Loving the Unelect

[Strivax]

Being good or bad has nothing to do with salvation.

If that were true, then I would reject salvation. And encourage all moral people to do the same.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

the moral standard that God has instituted for man is moral perfection(matthew 5:48).

Uh huh. But the fact that we are not morally perfect does not mean we are are morally bad.

Consider the moral hierarchy:

worst, worse, bad, good, better, best.

If you are saying, as you seem to be, that everyone who is not best, as only God is, equates to worst, and deserves hell, then I have to disagree.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

you're making judgments on your own standard of morality, which is irrelevant. we don't get to choose the standard by which someone can receive something that isn't ours to give in the first place.

On the contrary, my moral standard guides my life. It is far from irrelevant, to me at least. And if God's moral standard is different: well, I am a reasonable person. I am prepared to be persuaded. But so far I have heard nothing on this thread that would persuade me different.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[owl-inc]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

Well, what makes a Christian believe they have been granted the "chosen" status of elect?
Just because YOU believe you are elect does NOT mean Christ has granted you that office or status.
Even in the 7 Churches of the saints in Revelation they were required to "OVERCOME".
But overcome what? It should be obvious. You need to overcome sin. But what is sin? Is the definition of sin your own opinion of right and wrong? Was not that Adam and Eve's big problem. Eating off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Hence their own OPINIONS of what is right and wrong (=knowledge of what's good and evil). Mankind has been doing so ever since. That's why so many churches and so many divisions. Each church lives by the "traditions and doctrines of men" thus tons of folly. Then what do you live by to overcome. Answer is simple: "by every word of God". This is the law of LOVE as defined by our Maker. His law of LOVE can be broken down into the 10 commandments and further broken down into every word of God as written in the pages of the bible. This overcoming is done by faith striving towards complete repentance and finally conversion via the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Only then can one start hoping for elect status. "Many are called few are chosen". Whoso exalt himself shall be abased.
How dare a commandment (LOVE) violating professing Christian call themselves "ELECT". Let alone think they have the right to not love their enemies. Go ahead lift yourself up in spiritual pride and see the reward God has waiting just for YOU!.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Uh huh. But the fact that we are not morally perfect does not mean we are are morally bad.

Consider the moral hierarchy:

worst, worse, bad, good, better, best.

If you are saying, as you seem to be, that everyone who is not best, as only God is, equates to worst, and deserves hell, then I have to disagree.

irrelevant,

the standard is perfection. no one meets that standard and outside of being in Christ no one can meet that standard.

if your disagreement with that standard leads you to rebel against the LORD, it is to your own peril.

On the contrary, my moral standard guides my life. It is far from irrelevant, to me at least. And if God's moral standard is different: well, I am a reasonable person. I am prepared to be persuaded. But so far I have heard nothing on this thread that would persuade me different.

the reason your standard is irrelevant is because heaven doesn't belong to you and you can't send anyone there just as you didn't create hell and can't send anyone there. no one is trying to achieve your heaven or avoid your hell.

both are under of the control of the LORD who is the creator of all things. therefore we must adhere to His standard or morality. if you choose to rebel against that standard, again, that's to your own peril.

 

[BukiRob]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

You must be forgetting the following verse

For G-d so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believes in him should not perish but inherit eternal life

 

[Jim Langston]

irrelevant,

the standard is perfection. no one meets that standard and outside of being in Christ no one can meet that standard.

if your disagreement with that standard leads you to rebel against the LORD, it is to your own peril.



the reason your standard is irrelevant is because heaven doesn't belong to you and you can't send anyone there just as you didn't create hell and can't send anyone there. no one is trying to achieve your heaven or avoid your hell.

both are under of the control of the LORD who is the creator of all things. therefore we must adhere to His standard or morality. if you choose to rebel against that standard, again, that's to your own peril.

The standard of God is Love God and love your neighbor as yourself according to Jesus and is extremely relevant. If one does not do this one is not saved. If one does this then Jesus will make us perfect as He cleanses us from our inperfections.

Love the Lord my God with all my heart, all my mind, all my heart and all my soul and love my neighbor as myself. "Do this and you shall live". Since God is also our neighbor later it is just said to love thy neighbor as thyself. That is the yardstick Christians are to live by.

 

[2404]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

I guess that mean that when someone has done you wrong you have never had a vendictive thought or wished anyone evil.
If they would try to nail you to a cross you would pray for their forgiveness.
Perhaps you are speaking from a fallen compassionate perspective
But of course you know God's love is not limited to human emotion
Now that you have heard me out what is your attitude toward me!!!

 

[Brad Tucker]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

You have no ability to know whether a person is elect or not. Not sure how you can hypothetically love somebody...

