Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Major1]

We meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in THE Air in 1 Thess refers to the COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You are incorrect now as you were 10 minutes ago brother. Repeating your claims over and over is not going to make them valid.

We meet Jesus in the AIR in 1 Thess. and that is confirmed in 1 Corth. No where in any Scriptures is a view of Jesus touching the ground UNTIL Zech. 14 which is a picture of Him at Armageddon.

The tribulation Period according to Daniel is 7 Years and it makes no logical sense for the church/believers to go through a 7 year period that is specifically designated for the Jews and to bring them to Christ.

Believers are already with Christ so what would be the point-to judge and persecute the believers BECAUSE THEY ACTULLY BELIEVED?????

You believe that but there is no way I will believe that. If that is your reasoning, then so be for you, but not me. One thing that God is, and that is logical. Everything He says and does makes perfect logical sense and it makes no sense to me for believers to go through what is being perpetrated on the Jews to bring them to salvation in Christ when they are already saved!!!!!

 

[Riberra]

NOPE. TWO separate event separated by 7 years!

1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says.........
“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 3:10 .........

"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. "

Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

You have chosen to reject that and all I can say is I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you.

You preach that there is 2 Coming of Jesus yet to come.While the Church Fathers and the Bible tell us about ONLY ONE Coming of Jesus yet to come.

What you say about 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 can be found nearly words for words in Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, by John Nelson Darby, [1857-62],who create 2 Coming of Jesus yet to Come out of thin air...
Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby: 1 Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4
Darby about Paul's writings:
''In this part of the passage, where he explains the details of our ascension to the Lord in the air nothing is said of His coming down to the earth; it is our going up (as He went up) to be with Him. [See Note #8] Neither, as far as concerns us, does the apostle go farther than our gathering together to be for ever with Him. Nothing is said either of judgment or of manifestation; but only the fact of our heavenly association with Him in that we leave the earth precisely as He left it. This is very precious. There is this difference: He went up in His own full right, He ascended; as to us, His voice calls the dead, and they come forth from the grave, and, the living being changed, all are caught up together. It is a solemn act of God's power, which seals the Christians' life and the work of God, and brings the former into the glory of Christ as His heavenly companions. Glorious privilege! Precious grace! To lose sight of it destroys the proper character of our joy and of our hope.

Other consequences follow, which are the result of His manifestation; but that is our portion, our hope. We leave the earth as He did, we shall for ever be with Him."

 

[Major1]

You preach that there is 2 Coming of Jesus yet to come.While the Church Fathers and the Bible tell us about ONLY ONE Coming of Jesus yet to come.

What you say about 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 can be found nearly words for words in Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, by John Nelson Darby, [1857-62],who create 2 Coming of Jesus yet to Come out of thin air...
Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby: 1 Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4

In this part of the passage, where he explains the details of our ascension to the Lord in the air nothing is said of His coming down to the earth; it is our going up (as He went up) to be with Him. [See Note #8] Neither, as far as concerns us, does the apostle go farther than our gathering together to be for ever with Him. Nothing is said either of judgment or of manifestation; but only the fact of our heavenly association with Him in that we leave the earth precisely as He left it. This is very precious. There is this difference: He went up in His own full right, He ascended; as to us, His voice calls the dead, and they come forth from the grave, and, the living being changed, all are caught up together. It is a solemn act of God's power, which seals the Christians' life and the work of God, and brings the former into the glory of Christ as His heavenly companions. Glorious privilege! Precious grace! To lose sight of it destroys the proper character of our joy and of our hope.

Other consequences follow, which are the result of His manifestation; but that is our portion, our hope. We leave the earth as He did, we shall for ever be with Him.

I do not preach anything.

I agree with all the Bible scholars such as Dr. Billy Graham, and Dr. Sunday, and Dr. Green, and Dr. Magee, and Dr. Moody, and Dr. Henry, and Dr. Gill, and Dr. Ironside, and the list just goes on and on and on.

Those men taught the Jesus comes next in the AIR to remove His church at the Rapture in 1 Thess. and 1 Corth.

Then there will be 7 years of Tribulation.

Then Jesus comes WITH the host of heaven at Armageddon.

You reject that and I am sorry about that. There is really no need for you keep posting the same old thing as it means nothing to me. You are IMO wrong now just as much as you were 1 week ago about this.

If you think it helps you in some way......continue on.

 

[Riberra]

I do not preach anything.

I agree with all the Bible scholars such as Dr. Billy Graham, and Dr. Sunday, and Dr. Green, and Dr. Magee, and Dr. Moody, and Dr. Henry, and Dr. Gill, and Dr. Ironside, and the list just goes on and on and on.

