scripture.


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dqhall

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Matthew 5:17-20

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus was critical of those who taught an unjust law,

Luke 11 (World English Bible):
Woes to Pharisees and Experts in Law

37Now as he spoke, a certain Pharisee asked him to dine with him. He went in, and sat at the table. 38When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that he had not first washed himself before dinner. 39The Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but your inward part is full of extortion and wickedness. 40You foolish ones, didn't he who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give for gifts to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.

42But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone. 43Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces. 44Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like hidden graves, and the men who walk over them don't know it."

45One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, in saying this you insult us also." 46He said, "Woe to you lawyers also! For you load men with burdens that are difficult to carry, and you yourselves won't even lift one finger to help carry those burdens. 47Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48So you testify and consent to the works of your fathers. For they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49Therefore also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles; and some of them they will kill and persecute, 50that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.' Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. 52Woe to you lawyers! For you took away the key of knowledge. You didn't enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in, you hindered."
 
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FireDragon76

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But to voluntarily actively seek out to take part in a nation's ways (When God does not call us to do so) is nowhere taught in Scripture.
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What about our duty to love our neighbor? Are our fellow citizens not our neighbors?
 
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What about our duty to love our neighbor? Are our fellow citizens not our neighbors?

Love can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Some people immediately hear the word "love" and they think that it is talking about to love people romantically. However, God's Word tells us how we are to love our neighbor. To go outside of God's Word in how we define love is dangerous. For you can think that love for your leaders of this nation is to vote for them. But that is not loving them. That would be supporting them regardless of the evil that you know they may do. For no politician is going to support everything that is supported by the Bible. In fact, there are many things that politicians do that go against the Bible. To support them is to be in league with even their evil deeds. We cannot pick and choose what we like about a person. Do we support the devil just because he may appear to do something loving (as a part of his deceptive tactics)? Surely not. In other words, by their fruits you will know them.


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FireDragon76

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Love can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Some people immediately hear the word "love" and they think that it is talking about to love people romantically.

It's obvious reading the Bible that love has to do with caring about the material and physical welfare of men and women created in the image of God, ensuring they are treated justly. You can't do this without government of some kind, and the necessary rule of law. Therefore, participating in government can be a godly vocation.

For you can think that love for your leaders of this nation is to vote for them.

We should love our neighbor and vote for politicians who will represent their interests and look out for their welfare. It the context of my church, the role of government is seen as promoting justice, good order, and human flourishing. In a democracy, we are to work for politicians who will create and uphold just laws.

I find it curious you have criticized me in the past, frankly, for being antinomian and not believing in good works. But here you are using your religion to reject many good works that are needful. Jesus had harsh words to say about this kind of use of God's Word (Matthew 15:1-20)
 
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It's obvious reading the Bible that love has to do with caring about the material and physical welfare of men and women created in the image of God, ensuring they are treated justly. You can't do this without government of some kind, and the necessary rule of law. Therefore, participating in government can be a godly vocation.

We should love our neighbor and vote for politicians who will represent their interests and look out for their welfare. It the context of my church, the role of government is seen as promoting justice, good order, and human flourishing. In a democracy, we are to work for politicians who will create and uphold just laws.

I find it curious you have criticized me in the past, frankly, for being antinomian and not believing in good works. But here you are using your religion to reject many good works that are needful. Jesus had harsh words to say about this kind of use of God's Word (Matthew 15:1-20)

People who are clearly not Antinomian would never give anyone a reason to think that they are Antinomian. By what you said you led me to believe you are Antinomian.
Are you not Antinomian?
If not, then please explain.

Anyways, there is a Godly way of loving and there is a worldly way of loving. For Jesus said, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children," (Matthew 7:11). Meaning, the wicked can do loving things. Jesus also said let the dead bury their own dead. If one is loving according to God's ways instead of by the world's ways, they are fulfilling a greater purpose and plan according to God's Kingdom by faith instead of doing what we feel is good and right in our eyes.

For example:

Should I build an Iron Man suit and convince the government that I should fight crime, and help to save innocent lives? Would God want me to do that? Surely not. For we walk by faith and not by sight. We fight an unseen battle or war and not a physical one with armored suits and or magical hammers.



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What about our duty to love our neighbor? Are our fellow citizens not our neighbors?

What does God's Word say to do? Should we not follow God's way instead of our own way?


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FireDragon76

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By what you said you led me to believe you are Antinomian.
Are you not Antinomian?
If not, then please explain.

I'm Lutheran. Which means in this context there are things we should do, but we don't, because we are sinners. Still, we can, with God's help, do some of them for the good of our neighbor, as part of our calling or vocation. We believe in the "New Obedience", though we do not believe in sinlessness in this life, even for believers.

I think the sticking point is that you seem to not have an augustinian anthropology or doctrine of sin.

Anyways, there is a Godly way of loving and there is a worldly way of loving.

I do not believe this as a Lutheran. It is a confusion of Law and Gospel and the left-hand and right-hand reign of God in the world. There is no special Christian way of being loving. The moral law of God is written on every human heart, and is available as ones conscience. The issue is not a lack of knowledge of God's law, but a lack of strength and will on our part.

We Lutherans tend to have a view of Christ and culture that doesn't view the world as completely evil. What Reinhold Niebuhr called "Christ and Culture". There is a civic form of righteousness that is good, without necessarily being Christian. It does not merit salvation but it is a temporal good and is part of God's providential care and love for the world. In a sinful world that has yet to see the fullness of redemption, human vocations, including ones that use force, are part of this.
 
