Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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Riberra

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It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
Read Iranaeus carefully, there is nothing said about it happenening SOON or At Any Moment ...but -in the END- when the Beast will be in Power, a time that will be similar to the time when the ANGELS who have committed apostasia in the time of Noah have caused the corruption of the human race and wikedness that God destroyed with the flood. .....
That in the End Time God will use fire....
-For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.The whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth]-

Link:
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
 
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Major1

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Read Iranaeus carefully, there is nothing said about it happenening SOON or At Any Moment ...but -in the END- when the Beast will be in Power, a time that will be similar to the time when the ANGELS who have committed apostasia in the time of Noah have caused the corruption of the human race and wikedness that God destroyed with the flood. .....
That in the End Time God will use fire....
-For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.The whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth]-

Link:
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus)

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].

That does not explain the Rapture. I agree with the expliantion of the END.
The context means "end" of the age.

The point which you even posted but still to not agree is..........
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said,".
..........
THEN...........
"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

That is exactly what Scriptures say and the same thing I have said all along on this thread.
 
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Riberra

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That does not explain the Rapture. I agree with the expliantion of the END.
The context means "end" of the age.

The point which you even posted but still to not agree is..........
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said,".
..........
THEN...........
"There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

That is exactly what Scriptures say and the same thing I have said all along on this thread.
The END will happen when Jesus will come to destroy the wicked.

Iraneus said that we will be spared
the destruction by fire unto the Coming of Jesus because at that moment we will be crowned with incorruption.That this is the reward of the RIGHTEOUS when they OVERCOME.

For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

And therefore, when IN THE END the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this,
------------------------------------------------------
The END will not come 7 years before contrary to what you have been taught.
------------------------------------------------------
 
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Postvieww

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Absolutely my brother. The 1sr one that comes to my mind is the Apostle Paul 2000 years ago.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17........
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. "

The writer of Hebrews agreed in chapter 9:28.........
"so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

James agreed with both of those men in 5:7..........
"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain."

Peter agreed as well in 3:14....
"but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy."

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France.

Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage.

In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”


Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis.

In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:
"do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Is that enough for you or do I need to add more. The Rapture was NOT invented in 1830 by Charles Darby as the facts clearly establish. But you know....YOU could have looked all those up on the same internet that I used.

Now, IF.....IF it was a new teaching which was developed in 1830, WHY is that a problem?
WHY is the idea of it being NEW used to discredit it?

Didn't God speak these same words to Daniel in 12:4...........
“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase".

Then also in 12:9-10..........
"And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand."

Has not God spoken to men in different ways over many years ????

I do not understand the reasoning behind rejecting a Bible doctrine if God did not choose to reveal it 2000 years ago but instead 200 years ago.

Wasn't saved by GRACE through FAITH developed by Martin Luther in 1519 which began the Protestant church???? Should that be rejected because in 1525 it was a NEW doctrine.

What about the CHURCH? It was not in existence until God revealed it to Paul? Do we accept it as valid today because it is OLD or because God said so to Paul? Wouldn't the same process apply to Luther???

Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France.

Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

This passage you quote says the tribulation will be the last contest of the righteous.


I just happen to have Irenaeus’s Against Heresies in my library.


Against Heresies 5.35, he wrote:

For all these words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the wicked one.

It appears to me Irenaeus agrees with Paul that the resurrection will be after the revealing of antichrist 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.


I believe we can strike one off of your list.
 
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Dialogue Of Justin Philosopher And Martyr With Trypho by Justin Martyr

Chapter CX.--A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent. - Sermon Index

Chapter CX.--A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent.

And when I had finished these words, I continued: |Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. And then, they say, the events mentioned in this passage shall happen, just as if there was no fruit as yet from the words of the prophecy. O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, -- our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, -- and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; and sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife. For you are aware that the prophetic word says, And his wife shall be like a fruitful vine.' Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus. For just as if one should cut away the fruit-bearing parts of a vine, it grows up again, and yields other branches flourishing and fruitful; even so the same thing happens with us. For the vine planted by God and Christ the Saviour is His people. But the rest of the prophecy shall be fulfilled at His second coming. For the expression, He that is afflicted [and driven out],' i.e., from the world, [implies] that, so far as you and all other men have it in your power, each Christian has been driven out not only from his own property, but even from the whole world; for you permit no Christian to live. But you say that the same fate has befallen your own nation. Now, if you have been cast out after defeat in battle, you have suffered such treatment justly indeed, as all the Scriptures bear witness; but we, though we have done no such [evil acts] after we knew the truth of God, are testified to by God, that, together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth. For Isaiah cries, Behold how the righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and righteous men are taken away, and no man considers it.'

This also agrees with Paul, John, Jesus and Daniel.
 
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Major1

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Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France.

Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

This passage you quote says the tribulation will be the last contest of the righteous.


I just happen to have Irenaeus’s Against Heresies in my library.


Against Heresies 5.35, he wrote:

For all these words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the wicked one.

It appears to me Irenaeus agrees with Paul that the resurrection will be after the revealing of antichrist 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.


I believe we can strike one off of your list.

No sir. That is not the case at all.

