Why the Sabbath isn’t on Saturday or Sunday

[Guide To The Bible]

The pagan Roman Julian/Gregorian calendar that we now use was only created in 45 BC, before this time it did not exist. Therefore, the current 7 day rolling week we currently use only began at that time. Before this date the Romans (Just in the Provence of Rome) were using a calendar with an 8 day week and the Greek Mathematician Sosigenes who Julius Caesar employed to create the new calendar simply removed one of these days (Market day), so the chances of the current 7 day week matching the Jewish week was only a 1 in 7 chance.

The calendar Jesus and the Israelites had been using in Israel for over 1500 years prior to this time was completely different to our Julian calendar. Their months began with the sighting of the new crescent moon on which they rested and had a new moon feast, then there were 6 days of work followed by the first Sabbath. Lunar months are 29.53 days long and therefore Sabbaths fall on day’s 8, 15, 22 and 29 each lunar month. Then the process begins over again with the sighting of the next new moon.

The calendar the Jews used was written about by Moses in the Bible, it is God’s Calendar and you can read more about how it is explained in scripture here: Start Reading The Book

However, God’s Calendar is not the same calendar the Jews of today use. The Jews currently use a revised version of God’s Calendar which uses the Gregorian rolling week system instead of God’s lunar weeks, this was due partly to the Roman Emperor Hadrian after he had put down the Jewish Simon Bar-Kokhba revolt in 135 AD and made an anti-religious decree forbidding Sabbath new moon observances from Jerusalem and also the Roman Emperor Constantine who began to force the Jews in 325 AD to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

The Jewish calendar used today was created in 359 AD by Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II, this was in response to the Romans banishing the Jews from living in Jerusalem, as the Jews could no longer sight the new moon from there and so Hillel’s calendar uses a repeating 19 year lunar mathematical calculation that approximates the timing of each new moon sighting from Jerusalem. This allowed all the Jews to celebrate their feasts on the same day as they were now scattered all over the Earth

The fourth commandment; ‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy,’ has virtually been forgotten, a command more important than murder for example, which is the sixth commandment. Although we are saved by grace we should still use the ten commandments as our guide as to how to live. We are not dependant on the law but it will prosper us if we adhere to it, equally if we break these laws then we will face the consequences.

I hope this helps you to understand that the Sabbath is not on Saturdays or Sundays but instead can fall on any day of the pagan Julian/Gregorian week. You can view a comparison calendar on this site too, to know when the next Sabbaths will be: Sabbaths From Now Till 2029

Further studies on God’s Lunar Solar Calendar by other Bible scholars:

John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries: From Sabbath to Saturday: The Story of the Jewish Rest Day

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:

 

[Ken Behrens]

And the Chinese tell us the world was in darkness for 10 days during the flood. And the 20 hour slowdown of the sun for Joshua probably messed up someone's count somewhere. I think there's a good reason God tells us never to stop praying.

I'm saying this is not a matter worth arguing about. It's all our time, and we are all His. We can make it all His time, and then the question of when the sabbath is becomes irrelevant.

 

[sparow]

The pagan Roman Julian/Gregorian calendar that we now use was only created in 45 BC, before this time it did not exist. Therefore, the current 7 day rolling week we currently use only began at that time. Before this date the Romans (Just in the Provence of Rome) were using a calendar with an 8 day week and the Greek Mathematician Sosigenes who Julius Caesar employed to create the new calendar simply removed one of these days (Market day), so the chances of the current 7 day week matching the Jewish week was only a 1 in 7 chance.

The calendar Jesus and the Israelites had been using in Israel for over 1500 years prior to this time was completely different to our Julian calendar. Their months began with the sighting of the new crescent moon on which they rested and had a new moon feast, then there were 6 days of work followed by the first Sabbath. Lunar months are 29.53 days long and therefore Sabbaths fall on day’s 8, 15, 22 and 29 each lunar month. Then the process begins over again with the sighting of the next new moon.

