Monk Brendan

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“If you wish to have must [grape juice] all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch; sink it in a fishpond. After thirty days take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year” (De Agri Cultura CXX).

This quote is, in fact, not true. I'm not saying that the quote is wrong. I am saying that doing what the quote says will only slow down the fermentation of the yeast. It will still end up being wine.

Another point is that the fermented wine of earlier times did not have nearly the level of potency the wines today have,

Forgive me, but yeast will continue to work in grape juice until the alcohol reaches a maximum of 12.5% This will kill the yeast. It doesn't matter if the fermented juice is at 32 degrees or 90 degrees. Fermentation will continue until it reaches 12.5%, at which point the yeast dies. This is the same percentage as what wine is today.

Yes, you can play around (today) with the type of yeast you are using and get a higher or lower alcohol content. But the wild yeast that lives on the outside skin of the grape will begin fermentation and will not stop until it is dead.

And if you boil the wine, the wine will quickly spoil, and won't even be fit for use as vinegar.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Wine is used in the bible to describe both grape juice and fermented juice (what we call exclusively wine today).

Since when? Oinos--Wine in Greek is just that, wine--fermented grape juice. It is not just non-fermented grape juice. BTW, if you haven't been reading my other posts, fermentation begins the moment a grape is crushed. Yeast lives one the outside skin of the grape. As soon as it is crushed, the yeast goes to work.
 
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Hank77

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This is easily proven by the fact that Paul had to tell them not to get drunk in theri comunnion feast, as some had a tendency to do!
I had totally forgotten about this scripture, very good point. Thank you.

1Co 11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place--it is not to eat the Lord's supper;
1Co 11:21 for each his own supper doth take before in the eating, and one is hungry, and another is drunk;

Someone now will say that Paul didn't really mean drunk.
G3184
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
G3178
methē
meth'-ay
Apparently a primary word; an intoxicant, that is, (by implication) intoxication: - drunkenness.
 
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How long does it take grape juice to ferment into wine?

Doesn't matter. The Bible talks about 3 different versions of wine.
See Post #55. Also, there is no way that the wine (fresh grape juice) Jesus made would have immediately fermented to a point of being strong in alcoholic content by the time the guests drank it (if that is what you are suggesting).

Also, did you just glaze over the Scriptural points I made within the post you quoted? I believe I made a very convincing case with Scripture. If you disagree, please show us why.


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OK if what I asked doesn't matter ......

We live in the internet age. So there is no reason that nobody should not know.

Google says,
"Primary fermentation took three to five days and produced 70% of our alcohol while secondary fermentation takes up to two weeks just to get the last 30%. The foam will disappear and you will see tiny bubbles breaking at the surface of your wine. Your airlock will now be bubbling every 30 seconds or so."

Anyways, the reason why I said it does not matter is because the Israelites stored their wine in a fully fermented state and yet when it came time for them to drink of it, they diluted it with water whereby it is not strong in alcoholic content. Back then, barbarians would drink wine undiluted. Granted, the only time the Israelites would allow for someone to drink of fully fermented wine was if they were in pain (as a medical treatment). But the Israelites were not barbarians, though.

But the wine that Jesus made was not like the Wine the Israelites stored and diluted, though. Jesus's wine miracle was freshly squeezed grape juice. For the wine (grape juice) was a picture or type of Jesus's sinless blood. If the wine had leaven in it (i.e. alcohol), it could not represent Jesus's sinless blood. For this miracle magnified Christ's glory.


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patdee

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Here is a point that hasn't been made in this thread.


Distilled liquor had not been invented in Biblical times. The Bible says nothing directly about it but certainly does not condone it. Distillation of alcoholic drinks was invented by the Arabs in north Africa in the 11th century. It spread to parts of Europe by the 13th century.


We can say definitively that Jesus never consumed any distilled liquors or fortified wine. Everything that I know indicates that people are better off to stay away from distilled liquor.

I rarely ever respond to a post that takes issue with my comments.........but I assure you, regardless of your "Historical facts", that Jesus DID turn water into alcoholic wine. Oh indeed yes. But He would be the first to say, "Do NOT drink it enough to get drunk. Like a "little wine at dinner" is NOT a sin. But it can be if you exceed a small drink at dinner. And NEVER drink "strong drink". (Wine is not considered strong drink)

But the problem is: MOST all can not continue (over time) with a little glass of wine. For they will almost always seek more and more alcohol; for it is very addictive. Which then leads to all kinds of drinking and other horrors"

So I am certain Jesus would also tell the world today, "I never condoned drinking until one is drunk; I want you to drink wine cautiously; just like you should NOT eat to glutenous either; even though you MUST eat to live. The same goes for PURE water. For one CAN die from drinking too much water also.