Against Herieses 5:29.........
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said".

2 Thess. 2:1-3 says to ME very clearly that first will be a "falling away, 2nd will then be the Rapture and then the A/C will be revealed.

That is what Paul actually said and also what Irenaeus actually said.

The ones whom the Lord will find in the flesh are obviously the ones who were saved DUREING the Tribulation and lived through it.

Rev. 7:9-10 .......
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, domed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

The second half of chapter 7 of Revelation demonstrates that not only will many be saved in Israel but also many Gentiles will come to Christ in the great tribulation. In his vision John sees a great multitude beyond human computation coming from all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues standing before the throne, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands, ascribing salvation to God and to the Lamb.

In contrast to those coming from the twelve tribes as pictured earlier in the chapter, this throng comes from all nations. The white robes mentioned seem to refer to 6:11, and the palms indicate their triumph. This great multitude is heard by John in a great symphony of praise as they ascribe salvation to God. The fact that they are martyrs is stated later in the chapter (vv. 13-14).
 
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Major1

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The END will happen when Jesus will come to destroy the wicked.

Iraneus said that we will be spared
the destruction by fire unto the Coming of Jesus because at that moment we will be crowned with incorruption.That this is the reward of the RIGHTEOUS when they OVERCOME.

For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

And therefore, when IN THE END the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this,
------------------------------------------------------
The END will not come 7 years before contrary to what you have been taught.
------------------------------------------------------

God bless you my friend.
 
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Riberra

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No sir. That is not the case at all.

Against Herieses 5:29.........
"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said".

2 Thess. 2:1-3 says to ME very clearly that first will be a "falling away, 2nd will then be the Rapture and then the A/C will be revealed.

That is what Paul actually said and also what Irenaeus actually said.

The ones whom the Lord will find in the flesh are obviously the ones who were saved DURING the Tribulation and lived through it.
Iranaeus tell us in Book V, Chapter 28 that the time of the apostasy will happen during the time that the ANTICHRIST will be on the Earth.
Iraneus goes as far than saying that TRIBULATION is NECESSARY FOR THOSE WHO ARE SAVED [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.....
Never Iranaeus talk about 2 different groups of believers with 2 different destiny as your guru Darby have done.
see
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.28 (St. Irenaeus)
The distinction to be made between the righteous and the wicked. The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world.


4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: "I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God."
 
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keras

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Rev. 7:9-10 .......
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, domed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."
This is describing the scene in Jerusalem, all Christians gathered there, soon after the Sixth Seal disaster clears all the holy Land.
Heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7, it is entirely on earth as verses 1-3 make clear. Verses 15-17 pertain to the Millennium.
 
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Major1

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This is describing the scene in Jerusalem, all Christians gathered there, soon after the Sixth Seal disaster clears all the holy Land.
Heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7, it is entirely on earth as verses 1-3 make clear. Verses 15-17 pertain to the Millennium.

When you read the words.........
"stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, domed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.">>>>>>>

Where in the name of the Lord do you think that PLACE being described is at??????

O wait........you just said that it is a scene in Jerusalem. WOW!!!!

Now you do understand that what you are proposing is one of the tennets of the Herbert Armstrong's Church of God cult heresies, don't you"

How can you not see that this is a heavenly scene is unbelievable to me until I realized how far into the cult of the Church of Armstrong you are!!!
 
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Major1

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Dialogue Of Justin Philosopher And Martyr With Trypho by Justin Martyr

Chapter CX.--A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent. - Sermon Index

Chapter CX.--A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent.

And when I had finished these words, I continued: |Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is. And then, they say, the events mentioned in this passage shall happen, just as if there was no fruit as yet from the words of the prophecy. O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, -- our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, -- and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; and sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife. For you are aware that the prophetic word says, And his wife shall be like a fruitful vine.' Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus. For just as if one should cut away the fruit-bearing parts of a vine, it grows up again, and yields other branches flourishing and fruitful; even so the same thing happens with us. For the vine planted by God and Christ the Saviour is His people. But the rest of the prophecy shall be fulfilled at His second coming. For the expression, He that is afflicted [and driven out],' i.e., from the world, [implies] that, so far as you and all other men have it in your power, each Christian has been driven out not only from his own property, but even from the whole world; for you permit no Christian to live. But you say that the same fate has befallen your own nation. Now, if you have been cast out after defeat in battle, you have suffered such treatment justly indeed, as all the Scriptures bear witness; but we, though we have done no such [evil acts] after we knew the truth of God, are testified to by God, that, together with the most righteous, and only spotless and sinless Christ, we are taken away out of the earth. For Isaiah cries, Behold how the righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart; and righteous men are taken away, and no man considers it.'

This also agrees with Paul, John, Jesus and Daniel.

Thanks for the information as now we both can understand what Jesus, John, Daniel, Justin and now you and me can all agree......

Justin said as you posted.......
(Jesus) He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified;
(
1st Advent)

but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory,
(Rapture)
when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall
(2 Thess. 2:1-4 agrees with this as I posted. #1, falling aways, #2, Rapture, #3, A/C revealed.)
(He, A/C) venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus,
 
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Major1

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The context is that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS not before the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

NOPE! The context is about the next appearance of Jesus which will be in the AIr at the Rapture.
 