The calendar the Jews used was written about by Moses in the Bible, it is God’s Calendar and you can read more about how it is explained in scripture in Chapter 1 of my book; ‘The Christian’s Guide to the Bible’: Start Reading The Book

However, God’s Calendar is not the same calendar the Jews of today use. The Jews currently use a revised version of God’s Calendar which uses the Gregorian rolling week system instead of God’s lunar weeks, this was due partly to the Roman Emperor Hadrian after he had put down the Jewish Simon Bar-Kokhba revolt in 135 AD and made an anti-religious decree forbidding Sabbath new moon observances from Jerusalem and also the Roman Emperor Constantine who began to force the Jews in 325 AD to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

The Jewish calendar used today was created in 359 AD by Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II, this was in response to the Romans banishing the Jews from living in Jerusalem, as the Jews could no longer sight the new moon from there and so Hillel’s calendar uses a repeating 19 year lunar mathematical calculation that approximates the timing of each new moon sighting from Jerusalem. This allowed all the Jews to celebrate their feasts on the same day as they were now scattered all over the Earth

The fourth commandment; ‘Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy,’ has virtually been forgotten, a command more important than murder for example, which is the sixth commandment. Although we are saved by grace we should still use the ten commandments as our guide as to how to live. We are not dependant on the law but it will prosper us if we adhere to it, equally if we break these laws then we will face the consequences.

I hope this helps you to understand that the Sabbath is not on Saturdays or Sundays but instead can fall on any day of the pagan Julian/Gregorian week. You can view a comparison calendar on this site too, to know when the next Sabbaths will be: Sabbaths From Now Till 2029

Further studies on God’s Lunar Solar Calendar by other Bible scholars:

John D Keyser – founder of Hope of Israel ministries: From Sabbath to Saturday: The Story of the Jewish Rest Day

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:

God and Israel kept the Sabbath A long time before the Roman calendar as you say but you seem to have your facts wrong; all our unit of time are linked to physical phenomenon except the seven day week is has only the God of Israel as it's origin. The Romans kept the seven day sequence and the seventh day is still the seventh day. There are people always trying to change it; like having eight day weeks but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Bob S]

God and Israel kept the Sabbath A long time before the Roman calendar as you say but you seem to have your facts wrong; all our unit of time are linked to physical phenomenon except the seven day week is has only the God of Israel as it's origin. The Romans kept the seven day sequence and the seventh day is still the seventh day. There are people always trying to change it; like having eight day weeks but it hasn't happened yet.

Maybe you should study the International date line and see what happened when it became law. For Sabbath and Sunday observers what started at Sinai was moved back to the IDL. Instead of the day starting and ending at Sinai with the decree it backed up to where New Zealand and Australia began the day. Some peoples ignored their belief system and changed their worship day. In fact that is not the only example of the days changing. Unless one would use the Lunar system we could not be sure of anything.

 

[sparow]

Maybe you should study the International date line and see what happened when it became law. For Sabbath and Sunday observers what started at Sinai was moved back to the IDL. Instead of the day starting and ending at Sinai with the decree it backed up to where New Zealand and Australia began the day. Some peoples ignored their belief system and changed their worship day. In fact that is not the only example of the days changing. Unless one would use the Lunar system we could not be sure of anything.

Maybe you should study the mechanics of deception; what you are talking about is not what God does but what the world does. Given this this type of problem the world has a solution; it used Greenwich Mean Time; if this was a problem for Israel they could use Jerusalem Mean time all around the world; some places the Sabbath would begin through the day and they would have two daylight portions to their Sabbath. The Sabbath is going to be kept in the New Earth and there is no night so how will they count the days.

 

[Bob S]

Maybe you should study the mechanics of deception; what you are talking about is not what God does but what the world does. Given this this type of problem the world has a solution; it used Greenwich Mean Time; if this was a problem for Israel they could use Jerusalem Mean time all around the world; some places the Sabbath would begin through the day and they would have two daylight portions to their Sabbath. The Sabbath is going to be kept in the New Earth and there is no night so how will they count the days.