Those men taught that there is TWO COMINGS OF JESUS YET TO COME.

But you refuse to agree with Jesus.Jesus tell us about His Coming in Matthew 24:29-31

All of them like you, are taking their learnings and interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 from John Nelson Darby the inventor of the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine,who is teached at the Dallas Seminary Institute since about 150 years.

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, by John Nelson Darby, [1857-62]

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby: 1 Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You like Darby preach that there is TWO Coming of Jesus yet to come.
------------------------------------------------------------------

There is ONLY ONE Coming of Jesus yet to come not 2...Jesus tell us when in Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/]

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Postvieww]

Thanks for the information as now we both can understand what Jesus, John, Daniel, Justin and now you and me can all agree......

Justin said as you posted.......
(Jesus) He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified;
(1st Advent)
but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory,
(Rapture)
when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall
(2 Thess. 2:1-4 agrees with this as I posted. #1, falling aways, #2, Rapture, #3, A/C revealed.)
(He, A/C) venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus,

This is exactly why we can never agree on what scripture actually says. You have chopped the words of Justin inserted your commentary and claimed victory. Allow me to enter my commentary backed by Daniel, John, Paul and Jesus.


O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced:


1. the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified;


One is Christs 1st coming which ended in His crucifixion.


2. but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus,


The other one which is #2 says it will happen when the man of apostasy will venture to do things to “US THE CHRISTIANS” who will be here when the man of sin is revealed to do those things Justin referred to and as outlined in Daniel 7:21-25 and Revelation 13:7. We will not be removed before the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 is clear Christ will not return and gather us until after the man of sin is revealed and Matthew 24:29-31 is clear Jesus will return and gather us immediately after the tribulation.


A fine example that any passage can be made to say what one wants it to say without regard to what it actually says. No disrespect intended to you, just strong disagreement with your method to arrive at your conclusion. Let the readers make up their minds which method is correct here.

 

[Major1]

This is exactly why we can never agree on what scripture actually says. You have chopped the words of Justin inserted your commentary and claimed victory. Allow me to enter my commentary backed by Daniel, John, Paul and Jesus.


O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced:


1. the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified;


One is Christs 1st coming which ended in His crucifixion.


2. but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus,


The other one which is #2 says it will happen when the man of apostasy will venture to do things to “US THE CHRISTIANS” who will be here when the man of sin is revealed to do those things Justin referred to and as outlined in Daniel 7:21-25 and Revelation 13:7. We will not be removed before the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 is clear Christ will not return and gather us until after the man of sin is revealed and Matthew 24:29-31 is clear Jesus will return and gather us immediately after the tribulation.


A fine example that any passage can be made to say what one wants it to say without regard to what it actually says. No disrespect intended to you, just strong disagreement with your method to arrive at your conclusion. Let the readers make up their minds which method is correct here.

My dear friend. Why would I need to post the words which did not apply. I copied the words and posted what was relevant to the discussion we were involved in.

What you posted and I reposted is what I actually believe so what is the problem?

Just as it says, Justin tells us that there is a 1st Advent in which Jesus was crucified and then another from which believers will be rescued from. That rescue IMO is the Rapture of the church and That is exactly what I believe the Bible teaches.

It is not clear at all what you said the purpose of 2 Thess. says.

It says that there will be a "falling away" First.
Then the removal or catching away or resurrection will take place.
Then the A/C will be revealed.

That is what it actually does say.

2 Thess. 2:1-3.........
"Now we beseech you, brethren,(#1) by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means#2) for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

(#3)and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Honestly, how can you not understand that. It is 1 + 2 = 3.
I think you may have over acted a little.

 

[Riberra]

You are incorrect now as you were 10 minutes ago brother. Repeating your claims over and over is not going to make them valid.

We meet Jesus in the AIR in 1 Thess. and that is confirmed in 1 Corth. No where in any Scriptures is a view of Jesus touching the ground UNTIL Zech. 14 which is a picture of Him at Armageddon.

The tribulation Period according to Daniel is 7 Years and it makes no logical sense for the church/believers to go through a 7 year period that is specifically designated for the Jews and to bring them to Christ.

Believers are already with Christ so what would be the point-to judge and persecute the believers BECAUSE THEY ACTULLY BELIEVED?????

If your belief is that being SAVED means Being Raptured to Heaven Before the tribulation ...then someone have teach you another Gospel.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 28)
The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[Major1]

But you refuse to agree with Jesus.

All of them like you, are taking their learnings and interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 from John Nelson Darby the inventor of the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine,who is teached at the Dallas Seminary Institute since about 150 years.

