Non-Violence as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

brinny

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I realize that. But it can be implied that is what you meant. The deciding factor here is the Word of God. So please find a verse or passage that suggests that physical violence in self defense is supported by the New Testament.



Sorry about that.
The forum I was on before had the letters color coded to make it easier to identify who was male and female. Granted, I have been on here a while but it is still easy to make that mistake.


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None come to mind on the spur of the moment.

Is defending oneself against a violent attacker a sin? (of course this would mean that in order to stop the violent attacker, in order to defend oneself or others, violence would be required.)

Is it a sin?

To take it further:

Is "violence" a sin?

Is "anger"?
 
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None come to mind on the spur of the moment.

Truth is determined by God's Word and not by what we think. Surely you should be aware of at least one or two verses if you have a belief on this particular topic.

Brinny said:
Is defending oneself against a violent attacker a sin? (of course this would mean that in order to stop the violent attacker, in order to defend oneself or others, violence would be required.)

Not really. Ever heard of Aikido?
Granted, I am not saying that is the Christian solution or that one should study such a thing. The point is that there are non-violent ways to stop somebody. However, I believe the Christian way to stop a person is to use prayer and or rebuking somebody in Jesus's name, and or praising the LORD, etc.

Brinny said:
Is it a sin?

How did Jesus react when Peter acted violently to defend Him?
Did Jesus seem happy with Peter or upset?
(See Matthew 26:51-53).

If Jesus commands you to turn the other cheek when you are smitten (Matthew 5:39) and you do not do so, are you obeying Jesus or disobeying Him?

Is not breaking the Commands of God defined as sin? (See 1 John 3:4).

Brinny said:
To take it further:

Is "violence" a sin?

For the New Testament saint living out his faith.... yes.
But I do not believe it is a sin unto death, though.
Sins unto death are any sins that lead to the Second Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) if they are not repented of in this life (See Revelation 21:8). For John says there is a sin unto death and there is a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). An example of a sin that is not unto death would be not being baptized in this life (See 1 Peter 3:21).

As for the New Testament saint returning with Christ at His 2nd Coming when the saint is disembodied and has the body or essence of angels: Well, this could potentially be a... no. The Scriptures imply that the saints will gain victory in some way after Christ destroys those sinful nations that comes up against Him (But the language is not exactly clear because it is metaphorical).

But if the saints do employ violence at Christ's 2nd Coming in some way, we have to realize that they are no longer living out their faith upon the Earth anymore (And have proven themselves to the LORD already).

Brinny said:
Is "anger"?

Depends on the context.

Anger towards sin and unrighteousness is good and okay (As long as one is not consumed or controlled by it; Meaning, is it a truly righteous anger or a worldly anger?).

But to be clear: Anger towards sinful people is not what the LORD commanded of us. Jesus said we are to love, pray, and do good towards our enemies.


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brinny

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Truth is determined by God's Word and not by what we think. Surely you should be aware of at least one or two verses if you have a belief on this particular topic.



Not really. Ever heard of Aikido?
Granted, I am not saying that is the Christian solution or that one should study such a thing. The point is that there are non-violent ways to stop somebody. However, I believe the Christian way to stop a person is to use prayer and or rebuking somebody in Jesus's name, and or praising the LORD, etc.



How did Jesus react when Peter acted violently to defend Him?
Did Jesus seem happy with Peter or upset?
(See Matthew 26:51-53).

If Jesus commands you to turn the other cheek when you are smitten (Matthew 5:39) and you do not do so, are you obeying Jesus or disobeying Him?

Is not breaking the Commands of God defined as sin? (See 1 John 3:4).



For the New Testament saint living out his faith.... yes.
But I do not believe it is a sin unto death, though.
Sins unto death are any sins that lead to the Second Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) if they are not repented of in this life (See Revelation 21:8). For John says there is a sin unto death and there is a sin not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). An example of a sin that is not unto death would be not being baptized in this life (See 1 Peter 3:21).

As for the New Testament saint returning with Christ at His 2nd Coming when the saint is disembodied and has the body or essence of angels: Well, this could potentially be a... no. The Scriptures imply that the saints will gain victory in some way after Christ destroys those sinful nations that comes up against Him (But the language is not exactly clear because it is metaphorical).

But if the saints do employ violence at Christ's 2nd Coming in some way, we have to realize that they are no longer living out their faith upon the Earth anymore (And have proven themselves to the LORD already).



Depends on the context.

Anger towards sin and unrighteousness is good and okay (As long as one is not consumed or controlled by it; Meaning, is it a truly righteous anger or a worldly anger?).

But to be clear: Anger towards sinful people is not what the LORD commanded of us. Jesus said we are to love, pray, and do good towards our enemies.