Throwing it back on me doesn't answer the problem. You have not proven me wrong with your non answer. Also, maybe you should get yourself informed before pounding the key board with false information. Greenwich Mean Time is solar the time measurement for the 24 hr period. It has no relevance and does not have anything to do with determining what day it is now in accordance with the original beginning of Sabbath given before the Israelites reached Sinai. If one is to observe the real Sabbath given at Sinai the international date line day would have to start at sundown on a latitude exactly running over Mt Sinai and proceed westward. Instead the Sabbath starts somewhere in the Pacific ocean and proceeds westward. Those east of the Sinai date line would observe the Sabbath a day later. If the date line went through the middle of Jerusalem those living on the west side of the city would observe the day a day sooner than those on the east side.

You may think that is funny and I am picking at straws, but read on my friend:

Published 9-May-2011. Changed 1-Sep-2011

Samoa will switch time zones by redrawing the international dateline.

Samoans jump into the future.

©iStockphoto.com/ugurhan

The change will occur at midnight on December 29, 2011, taking the Pacific island nation straight into December 31, 2011. Neighboring American Samoa will remain on the eastern side of the dateline, resulting in a time difference of a whole day between the two territories, which are a mere 30 miles apart.

Churches changed the day they were worshiping. This especially hit the SDA church and the last I heard is still a controversial issue with them.

What day is the real Sabbath? Actually, no one really knows. SDAs use a day and call it the real Sabbath day and try to draw people into believing they have the correct message for all mankind and if the remainder of the World will not fall in line with them they will be lost. The conundrum is that even in modern times SDAs are still arguing among themselves over the Samoa issue because they have churches there. Plus there is that ever problematic beginning of the IDL that has been swept under the rug of time, but is still an issue. And of course there is the fact that Israel did use the new moon to determine time. Were their Sabbaths always 7 days apart? Not if they used the moon to determine time because the moon is not on a 7 day cycle. If observing days would be so important that not doing so would mean our eternal salvation wouldn't you think our Heavenly Father would give us a better sign as to what day it really is in accordance with the issuing of the Sabbath to the Israelites on their journey to the promised land?

Even a better conundrum is that in the New Testament we are not admonished to observe any day. Our rest is in Jesus Christ our Savior and Rest. Some would have us under the laws of Israel, the old covenant which the remainder of the World was never asked, by God, to be under.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

God and Israel kept the Sabbath A long time before the Roman calendar as you say but you seem to have your facts wrong; all our unit of time are linked to physical phenomenon except the seven day week is has only the God of Israel as it's origin. The Romans kept the seven day sequence and the seventh day is still the seventh day. There are people always trying to change it; like having eight day weeks but it hasn't happened yet.

If you want to prove your statement with some citations then it would be worth considering.

 

[Armoured]

If you want to prove your statement with some citations then it would be worth considering.

Where are your citations about the Romans having an 8 day week? I've never heard that one before.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

Where are your citations about the Romans having an 8 day week? I've never heard that one before.

You only need to look it up:

Eight-day week - Wikipedia

roman 8 day week - Google Search

Now where can I look up your 'claim'?

 

[Armoured]

Now where can I look up your 'claim'?

I didn't make a claim

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I didn't make a claim

So you didn't.. it was 'sparrow' who made the original comment and I mistakenly thought it was you. My bad.

 

[Bob S]

Where are your citations about the Romans having an 8 day week? I've never heard that one before.

You don't get around much anymore.

 

[sparow]

Throwing it back on me doesn't answer the problem. You have not proven me wrong with your non answer. Also, maybe you should get yourself informed before pounding the key board with false information. Greenwich Mean Time is solar the time measurement for the 24 hr period. It has no relevance and does not have anything to do with determining what day it is now in accordance with the original beginning of Sabbath given before the Israelites reached Sinai. If one is to observe the real Sabbath given at Sinai the international date line day would have to start at sundown on a latitude exactly running over Mt Sinai and proceed westward. Instead the Sabbath starts somewhere in the Pacific ocean and proceeds westward. Those east of the Sinai date line would observe the Sabbath a day later. If the date line went through the middle of Jerusalem those living on the west side of the city would observe the day a day sooner than those on the east side.