Put all of your faith in me; and I will guide you always, when it is enough, in ALL that you do. But IF you depend upon yourselves; satan will ALWAYS tempt you to get drunk AND eat to glutenousness, etc. Thus: the more you drink OR eat, etc, it will cause you to sin every time! IE: drunkenness or getting fat; or any thing else you do; which over time will kill you and lead to lasciviousness, debauchery and decadence. For all scenarios are the same."

(For whatever it's worth: I do NOT drink. I am a devout "Tee Teetotaler" in the truest sense of the word for 84 years; because I do not want to risk it. I also eat moderately; and thus I stay pretty close to what is normal for my frame. I thank Jesus for guiding me in this wisdom, and Praise His Holy Name every day for his direction. And thankfully I put all my faith IN Him alone. I would that all should do this.)

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always
 
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I rarely ever respond to a post that takes issue with my comments.........but I assure you, regardless of your "Historical facts", that Jesus DID turn water into alcoholic wine. Oh indeed yes. But He would be the first to say, "Do NOT drink it enough to get drunk. Like a "little wine at dinner" is NOT a sin. But it can be if you exceed a small drink at dinner. And NEVER drink "strong drink". (Wine is not considered strong drink)

But the problem is: MOST all can not continue (over time) with a little glass of wine. For they will almost always seek more and more alcohol; for it is very addictive. Which then leads to all kinds of drinking and other horrors"

So I am certain Jesus would also tell the world today, "I never condoned drinking until one is drunk; I want you to drink wine cautiously; just like you should NOT eat to glutenous either; even though you MUST eat to live. The same goes for PURE water. For one CAN die from drinking too much water also.

Put all of your faith in me; and I will guide you always, when it is enough, in ALL that you do. But IF you depend upon yourselves; satan will ALWAYS tempt you to get drunk AND eat to glutenousness, etc. Thus: the more you drink OR eat, etc, it will cause you to sin every time! IE: drunkenness or getting fat; or any thing else you do; which over time will kill you and lead to lasciviousness, debauchery and decadence. For all scenarios are the same."

(For whatever it's worth: I do NOT drink. I am a devout "Tee Teetotaler" in the truest sense of the word for 84 years; because I do not want to risk it. I also eat moderately; and thus I stay pretty close to what is normal for my frame. I thank Jesus for guiding me in this wisdom, and Praise His Holy Name every day for his direction. And thankfully I put all my faith IN Him alone. I would that all should do this.)

In any case, May Jesus richly bless you and yours always

No. Jesus did not make alcoholic wine. In John chapter 2, it says that the people at the wedding party were already "well drunk." If this was speaking of alcoholic wine, then that means they were intoxicated or at least tipsy. Jesus making even more intoxicating wine would have contributed to their drunkenness (Which is not possible because it is a sin to be drunk).


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Paul Yohannan

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In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine

Which He did.

He would have broken Scripture in a number of places

No scripture precludes the consumption of wine by non-Naziris.

and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink

It is. St. Paul even directs St. Timothy to take a small amount of wine.
 
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Jesus uses the analogy of putting new wine in old wine skins. Would the wine skins burst if the wine was not fermenting? If it wasn't intended to ferment and used before fermentation why would there be a concern about putting it in old wine skins?
Why would Jesus use this analogy if drinking fermented wine was taboo? He seems odd to me that He would especially when use it to represent the old and new covenants.
new wine ie the Gospel going to people who are not converted religious.(old wine skins plus Old wine) = (it all right to drink in moderation)

(alcoholic old wine (sin and compromise) goes in old wine skins) Pharisees, scribes, sadducees, and unsaved gentiles.

New wine teachings of Christ, the apostles and prophets in news wine skin ie people who have been swept clean, born again regenerated in spirit, accepted the good news of the gospel, indwelt with the Holy spirit (new wine) abstaining from the very appearance of evil [alcoholic wine and strong drink] SOBER CHRISTIANS DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOLIC WINE OR STRONG DRINK FULL STOP
 
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Since when? Oinos--Wine in Greek is just that, wine--fermented grape juice. It is not just non-fermented grape juice. .

The key word here is not JUST non-fermented grape juice. I see no disagreement here.