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Is the crushing of Satan's head violent?

Is it a sin?

On another note, was Jesus ever violent?

In addition, is it a sin to allow someone to be victimized or killed by a violent attacker?
 
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Is the crushing of Satan's head violent?

So you believe Romans 16:20 is talking about how you will literally crush the actual literal head of Satan under your feet?

Brinny said:
Is it a sin?

Spiritual warfare is not the same as physical warfare.

Brinny said:
On another note, was Jesus ever violent?

If you mean did Jesus act in a violent way so as to cause bodily harm: Then the answer is... no.

Brinny said:
In addition, is it a sin to allow someone to be victimized or killed by a violent attacker?

Only if you use violent lethal force back. As I said, there are non violent ways to defend oneself. The higher calling is to do what Jesus said.


...
 
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4x4toy

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So you believe Romans 16:20 is talking about how you will literally crush the actual literal head of Satan under your feet?



Spiritual warfare is not the same as physical warfare.



If you mean did Jesus act in a violent way so as to cause bodily harm: Then the answer is... no.



Only if you use violent lethal force back. As I said, there are non violent ways to defend oneself. The higher calling is to do what Jesus said.


...


Do you believe in beating your children ?
 
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4x4toy

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"Sarah saw that Abraham's son by Hagar the Egyptian was laughing at Isaac." (Genesis 21:9 GWT).


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I'm still laughing at Hagar and Ishmael , Abraham shoulda took a stick and beat Ishmael down instead of listening to Sarah .. Brats are funny to watch ..
 
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brinny

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So you believe Romans 16:20 is talking about how you will literally crush the actual literal head of Satan under your feet?



Spiritual warfare is not the same as physical warfare.



If you mean did Jesus act in a violent way so as to cause bodily harm: Then the answer is... no.



Only if you use violent lethal force back. As I said, there are non violent ways to defend oneself. The higher calling is to do what Jesus said.


...

Re: post #143....

It is JESUS the Christ Who "crushes" Satan's head.
 
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Re: post #143....

It is JESUS the Christ Who "crushes" Satan's head.

There is a huge difference between what God does and what man does. God can do things man cannot do. God can create things out of thin air. Man cannot. God can receive worship. Man cannot. God is the One who ultimately decides who dies or lives. Man cannot make that decision ultimately. When the Scriptures say we are to imitate Jesus, it is saying so in respect to the life that He lived here upon this Earth in regards to righteousness. Every knee will bow down to Jesus at some point around the Judgment. But that does not mean that every one will do so for you or other believers. In other words, not all things are the same for man as they are for God. In fact, it is written...

"Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19).

Oh, but wait. You want to have vengeance, too.
So let's just toss out that pesky Bible verse above and or ignore it and strike back in vengeance when somebody hits you. It's the right thing to do, right?
Let's not turn the other cheek when we are struck upon the cheek as Jesus said.
Let's block their punch and punch them back even worse!
Does that even remotely sound like the ministry of Jesus to you?
If so, then we are reading two completely different Bibles.


...
 
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I'm still laughing at Hagar and Ishmael , Abraham shoulda took a stick and beat Ishmael down instead of listening to Sarah .. Brats are funny to watch ..




...
 
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brinny

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There is a huge difference between what God does and what man does. God can do things man cannot do. God can create things out of thin air. Man cannot. God can receive worship. Man cannot. God is the One who ultimately decides who dies or lives. Man cannot make that decision ultimately. When the Scriptures say we are to imitate Jesus, it is saying so in respect to the life that He lived here upon this Earth in regards to righteousness. Every knee will bow down to Jesus at some point around the Judgment. But that does not mean that every one will do so for you or other believers. In other words, not all things are the same for man as they are for God. In fact, it is written...

"Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19).

Oh, but wait. You want to have vengeance, too.
So let's just toss out that pesky Bible verse above and or ignore it and strike back in vengeance when somebody hits you. It's the right thing to do, right?
Let's not turn the other cheek when we are struck upon the cheek as Jesus said.
Let's block their punch and punch them back even worse!
Does that even remotely sound like the ministry of Jesus to you?
If so, then we are reading two completely different Bibles.


...

You asked if Jesus was/is ever "violent" as in doing "violence" to another.

Is "crushing" Satan's head violent?

On another note, Jesus came to earth to defeat and crush Satan.

Literally.
 
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You asked if Jesus was/is ever "violent" as in doing "violence" to another.

Is "crushing" Satan's head violent?

On another note, Jesus came to earth to defeat and crush Satan.

Literally.

I already explained it to you. If you don't get it, I can't help that. Repeating what you said does not undo the truth in the Scriptures or what I have said concerning them in my recent post you had quoted.


...
 