You may think that is funny and I am picking at straws, but read on my friend:

Published 9-May-2011. Changed 1-Sep-2011

Samoa will switch time zones by redrawing the international dateline.

Samoans jump into the future.

©iStockphoto.com/ugurhan

The change will occur at midnight on December 29, 2011, taking the Pacific island nation straight into December 31, 2011. Neighboring American Samoa will remain on the eastern side of the dateline, resulting in a time difference of a whole day between the two territories, which are a mere 30 miles apart.

Churches changed the day they were worshiping. This especially hit the SDA church and the last I heard is still a controversial issue with them.

What day is the real Sabbath? Actually, no one really knows. SDAs use a day and call it the real Sabbath day and try to draw people into believing they have the correct message for all mankind and if the remainder of the World will not fall in line with them they will be lost. The conundrum is that even in modern times SDAs are still arguing among themselves over the Samoa issue because they have churches there. Plus there is that ever problematic beginning of the IDL that has been swept under the rug of time, but is still an issue. And of course there is the fact that Israel did use the new moon to determine time. Were their Sabbaths always 7 days apart? Not if they used the moon to determine time because the moon is not on a 7 day cycle. If observing days would be so important that not doing so would mean our eternal salvation wouldn't you think our Heavenly Father would give us a better sign as to what day it really is in accordance with the issuing of the Sabbath to the Israelites on their journey to the promised land?

Even a better conundrum is that in the New Testament we are not admonished to observe any day. Our rest is in Jesus Christ our Savior and Rest. Some would have us under the laws of Israel, the old covenant which the remainder of the World was never asked, by God, to be under.

Men create all problems. When the Bible was written there was no international date line; one would expect the need for a date line would only eventuate when people realised the earth was not flat. International date lined are arbitrary and are changed from time to time to overcome problems; the International date line is approximately 180 degrees east of Greenwich; individual groups have had their own date line:

""Judaism[edit]
For more details on this topic, see International date line in Judaism.
The concept of an international date line in Jewish law is first mentioned by 12th-century decisors.[27][28] But it was not until the introduction of improved transportation and communications systems in the 20th century that the question of an international date line truly became a question of practical Jewish law.[29]

As a practical matter, the conventional International Date Line—or another line in the Pacific Ocean close to it—serves as a de facto date line for purposes of Jewish law, at least in existing Jewish communities. For example, residents of the Jewish communities of Japan,[30] New Zealand,[31] Hawaii,[32] and French Polynesia[33] all observe Shabbat on local Saturday. However, there is not unanimity as to how Jewish law reaches that conclusion. For this reason, some authorities rule that certain aspects of Sabbath observance are required on Sunday (in Japan and New Zealand) or Friday (in Hawaii and French Polynesia) in addition to Saturday. Additionally, there are differences of opinion as to which day or days individual Jews traveling in the Pacific region away from established Jewish communities should observe Shabbat.[27][28]

For individuals crossing the date line, the change of calendar date influences some aspects of practice under Jewish law. Yet other aspects depend on an individual's experience of sunsets and sunrises to count days, notwithstanding the calendar date.[27][28]""

The problem the SDA had was the date line cut an island in half such that half the Island was Sunday when the other side of the Island was Saturday. Because the date line is arbitrary and man made the SDA could move it for their own purposes.

Your perceptions of the New Testament are in error. The NT does change the Law in any way in fact Jesus said specifically that the Law may not be changed. All the pope and many prominent Catholics continue to say that there is no scriptural authority for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, there is only the authority of the Church for the change; they offer a reward for anyone producing scriptural authority for the change, about $4,000.00 I believe.

If there is no scriptural authority for changing the Sabbath there is no scriptural authority for abrogating the Law because keeping the Sabbath is a sign that the whole Law is kept.

I should add that Jewish Law is not necessarily the same as Biblical Law.

 

[sparow]

Maybe you should study the International date line and see what happened when it became law. For Sabbath and Sunday observers what started at Sinai was moved back to the IDL. Instead of the day starting and ending at Sinai with the decree it backed up to where New Zealand and Australia began the day. Some peoples ignored their belief system and changed their worship day. In fact that is not the only example of the days changing. Unless one would use the Lunar system we could not be sure of anything.