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Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good:

Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Trusting in the verses or passages in the Bible on pacifism takes faith. You have to first believe these words in the Bible and you have to take it by faith that God has an ultimate good plan that we cannot always see (No matter what happens to us). The life story of Joseph is a good example of this. What Joseph's brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended to use their evil for the purpose of good. It is the same with Jesus. What appeared to be the death of the disciple's master (which really had upset Peter at first), was the ultimate plan of redemption for all mankind. Something that appeared to be horrible (The death of Jesus), was just the start of something amazing and good. So we cannot always see what God's plan is even when we are to walk in the valley of the shadow of death. For when Job had lost his sons, certain possessions, and his health, he could have denied God and turn away from Him. But Job did not do that. He still continued to believe in the Lord and worship Him (even if he did briefly get angry at God). The idea of pacifism is hard for many of us. Some of you may have been to war. Some of you may be a police officer and you rely on your gun. Some of you may have even saved lives countless times over with the use of violent force. But God's ways are higher than our ways. He calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us. For there are cases where Christians who follow the New Testament's teaching on pacifism who have prayed and or praised God in a potentially violent situation and they were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. Christians are also called to be persecuted or to suffer as Christ had suffered. How can one truly do this if they are on the offensive and or attacking others? We are told to follow the life of Jesus. Yet, nowhere do we see Jesus ever fighting back. Jesus says take up your cross and come follow me. Jesus died on the cross. What would have seemed like the end, was actually something far more. When believers die or suffer for the cause of Christ and it leads to just one soul to the LORD because they see the love, peace, and dedication they have for God (who lives in them), then it is all worth it according to God's ultimate plan for good (Which is to lead as many men as possible to Him). But what about justice in a given situation? Should we stand by as we watch our family or friends or others get hurt? No. We can trust in God and pray to Him and act in a non-violent way so as to protect them. But wouldn't it seem simpler to just end evil men by shooting them? Then how can you witness Christ or the gospel to them if they are dead? Also, is not God in control of all things? Can anything truly bad happen to you without God's say so? But again, you might ask: What about justice in a given situation? If God told you to trust in Him and His plan of not acting violent, and something bad happens, do you think that evil or evil men will not be judged in the end? Can you also see God's entire good plan working in your life in trusting Him like with the story of Joseph and his brothers? Are you God to be able to see His greater plan for good?

New Testament Scripture That Supports Pacifism:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?

Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 6:27-29
27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

Luke 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Romans 12:17-21
17 Never repay anyone evil for evil. Take thought for what is right and gracious and proper in the sight of everyone. - AMP
18 and do your best to live at peace with everyone. - CEV
19 Christian brothers, never pay back someone for the bad he has done to you. Let the anger of God take care of the other person. - NLV for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

1 Peter 2:21-23
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:4 We do not use those things to fight with that the world uses. We use the things God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil.

Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man,

John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 10:28-31
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

James 3:18 The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 16:20 The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren ... be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

Galatians 1:13 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

1 Peter 4:12-16
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind...

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:3 - and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

Philippians 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Popular Common Objections:

Luke 22:36 is a popular objection because Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword.

Here is a great article explaining this one in great detail.

http://clearbibleanswers.org/questi...m-sell-his-garment-and-buy-one-luke-2236.html

As for John the Baptist's silence on not telling the soldiers to quite the military in Luke 3:10-14 (Which is similar to Jesus's encounter with the Roman Centurion - Luke 7:1-10):

Check out this article here:

http://enemylove.com/did-john-the-baptist-tell-the-repentant-soldiers-to-leave-the-military/

As for Jesus not telling the Roman Centurion not to quite the military or to do no more violence in Luke 7:1-10:

Well, you have to realize that salvation did not go out unto the Gentiles yet. They first preached the gospel to Israel first.

As for Romans 13:4 that says,

...for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is talking about how unbelieving authorities or nations (like a government's leaders, armies, and police) who are God's ministers to execute wrath or judgment on those who do evil. This is not talking about believers because it is telling the reader to be subject unto this higher powers (Romans 13:1). It does not tell the reader that they are these higher powers. The reader that Paul is writing to are believers (not the higher powers who are in authority whereby we are to be subject unto). In fact, God used both Assyria and Babylon to punish His people. So we can see that these nations were God's ministers of justice (Which would be in line with what is said in Romans 13).

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Jason - Excellent explanation. The frustrating thing about discussing this with those that oppose it, they do not have scriptures to prove their points. They may use 2 or 3 and they are usually misunderstood. God is so clear on this matter with numerous verses. I'm encouraged by you, a fellow believer.
 
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Jason - Excellent explanation. The frustrating thing about discussing this with those that oppose it, they do not have scriptures to prove their points. They may use 2 or 3 and they are usually misunderstood. God is so clear on this matter with numerous verses. I'm encouraged by you, a fellow believer.

Thank you. I am glad to hear that.
But all the glory goes to GOD of course.
He was the One who showed me all of the verses.
Non-Violence taught by Jesus has it's roots in faith.
I am trusting God and that He is sovereign to protect me or not.
Whether, I live, die, or suffer, let it all be to the glory of Christ.
Sometimes it is not easy to turn the other cheek.
Many times we may want justice and we want to point out people's wrongs.
It is a daily struggle. But we must love, pray, and do good unto them (no matter what).


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