BTW, if you haven't been reading my other posts, fermentation begins the moment a grape is crushed. Yeast lives one the outside skin of the grape. As soon as it is crushed, the yeast goes to work

I have no problem with this, see my post on grape juice and wine.
 
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JackRT

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Since when? Oinos--Wine in Greek is just that, wine--fermented grape juice. It is not just non-fermented grape juice. BTW, if you haven't been reading my other posts, fermentation begins the moment a grape is crushed. Yeast lives one the outside skin of the grape. As soon as it is crushed, the yeast goes to work.

You and I have been trying to tell them this through this whole thread. Frustrating isn't it?
 
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Caminator

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Here is a letter written to the Assemblies of God, written by a pastor who prefers his own humanistic wisdom over the wisdom of God drawn from the Scriptures. He states right at the beginning why the Bible is not enough. Experience holds more authority.

Do We Have Room for Alcohol in the Assemblies of God?

Many are trying to decide whether or not we should loosen our stand against drinking alcohol, based solely on what the scripture says or doesn't say. While I agree that the Bible is the ultimate rule for the lives of believers and is the best way to govern our societies, I also believe that there are things that are not covered in specificity but are covered by the law of sowing and reaping. While I can't find a pure statement in the Bible that completely outlaws the consumption of alcohol I can say that the fruit of its use is a harvest no one wants.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say that over 88,000 people die each year because of sickness or disease that can be directly related to the use of alcohol. The U.S. Library of Medicine says there are 1.2 million visits to local emergency rooms because of alcohol, creating 7,459 unintended deaths, 28,696 murders, 19,347 suicides, and 10,228 deaths involving automobiles, and all at a cost to the U.S. economy of $223,500,000,000.00. What can't be reported or even tracked is how many kids are abused by drunken parents or guardians and how many homes and lives are destroyed because of alcohol use.

Why would we want to bring this evil into the lives of believers? Many have come to us to be delivered from it and its results. Have we forgotten the teaching of Paul that we should not do anything (even if it is not a sin) if it could offend our brother? This is not a "can we" issue; it is a "should we" issue!

It's like the generation that built the barricade between their town and the river that ran beside them. They built it because it flooded and destroyed all they had spent their lives building. They said, "We can't control the river and even though it's nice to look at, it's nice to have easy access to it, we never know when it's going to flood. So let's protect ourselves and our children by raising a standard so high that it can't get to where we live." Later, however, after that generation had passed away the children said, "What were our parents thinking? Why should we live behind such a high standard? If we take it down we will be able to see the beautiful river and enjoy all of its assets." They did take it down and the river did flood, and they lost both what they and their parents had built!

The generation who did not come directly out of a sin-ravaged situation but out of a Christ-blessed home may not value the high standards of the past generation as they should, but that does not change the law of sowing and reaping. What we sow or allowed to be sown will produce its fruit and if we lower our standards someone's children will pay for it!

Just as alcohol impaired the thinking of Herod when he commanded the head of John the Baptist it continues to impair the thinking of people everywhere. It creates an atmosphere and opportunity for sin which ultimately produces death. Sin kills relationships, futures, and eternities. Why would we want anything in our lives that impairs our thinking and makes sin seem less deadly? The drinking of alcohol in itself may not be sin, but no one can deny that it creates an atmosphere for sin to operate.

As we consider this in the light of the law of sowing and reaping rather than simply as legal or illegal, we should look first at the fruit that comes from the activity, both good and bad, and take our stand either for or against, based on its potential results. This I know—once you plant the seed someone will have to deal with its fruit, and once you take down the standard someone will have to deal with the flood! It is not just, "Can I do it and still go to heaven?" It is also, "If I open this door will my grandchildren end up paying for it?"

So, in my opinion, we should not make room for drinking in the lives of the leaders or the culture of the Assemblies of God!

Pastor Rick Dubose

But "...His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness..."

Nope. Not good enough. Too many lives have been destroyed. God's way obviously hasn't worked.
 
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AlexDTX

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It seems to me that there was a time during which Jesus did drink alcohol. I have always heard and been taught that He didn't drink wine, but it seems He did. He would've had to drink alcohol at least once and the people saw Him and exaggerated it...

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” - Matt 11:18-19

Any thoughts?
I do not believe it to be all that important, just interesting. We must always do what the Lord tells us to do individually of course. If He says to not drink then don't drink.
Yes he drank wine. It is religious twisting of Scripture trying to say he did not.
 