The Laws of men cannot determine times for the people of God; they can persecute the people of God for non-compliance.

 

[Bob S]

Men create all problems. When the Bible was written there was no international date line; one would expect the need for a date line would only eventuate when people realised the earth was not flat. International date lined are arbitrary and are changed from time to time to overcome problems; the International date line is approximately 180 degrees east of Greenwich; individual groups have had their own date line:

When the Israelites were given the law they were to become a theocracy which covered a very small part of the Earth. There was no worry as to when God's Sabbaths were to be observed. That was a simple fact.

""Judaism[edit]
For more details on this topic, see International date line in Judaism.
The concept of an international date line in Jewish law is first mentioned by 12th-century decisors.[27][28] But it was not until the introduction of improved transportation and communications systems in the 20th century that the question of an international date line truly became a question of practical Jewish law.[29]

As a practical matter, the conventional International Date Line—or another line in the Pacific Ocean close to it—serves as a de facto date line for purposes of Jewish law, at least in existing Jewish communities. For example, residents of the Jewish communities of Japan,[30] New Zealand,[31] Hawaii,[32] and French Polynesia[33] all observe Shabbat on local Saturday. However, there is not unanimity as to how Jewish law reaches that conclusion. For this reason, some authorities rule that certain aspects of Sabbath observance are required on Sunday (in Japan and New Zealand) or Friday (in Hawaii and French Polynesia) in addition to Saturday. Additionally, there are differences of opinion as to which day or days individual Jews traveling in the Pacific region away from established Jewish communities should observe Shabbat.[27][28]

For individuals crossing the date line, the change of calendar date influences some aspects of practice under Jewish law. Yet other aspects depend on an individual's experience of sunsets and sunrises to count days, notwithstanding the calendar date.[27][28]""

Interesting and follows right along as to what I have been posting. Man has to make the final decision and there are times when man is wrong.

The problem the SDA had was the date line cut an island in half such that half the Island was Sunday when the other side of the Island was Saturday. Because the date line is arbitrary and man made the SDA could move it for their own purposes.

As far as I know the island was never cut in half because of the date line. They moved it from West of the island to the east because they traded with the orient and Australia and wanted to be closer to the same time.

Your perceptions of the New Testament are in error. The NT does change the Law in any way in fact Jesus said specifically that the Law may not be changed.

My perceptions are right on focus. It is your unwillingness to recognize Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

See that underlined portion of verse 18? Now look at Jn 19:30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus had achieved His purpose for being here on Earth. He kept the Law, gave His life so that man might gain eternal life and ushered in the new covenant, ratified by His Blood on the Cross. The old ended and the new began. Spiritual man has known this since the first Bible was put together. We have the Old Testament and the New. For you to suggest that gentiles somehow have to morph into Israelites and observe laws that became the laws of death is ludicrous. 2Cor3:
7 The old way with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!

it is evident you are not familiar with the New Testament writings or you would have read that the old way of laws etched on stone are no longer God's plan for Israelites. The old way brought condemnation. The new way makes us right with God. Then new way is Jesus gift to us, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is our guide not the law.

Since we are no longer under the 10 commandments which contained the Sabbath command Paul was able to write that the Sabbath is but a shadow. Col 2: 16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

All the pope and many prominent Catholics continue to say that there is no scriptural authority for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, there is only the authority of the Church for the change; they offer a reward for anyone producing scriptural authority for the change, about $4,000.00 I believe.

The Pope is correct. Why would there be a change when the Sabbath became a shadow at the cross?

If there is no scriptural authority for changing the Sabbath there is no scriptural authority for abrogating the Law because keeping the Sabbath is a sign that the whole Law is kept.

The law was abrogated at the Cross. No change was needed. If you cannot understand that then do all the law imposes on you. YOU say you cannot because there inn o Temple and priesthood. Poor excuse if you believe you are under the law.