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible, by John Nelson Darby, [1857-62]

Synopsis of the Books of the Bible by John Nelson Darby: 1 Thessalonians: 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You like Darby preach that there is TWO Coming of Jesus yet to come.
------------------------------------------------------------------

There is ONLY ONE Coming of Jesus yet to come not 2...Jesus tell us when in Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/].



31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOPE!

All anyone has to do is read the Scriptures for themselves. They are self explanatory.

You use the name of Dr. Darby as if it was some kind of curse or as if he was a witch of some kind. Do you actually think that disparaging him will somehow validate your theology?

Is that what you call Christian thinking?

Do YOU even know anything about him at all????

Do you have the same feelings for Dr. Martin Luther?

What about Ironside and Scofield. Do you also reject them with the same passion as you do a great Christian man as Dr. Darby one reason.....you choose to not accept his teaching on dispensations?

Personally, I believe that the best thing you could do would be to attend the Dallas Theological Seminary or in fact any Christian Seminary would be wonderful for you. IMHO.

Liberty University has a wonderful on line system and it would help you a great deal.

 

[Riberra]

NOPE!

All anyone has to do is read the Scriptures for themselves. They are self explanatory.

You use the name of Dr. Darby as if it was some kind of curse or as if he was a witch of some kind. Do you actually think that disparaging him will somehow validate your theology?

Is that what you call Christian thinking?

Do YOU even know anything about him at all????

Do you have the same feelings for Dr. Martin Luther?

What about Ironside and Scofield. Do you also reject them with the same passion as you do a great Christian man as Dr. Darby one reason.....you choose to not accept his teaching on dispensations?

Personally, I believe that the best thing you could do would be to attend the Dallas Theological Seminary or in fact any Christian Seminary would be wonderful for you. IMHO.

Liberty University has a wonderful on line system and it would help you a great deal.

I will tell you to read what Irenaus wrote about 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
He describe the Church going throught the Tribulation...
The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.
Here
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[Major1]

If your belief is that being SAVED means Being Raptured to Heaven Before the tribulation ...then someone have teach you another Gospel.

YOU never answer a question do you?

YOU try to twist around and focus on something else instead of speaking to the question.

I said.........
Why would believers have to go through tribulation which was determined by God to bring the Jews to salvation. Why would believers have to go through something which God said was to be focused on unbelieving Jews when they are already saved.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. From that you got...................
"If your belief is that being SAVED means Being Raptured to Heaven Before the tribulation ...then someone have teach you another Gospel."

God help you brother. Please try an on line Christian Seminary class or two.

 

[Major1]

I will tell you to read what Irenaus wrote about 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.
Here
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)

Read a long time ago brother. Actually about 30 years ago.

Well I am done. Foot ball game is on and it is more important than repeating my self over and over to you.

Do you have something else you would like to discuss as it is obviouse you are not going to change my understanding.

 

[Riberra]

Read a long time ago brother. Actually about 30 years ago.
---
I said.........
Why would believers have to go through tribulation which was determined by God to bring the Jews to salvation. Why would believers have to go through something which God said was to be focused on unbelieving Jews when they are already saved.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

He say that the Church will go through the tribulation....

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)
4-
...the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: "I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God."

 

[Postvieww]

My dear friend. Why would I need to post the words which did not apply. I copied the words and posted what was relevant to the discussion we were involved in.

What you posted and I reposted is what I actually believe so what is the problem?

Just as it says, Justin tells us that there is a 1st Advent in which Jesus was crucified and then another from which believers will be rescued from. That rescue IMO is the Rapture of the church and That is exactly what I believe the Bible teaches.

It is not clear at all what you said the purpose of 2 Thess. says.

It says that there will be a "falling away" First.
Then the removal or catching away or resurrection will take place.
Then the A/C will be revealed.

That is what it actually does say.

2 Thess. 2:1-3.........
"Now we beseech you, brethren,(#1) by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means#2) for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,

(#3)and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Honestly, how can you not understand that. It is 1 + 2 = 3.
I think you may have over acted a little.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The topic of this passage.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Same day as verse 1.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That day, is the same day as verse 1 &2, the coming of Christ and our gathering will not take place until after the falling away (apostasy not a rapture of the church) then the man of sin revealed who will war against the saints. It is after this, Christ will come and we will be gathered.

I'm really not acting.

 

[Riberra]

YOU never answer a question do you?

YOU try to twist around and focus on something else instead of speaking to the question.