God's general grace extends to all men - he sends his rain on the just and the wicked. And it impossible to be better than God, since he alone is good.

 

[Thursday]

God's Word specifies clearly, if we would read it.

Not even Paul claimed to know his eternal destiny. Read. Phil 3.
We should have confidence, not presumption.

 

[BukiRob]

Not even Paul claimed to know his eternal destiny. Read. Phil 3.
We should have confidence, not presumption.

Cant say I agree with you at all...
2 Timothy 4:
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Id say he had a pretty clear idea where he stood with the Father.

 

[fhansen]

If God only loves those who are elected--but I love even the unelected--does that mean I am better than God?

We can't even know who the elect and "unelect" are with 100% certainty. So we're to love everyone-as God does. That's the most basic command, in fact, the fulfillment of which would save the whole world BTW.

 

[david.d]

So, just for the purposes of discussion, does a morally 'bad' Christian get saved, when a morally 'good' Jew or Moslem or Hindu or Buddhist gets condemned?

Best wishes, Strivax.

The Bible doesn't say that at all. Find one place in the Bible that says only Christians are not condemned. Jesus said all that God has given Him are His, those are the elect. I find nothing in the Bible that says all Gentiles that died before the Gospel are condemned.

There is however a distinction about being "saved". A morally bad Christian is a paradox, because to be a Christian is to follow Christ, which they are not. You reap what you sow. You reap it where you sow it, you can't sow something in one field and then real it in another. You are "saved" on earth by living Godly, you are saved eternally by the grace of God. There will be people from all time, places, colors (and therefore religions) in paradise, I think the Bible makes that clear.

 

[Thursday]

Cant say I agree with you at all...
2 Timothy 4:
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Id say he had a pretty clear idea where he stood with the Father.

That was at the end of his life.

Read here:

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Thursday]

irrelevant,

the standard is perfection. no one meets that standard and outside of being in Christ no one can meet that standard.

Wrong. We must strive for holiness and repent when we fail, which we will. God's grace enables us to live lives pleasing to him. If we choose disobedience that is not his fault, it is ours.

 

[BukiRob]

That was at the end of his life.

Read here:

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

You said that even Paul did not know where he was going... I merely pointed out your inaccuracy

 

[Strivax]

irrelevant,

the reason your standard is irrelevant is because heaven doesn't belong to you and you can't send anyone there just as you didn't create hell and can't send anyone there.

You may think I am being irrelevant. I am only trying to instill some reason to the conversation. If reason is irrelevant, then we have no common ground for debate, at all.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[BukiRob]

So, just for the purposes of discussion, does a morally 'bad' Christian get saved, when a morally 'good' Jew or Moslem or Hindu or Buddhist gets condemned?

Best wishes, Strivax.

It is NOT by "works" (being a man made definition of morally good or bad) that you are saved.

One is saved by FAITH.

Genesis 15:6 states Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Every man or woman has been saved from the beginning the same way.... By G-d's grace through FAITH.

Moral deeds are what bring about blessing and harmony in life.

So the Hindu, Muslim or even the atheist who rejects G-d's promised Messiah is DOOMED. Your words apart from Faith are an attempt to tell G-d that your own "righteousness" is enough to save you.... G-d rejects our righteousness as "filthy rags"

 

[BukiRob]

Uh huh. But the fact that we are not morally perfect does not mean we are are morally bad.

Consider the moral hierarchy:

worst, worse, bad, good, better, best.

If you are saying, as you seem to be, that everyone who is not best, as only God is, equates to worst, and deserves hell, then I have to disagree.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Morality has nothing to do with Salvation. It is as if you are trying to argue that being good should be a reward. That's like saying you should be rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do.

More importantly, whose standard of morality are we going to use?

G-d is perfect in him there is NO SIN. Sin is DEATH. G-d can not abide with sin, as such we need a mediator because we in this realm are incapable of perfection. G-d KNOWING this sent a mediator on our behalf to restore a way back to HIM. That mediator is Yeshua (Jesus)

We can not stand before G-d and present our works as justification.

Its like trying to argue that a little bit of death is not as bad as a lot of death. Or trying to argue that someone who has terminal brain cancer is worse off that someone who has terminal leukemia.... both people are dead.

 

[Florin Lăiu]

But hell can not possibly be "perfect love". Is torture is a definition of perfect love, then we should only say "I love you" to people who we care about until they don't believe in what we say and then waterboard them or toss them into a fire until they die, only he'll is worse because it's eternal. Come to think of it we'd have to redefine love in the dictionary if that is the case, as that definition of "love" seems more like the Ministry of Love in George Orwell's 1984....

But who said there is a hell, and it is eternal?