Where are those purple tassels I like to wear to work. I wish I could find a good 100% wool pair of pants and are those t shirts and shorts 100% cotton. This kosher thing is getting me down. I worry about all the things I have to do OY VEY! what a mess.

I should add that Jewish Law is not necessarily the same as Biblical Law.

acknowledged

 

[sparow]

When the Israelites were given the law they were to become a theocracy which covered a very small part of the Earth. There was no worry as to when God's Sabbaths were to be observed. That was a simple fact.


Interesting and follows right along as to what I have been posting. Man has to make the final decision and there are times when man is wrong.


As far as I know the island was never cut in half because of the date line. They moved it from West of the island to the east because they traded with the orient and Australia and wanted to be closer to the same time.


My perceptions are right on focus. It is your unwillingness to recognize Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

See that underlined portion of verse 18? Now look at Jn 19:30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Jesus had achieved His purpose for being here on Earth. He kept the Law, gave His life so that man might gain eternal life and ushered in the new covenant, ratified by His Blood on the Cross. The old ended and the new began. Spiritual man has known this since the first Bible was put together. We have the Old Testament and the New. For you to suggest that gentiles somehow have to morph into Israelites and observe laws that became the laws of death is ludicrous. 2Cor3:
7 The old way with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! 10 In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. 11 So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!

it is evident you are not familiar with the New Testament writings or you would have read that the old way of laws etched on stone are no longer God's plan for Israelites. The old way brought condemnation. The new way makes us right with God. Then new way is Jesus gift to us, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is our guide not the law.

Since we are no longer under the 10 commandments which contained the Sabbath command Paul was able to write that the Sabbath is but a shadow. Col 2: 16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.


The Pope is correct. Why would there be a change when the Sabbath became a shadow at the cross?


The law was abrogated at the Cross. No change was needed. If you cannot understand that then do all the law imposes on you. YOU say you cannot because there inn o Temple and priesthood. Poor excuse if you believe you are under the law.

Where are those purple tassels I like to wear to work. I wish I could find a good 100% wool pair of pants and are those t shirts and shorts 100% cotton. This kosher thing is getting me down. I worry about all the things I have to do OY VEY! what a mess.

acknowledged

The international date line has nothing to do with God, He did not create it. The Sabbath was the day after the six days of creation, God rested on the seventh day and sanctified the Sabbath. The Sabbath is important to God; its domain is the whole of creation, not just a small patch in the middle east. God was the first to keep the Sabbath and He will probably be the last.

What was given to Moses was a type of the kingdom of God, so the need for the Law of the Kingdom.

Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear ""until its purpose is achieved""

This is evil, a lie, it is not an error of translation or an alternate translation; the translations that I have say "until all is fulfilled" or "until all is accomplished", two say " till all things come to pass. All or all things, are not referring to the Law achieving anything, it refers to everything we have been told and possibly more about what is going to happen; Prophesy extends at least to the second resurrection and the destruction of Gog and Magog, the second death.

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All does not refer to the Law but to the kingdom of God and all of its creation and continuing existence.


John 19:30 (NKJV)
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

There are people who actually think Jesus finished keeping the Law having kept it perfectly. But Jesus refers to what happened in John 19 as being finished and it was the vinegar that He was given to drink that signalled the finish, which was a prophesy fulfilled.

Genesis 3:5 (NKJV)
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Psalm 2:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."

Isaiah 50:6 (NKJV)
6 I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

Psalm 69:21 (NKJV)
21 They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


""Jesus had achieved His purpose for being here on Earth. He kept the Law,""

What does the Jesus say his purpose for coming was: 1 John 3:8 (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

How does Jesus destroy the works of the devil and when is that achieved? First the covenant which is one purpose for his coming, to confirm the covenant; we can also say what was finished was the confirming of the covenant, the covenant made with Moses and renewed several times. The sorting of sheep from goats and last the second death for the wicked.


Dispensationalists take the confirming the covenant away from Christ and give it to Satan.

Jesus is the true shepherd and the spirit that leads people away from the Law is the spirit of anti-Christ.

Your arguments are the teaching of men not the teaching of God.