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Which He did.

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk," (John 2:10).

Jesus brought forth the best wine until last when men at the Wedding of Cana had already been drank well (drunk well) of the substance that was at the wedding. This means that if the substance at the wedding was alcoholic, and they drank well of this substance, they would have been tipsy or intoxicated at least. Jesus making even more intoxicating wine would have contributed to them in being drunk (Which is a sin).

So it is impossible that Jesus made alcoholic wine.


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"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk," (John 2:10).

Jesus brought forth the best wine until last when men at the Wedding of Cana had already been drank well (drunk well) of the substance that was at the wedding. This means that if the substance at the wedding was alcoholic, and they drank well of this substance, they would have been tipsy or intoxicated at least. Jesus making even more intoxicating wine would have contributed to them in being drunk (Which is a sin).

So it is impossible that Jesus made alcoholic wine.


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It is in no respect a sin to get a bit buzzed at a wedding.
 
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LOL this post shows a complete lack of cultural context as well as the wine stewards own words. I can assure you 100% that it was REAL WINE and NOT grape juice.

One's palate DOES NOT become dulled by drinking grape juice. John 2: 10 and *said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have [d]drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”

At ANY event where wine is served you serve the best wine first because as you drink it the alcohol dulls your palate.... Sommilie's spit wine out after tasting it and usually will use a sour sorbet to clear their pallet so that they can continue grading wines.

Unfermented Grape juice does not and CAN NOT dull your pallet. The people at the wedding were drinking REAL WINE>

Finally, I seemingly say this in almost every single post I make... one must STOP reading scripture from a western cultural mindset. It is NOT a western book.

It is a JEWISH book written by JEWISH MEN in a JEWISH state with Jewish Idiom's along with a Jewish cultural context.

Got news for you... YESHUA was a JEW.
Words have meaning and nepho refers to physical abstinence and Christians are commanded to abstain- nepho.

Those who advocate social drinking are only assuming the "wine" Christ made was alcoholic in nature.

John 2:11 this was the first of Jesus' miracles and the purpose of performing these miracles was to manifest His glory and induce a belief in people. Christ committing a sin by contributing to others drunkenness would not fulfill the purpose of miracles. Therefore for this one reason alone we can know for a fact Christ did not create an alcoholic beverage.

Albert Barnes on what the "good wine" was at that time:

The good wine - This shows that this had all the qualities of real wine. We should not be deceived by the phrase “good wine.” We often use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength and its power to intoxicate; but no such sense is to be attached to the word here. Pliny, Plutarch, and Horace describe wine as “good,” or mention that as “the best wine,” which was harmless or “innocent” - poculo vini “innocentis.”The most useful wine - “utilissimum vinum” - was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine - “saluberrimum vinum” - was that which had not been adulterated by “the addition of anything to the ‹must‘ or juice.” Pliny expressly says that a good wine was one that was destitute of spirit (lib. iv. c. 13). It should not be assumed, therefore, that the “good wine” was “stronger” than the other: it is rather to be presumed that it was milder.

The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine, nor drugged wine, nor wine compounded of various substances, such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape. we use the word “wine” now to denote the kind of liquid which passes under that name in this country - always containing a considerable portion of alcohol not only the alcohol produced by fermentation, but alcohol “added” to keep it or make it stronger. But we have no right to take that sense of the word, and go with it to the interpretation of the Scriptures. We should endeavor to place ourselves in the exact circumstances of those times, ascertain precisely what idea the word would convey to those who used it then, and apply that sense to the word in the interpretation of the Bible; and there is not the slightest evidence that the word so used would have conveyed any idea but that of the pure juice of the grape, nor the slightest circumstance mentioned in this account that would not be fully met by such a supposition.

Good wine is grape juice. They did not have sweet sugar as we do today. Fermentation removes the sweetness from the juice yet it was that sweetness they loved to taste.
 
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Yes he drank wine. It is religious twisting of Scripture trying to say he did not.

The word "wine" did not always mean alcoholic. Hence, why people are confused on this topic.




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It is in no respect a sin to get a bit buzzed at a wedding.

Being buzzed or tipsy is a direct violation of Scripture because God's Word commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Is being tipsy mean you are sober minded? Also, Paul even warns that drunknenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21). Besides, lets say being tispy with wine is not a sin, "Why take a chance on walking on the edge of losing one's salvation by being more easily influenced into getting drunk by being tipsy? Your judgment is impaired when you drink alcohol.



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