I said.........
Why would believers have to go through tribulation which was determined by God to bring the Jews to salvation. Why would believers have to go through something which God said was to be focused on unbelieving Jews when they are already saved.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. From that you got...................
"If your belief is that being SAVED means Being Raptured to Heaven Before the tribulation ...then someone have teach you another Gospel."

Do you agree that we are SAVED if we REMAIN FAITHFUL UNTIL our DEATH ?
If someone APOSTASY before his DEATH that person will not be saved and will end in the lake of fire .

The tribulation will serve that goal....

-Irenaeus explain that better than me...-

The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.
Here:
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)

 

[keras]

When you read the words.........
"stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, domed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.">>>>>>>

Where in the name of the Lord do you think that PLACE being described is at??????
O wait........you just said that it is a scene in Jerusalem. WOW!!!!

Yes it is in Jerusalem, on earth.
What you fail to understand is that Heaven is a spiritual place, in another dimension and for us is anywhere and everywhere. Ezekiel saw it when he was by the river Kebar and Stephen saw it in Jerusalem.
Unless Revelation 7 changes the location, then in a normal reading of that chapter, the place it all happens is on earth.

 

[keras]

You have chosen to reject that and all I can say is I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you.

Thanks, but it is you that needs prayer, as the Lord takes action to correct Hs creation and you remain here to experience it all.

 

[Major1]

Thanks, but it is you that needs prayer, as the Lord takes action to correct Hs creation and you remain here to experience it all.

You are very right. I need as much prayer as I can get. I already told you I would pray for you so I t is only proper that you should do the same for me. THANKS!

 

[Major1]

Yes it is in Jerusalem, on earth.
What you fail to understand is that Heaven is a spiritual place, in another dimension and for us is anywhere and everywhere. Ezekiel saw it when he was by the river Kebar and Stephen saw it in Jerusalem.
Unless Revelation 7 changes the location, then in a normal reading of that chapter, the place it all happens is on earth.

And just what verse would you use to support that comment.

What you are failing to do is read the LITERAL words of the Scripture.

The Father on the throne does not in way, anywhere say that the location is Jerusalem?

 

[Major1]

Do you agree that we are SAVED if we REMAIN FAITHFUL UNTIL our DEATH ?
If someone APOSTASY before his DEATH that person will not be saved and will end in the lake of fire .

The tribulation will serve that goal....

-Irenaeus explain that better than me...-

The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.
Here:
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)

Are you asking me if I believe in Once Saved Alwasys Saved?

If so, YES I do!

The key there is ONCE SAVED.

 

[Riberra]

Are you asking me if I believe in Once Saved Alwasys Saved?

If so, YES I do!

The key there is ONCE SAVED.

Oh!,warning readers ... another unbiblical concept.
What Does the Bible Say About ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’?

A person who has gained salvation by faith in Jesus Christ can lose that faith and the salvation that comes with it. The Bible says that maintaining faith requires great effort, a “hard fight.” Early Christians who had already accepted Christ were told: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”—Philippians 2:12.
Bible verses that disprove the teaching of ‘once saved, always saved’

The Bible warns against serious sins that will keep a person from entering God’s Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21) If salvation could not be lost, such warnings would be meaningless. Instead, the Bible shows that someone who has been saved can fall away by returning to a practice of serious sin. For example, Hebrews 10:26 states: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”—Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 2:20-22.

Jesus emphasized the importance of maintaining faith by giving an illustration in which he likened himself to a vine and his followers to branches on that vine. Some of them would at one time demonstrate faith in him by their fruits, or actions, yet would later fail to do so and be “thrown out like a [fruitless] branch,” losing their salvation. (John 15:1-6) The apostle Paul used a similar illustration, saying that Christians who do not maintain their faith “will be lopped off.”—Romans 11:17-22.

Christians are commanded to “keep on the watch.” (Matthew 24:42; 25:13) Those who fall asleep spiritually, whether by practicing “works belonging to darkness” or by not fully performing the works that Jesus commanded, lose their salvation.—Romans 13:11-13; Revelation 3:1-3.

Many scriptures show that those who have been saved must still endure faithfully to the end. (Matthew 24:13; Hebrews 10:36; 12:2, 3; Revelation 2:10) First-century Christians expressed joy when they learned that fellow believers were enduring in their faith. (1 Thessalonians 1:2, 3; 3 John 3, 4) Does it seem reasonable that the Bible would stress faithful endurance if those who did not endure would be saved anyway?

Only when his death was imminent did the apostle Paul feel that his salvation was assured. (2 Timothy 4:6-8) Earlier in his life, he recognized that he could still miss out on salvation if he gave in to fleshly desires. He wrote: “I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”—1 Corinthians 9:27; Philippians 3:12-14.