 

[Bob S]

The international date line has nothing to do with God, He did not create it. The Sabbath was the day after the six days of creation, God rested on the seventh day and sanctified the Sabbath. The Sabbath is important to God; its domain is the whole of creation, not just a small patch in the middle east. God was the first to keep the Sabbath and He will probably be the last.

Why does all this sound so familiar? Are you SDA?

The date line, if you are SDA, has everything to do with God. His children are not observing the same day He is. They are out of sync. How can you go to heaven observing the wrong day?
God keeps all His creation in place, some planets giving light, some controlling tides, at least one sustaining life. So you tell me He is resting on the Sabbath. Jn5:16-18 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. God rested from His work of creating and Jesus tells us He is working. You tell me He is resting. Now who do you think I will believe? He rested from doing any creating, but that does not mean He rested from sustaining.

What was given to Moses was a type of the kingdom of God, so the need for the Law of the Kingdom.

Moses didn't enter the promised land. It was not given to him. How did Moses get into this picture?

Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear ""until its purpose is achieved""

This is evil, a lie, it is not an error of translation or an alternate translation; the translations that I have say "until all is fulfilled" or "until all is accomplished", two say " till all things come to pass. All or all things, are not referring to the Law achieving anything, it refers to everything we have been told and possibly more about what is going to happen; Prophesy extends at least to the second resurrection and the destruction of Gog and Magog, the second death.

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All does not refer to the Law but to the kingdom of God and all of its creation and continuing existence.

That is plain poppycock, nonsense, bosh. Look at the subject. The subject is the Law not all things. It is beyond belief that otherwise intelligent people will, because of their preconceived ideas, twist scripture to suit those preconceived ideas.

John 19:30 (NKJV)
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

There are people who actually think Jesus finished keeping the Law having kept it perfectly. But Jesus refers to what happened in John 19 as being finished and it was the vinegar that He was given to drink that signalled the finish, which was a prophesy fulfilled.

Vinegar??? That is a stretch and funny. He signaled that what He came to do was finished.

Genesis 3:5 (NKJV)
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Psalm 2:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."

Isaiah 50:6 (NKJV)
6 I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

Psalm 69:21 (NKJV)
21 They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


""Jesus had achieved His purpose for being here on Earth. He kept the Law,""

His purpose was to keep the law? I guess the sideline was to save mankind.

What does the Jesus say his purpose for coming was: 1 John 3:8 (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

I will admit Jesus has destroyed satan's ability to destroy mankind. The fact is that John 3:16 says: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

How does Jesus destroy the works of the devil and when is that achieved? First the covenant which is one purpose for his coming, to confirm the covenant; we can also say what was finished was the confirming of the covenant, the covenant made with Moses and renewed several times. The sorting of sheep from goats and last the second death for the wicked.

Where do you get this stuff?

Dispensationalists take the confirming the covenant away from Christ and give it to Satan.
Jesus is the true shepherd and the spirit that leads people away from the Law is the spirit of anti-Christ.

The "Law" was given by God to Israel and Israel only. It was the covenant between Israel and God. It was not the covenant concerning any other nation. The covenant ended at Calvary. The sign of the covenant ending was the tearing of the veil in the Temple. The law ended with the death of our Savior. Further, we know from Jesus prophesy of the destruction of the Temple in AD70 and the scattering of Jews all over the World that the old had ended and the New and better everlasting covenant would start at the end of the old one.

Jesus is the true shepherd and the spirit that leads people away from the Law is the spirit of anti-Christ.
Your arguments are the teaching of men not the teaching of God.

My arguments come straight from scripture without any twisting to make them fit my preconceived religious beliefs. I would admonish you to go read your Bible and stop making excuses and statement that are not true and tested by scripture. The old covenant ended at the Cross. The old was a covenant of laws, the new covenant is the covenant of grace, marvelous grace. Christian's law is the law of love which surpasses all other law.

 

[bugkiller]

The international date line has nothing to do with God, He did not create it. The Sabbath was the day after the six days of creation, God rested on the seventh day and sanctified the Sabbath. The Sabbath is important to God; its domain is the whole of creation, not just a small patch in the middle east. God was the first to keep the Sabbath and He will probably be the last.