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Riberra

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Thanks for the information as now we both can understand what Jesus, John, Daniel, Justin and now you and me can all agree......

Justin said as you posted.......
(Jesus) He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified;
(
1st Advent)

but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory,
Jesus coming in glory in the clouds.
Matthew 24:29-31
 
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Major1

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1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 refers to the RESURRECTION of the dead believers and the changing of the believers alive and remain who will happen at the Last Trump [not the 7th trumpet of Revelation but the Trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31 unto the Coming of Jesus in Glory Matthew 24:29-31.

The pre-tribbers have changed the verses about the resurrection [of the believers] who will happen Unto the coming of Jesus in Glory into a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation...

Even the blessed hope which is the resurrection of the believers to eternal life , who will happen unto the Glorious appearing of Jesus [Titus 2:13] have been changed by the pre-tribbers into the hope of a trip to Heaven before the tribulation while the Bible in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 tell us that our blessed hope is the RESURRECTION.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Nope!

The Scriptures in 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. tell us about the Resurrection of the saints in Christ at the 2nd phase of the 1st Resurrection and the Bible is very clear. We meet Him in the AIR and Jesus never touches the ground.

When We read Zecheriah 14 and Rev. 19, we see Jesus on the Earth doing battle.
 
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Riberra

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Nope!

The Scriptures in 1 Corth. and 1 Thess. tell us about the Resurrection of the saints in Christ at the 2nd phase of the 1st Resurrection and the Bible is very clear. We meet Him in the AIR and Jesus never touches the ground.

When We read Zecheriah 14 and Rev. 19, we see Jesus on the Earth doing battle.
-We will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air.
-Jesus will come out of the clouds with us on white horses to defeat the armies assembled at Armageddon.
-After that Jesus will set His feet on the Mount of Olives.
 
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Major1

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Jesus coming in glory in the clouds.
Matthew 24:29-31

YES He certainly is! That is what I have been trying to tell you.

Matt. 24:29-31 could not be any clearer.............
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days(7 Years after the Rapture) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Rev. 19:11-20)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(Armageddon)."

You seemed to not understand that the 7th VIAL judgment is Armageddon, The 7th Trumpet judgment is actually the 3rd "woe" and both are included in the 7th VIAL Judgment.

Rev. 16:17.......
" And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.".
 
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Riberra

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YES He certainly is! That is what I have been trying to tell you.

Matt. 24:29-31 could not be any clearer.............
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days(7 Years after the Rapture) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Rev. 19:11-20)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(Armageddon)."

You seemed to not understand that the 7th VIAL judgment is Armageddon, The 7th Trumpet judgment is actually the 3rd "woe" and both are included in the 7th VIAL Judgment.

Rev. 16:17.......
" And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.".
The rapture [CAUGHT UP] to meet Jesus in the Clouds in the AIR is TIED with His Coming in Glory in the Clouds mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 that will happen AFTER the Tribulation .

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Major1

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-We will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air.
-Jesus will come out of the clouds with us on white horses to defeat the armies assembled at Armageddon.
-After that Jesus will set His feet on the Mount of Olives.

Absolutely correct my brother..............Almost!

We meet Jesus in the Air in 1 Thess. which is confirmed in 1 Corth.

Thereabouts, (Time unknown) there will be a 7 year peace treaty between the A/C and Israel.

Then 7 years of Tribulation and rule by the A/C.

Jesus comes to the earth 7 years later WITH the host of heaven at Armageddon.

Revelation 19:14........
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

There it is. Do not take my word for it but it is right there for all to see.......
ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES!!!!

Of course you will counter and argue that the word "ARMIES" does not say CHURCH so it has to mean only the angels or even only the Old Test. saints.

But it does not say that either does it brother. It says ARMIES which is llpural and those armies WERE ALREADY IN HEAVEN.

ARMIES IMO opinion means the believers of all the ages along with the angels and the Raptured Church.

Revelation 19:14 Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

Armies
is στρατεύματα [strateumata] :
1). “troops,”
2). “armed force.”
3). The army is composed of “saints” which denotes those who are set apart and dedicated to God. This term includes both angels (e.g., Dan. Dan. 8:13) and men (e.g., Ps. Ps. 16:3; Ps. 34:9; Acts Acts 9:13). Joel indicates that God’s “mighty ones” will be among them—almost certainly a reference to angels (Joel Joel 3:11).
 
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Riberra

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Absolutely correct my brother..............Almost!

We meet Jesus in the Air in 1 Thess. which is confirmed in 1 Corth.
We meet Jesus in the CLOUDS in THE Air in 1 Thess refers to the COMING OF JESUS IN THE CLOUDS mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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The rapture to meet Jesus in the Clouds in the air is TIED with His Coming in Glory in the Clouds mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 that will happen AFTER the Tribulation .

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOPE. TWO separate event separated by 7 years!

1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says.........
“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 3:10 .........

"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. "

Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

You have chosen to reject that and all I can say is I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you.
 
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