What was given to Moses was a type of the kingdom of God, so the need for the Law of the Kingdom.

Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear ""until its purpose is achieved""

This is evil, a lie, it is not an error of translation or an alternate translation; the translations that I have say "until all is fulfilled" or "until all is accomplished", two say " till all things come to pass. All or all things, are not referring to the Law achieving anything, it refers to everything we have been told and possibly more about what is going to happen; Prophesy extends at least to the second resurrection and the destruction of Gog and Magog, the second death.

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

All does not refer to the Law but to the kingdom of God and all of its creation and continuing existence.


John 19:30 (NKJV)
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

There are people who actually think Jesus finished keeping the Law having kept it perfectly. But Jesus refers to what happened in John 19 as being finished and it was the vinegar that He was given to drink that signalled the finish, which was a prophesy fulfilled.

What a cute and novel dismissal.

Genesis 3:5 (NKJV)
5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Psalm 2:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us."

Isaiah 50:6 (NKJV)
6 I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

Psalm 69:21 (NKJV)
21 They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


""Jesus had achieved His purpose for being here on Earth. He kept the Law,""

What does the Jesus say his purpose for coming was: 1 John 3:8 (NKJV)
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

How does Jesus destroy the works of the devil and when is that achieved? First the covenant which is one purpose for his coming, to confirm the covenant; we can also say what was finished was the confirming of the covenant, the covenant made with Moses and renewed several times. The sorting of sheep from goats and last the second death for the wicked.


Dispensationalists take the confirming the covenant away from Christ and give it to Satan.

Please explain.

Jesus is the true shepherd and the spirit that leads people away from the Law is the spirit of anti-Christ.

How do you arrive at such a conclusion? Are you also bypassing Jer 31 and 3 Gospels (Mat 26:28, Mk 14:24 and LK 22:20.

Your arguments are the teaching of men not the teaching of God.

Yep the Scripture is wrong.

bugkiller

 

[sparow]

What a cute and novel dismissal. Please explain.How do you arrive at such a conclusion? Are you also bypassing Jer 31 and 3 Gospels (Mat 26:28, Mk 14:24 and LK 22:20.Yep the Scripture is wrong.

bugkiller

I do not know what your are accusing me of dismissing, so I cannot explain; you seem to be taking my arguments out of the context of the debate I was having with the other bloke.

I never considered my post as consisting of conclusions so I wonder what you call a conclusion;

That the I AM of the OT became Jesus, God in human form, and as Jesus He would not contradict what He said as the I AM.

"The spirit that leads people away from the Law is the spirit of anti-Christ."" this is a conclusion but I would call it an interpretation.

Jesus and the OT, which really is one testament, teaches only the keeping of the Law which is also called the covenant, never the abrogating of the Law or changing of the Law. At least in two places in the OT the Law (also called the covenant) was to go to the gentiles at some time in the future.

In Daniel we read, "He will change Laws and times." and "He will confirm the covenant". The dispensationalists have Christ changing Laws and times (which never happened) and have Satan confirming a covenant.

Christ confirmed the covenant by fulfilling everything said of him in the Law and the Prophets up until the drinking of vinegar; there is more to come; but the covenant being confirmed is God's covenant first given to Israel via Moses, but renewed many times; last renewed with the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles but extended unchanged to the Gentiles in around Acts 3.

 

[sparow]

What a cute and novel dismissal. Please explain.How do you arrive at such a conclusion? Are you also bypassing Jer 31 and 3 Gospels (Mat 26:28, Mk 14:24 and LK 22:20.Yep the Scripture is wrong.

bugkiller

Jer 31; speaks of the Law he knows being written on the hearts and minds, not something that may remain after the Law is abrogated.

Matt 26:28, Mark 14:24, in the original text the word new is not used in these verses; "This is my blood of the covenant"; only in Luke 22:20 is the word new used and the Greek word means fresh. Your error cannot be blamed on the scripture, possibly on translator/interpreters.