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brinny

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I already explained it to you. If you don't get it, I can't help that. Repeating what you said does not undo the truth in the Scriptures or what I have said concerning them in my recent post you had quoted.


...

The question is:

Was/is Jesus ever "violent"?

Secondarily:

Is violence a sin?

This is worth a study into the intricacies of a holy and just God Who allowed the violent death of His only begotten Son to obliterate what He hates.

And that is sin.

And the curse of sin, and that is death.
 
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The question is:

Was/is Jesus ever "violent"?

Secondarily:

Is violence a sin?

This is worth a study into the intricacies of a holy and just God Who allowed the violent death of His only begotten Son to obliterate what He hates.

And that is sin.

And the curse of sin, and that is death.

No. The question is: Was Jesus ever violent during His Earthly ministry?

The answer would be no.

Another question we have to ask is: Did Jesus teach lethal force as a part of self defense to His disciples?

Again, the answer would be no.

While we are on the topic of questions:

Can God steal?
No. Technically, He owns everything.
Can man steal? Yes, of course.
In other words, what God does and man does are two different things.
We are told to imitate Christ.
This was in context to HIS EARTHLY LIFE.
Nowhere do the Scriptures say we can imitate Christ in things that are exclusive to Him being LORD. We cannot be worshipped like Jesus and nor can we hold together all things by the word of the Lord's power. Also, what Christ does to angels in the future at the Judgment is not in any way related to how we are to behave around men. God does not treat angels the same way He does with man. Also, there is no verse or command from Christ saying we can crush people's heads under our feet just because Jesus may potentially do so with Satan in the future. On the contrary, Jesus tells us to pray, do good, and to love our enemies (which is obviously in context towards men and not angels).


...
 
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brinny

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No. The question is: Was Jesus ever violent during His Earthly ministry?

The answer would be no.

Another question we have to ask is: Did Jesus teach lethal force as a part of self defense to His disciples?

Again, the answer would be no.

While we are on the topic of questions:

Can God steal?
No. Technically, He owns everything.
Can man steal? Yes, of course.
In other words, what God does and man does are two different things.
We are told to imitate Christ.
This was in context to HIS EARTHLY LIFE.
Nowhere do the Scriptures say we can imitate Christ in things that are exclusive to Him being LORD. We cannot be worshipped like Jesus and nor can we hold together all things by the word of the Lord's power. Also, what Christ does to angels in the future at the Judgment is not in any way related to how we are to behave around men. God does not treat angels the same way He does with man. Also, there is no verse or command from Christ saying we can crush people's heads under our feet just because Jesus may potentially do so with Satan in the future. On the contrary, Jesus tells us to pray, do good, and to love our enemies (which is obviously in context towards men and not angels).


...

God is HOLY. He hates sin and lies and deception and the shedding of innocent blood. It is written what He hates. He sent His only begotten Son HERE on earth on a mission. The mission was to DESTROY sin and the father of lies, Satan himself. Those who align with Satan will also be destroyed.

HE is the "Crush-er" of Satan's head.

Not "us".

There is a Holy Wrath that God will un-leash at the judgement. Jesus demonstrated this Holy Wrath when He overturned tables and took a whip and "drove" the money changers out of His Father's House.

It was violent.

If any would've been foolish enough to stay within reach of that whip or near or at those tables He was overturning, would've faced the consequences of it.

There is a "Holy Violence".

This "Holy Violence" is without sin.

It is called "judgement".

That is why God sent His only begotten Son here, to earth, so that those who believe in Him will escape God's wrath, His "Holy Violence", His wrath.

And that is because it IS a "fearful" thing to fall into the hands of the living God without Jesus' righteousness via His blood, "covering" us.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

 
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God is HOLY. He hates sin and lies and deception and the shedding of innocent blood. It is written what He hates. He sent His only begotten Son HERE on earth on a mission. The mission was to DESTROY sin and the father of lies, Satan himself. Those who align with Satan will also be destroyed.

I am not in disagreement with that.

Brinny said:
HE is the "Crush-er" of Satan's head.

Not "us".

Yes, but before you implied that this was an example of how we can act violently in self defense. I do not see how God treats angels as being the same as how He treats man and how that relates to how He wants us to behave.

Brinny said:
There is a Holy Wrath that God will un-leash at the judgement.

Again, I am not in disagreement with this. What GOD does and what GOD requires of man to do are two different things.

Brinny said:
Jesus demonstrated this Holy Wrath when He overturned tables and took a whip and "drove" the money changers out of His Father's House. It was violent.

There is a huge difference between being angry and overturning tables vs. (versus) acting with intent to potentially harm people. Overturning tables in anger does not suggest that anybody's life was threatened in any way. Now, if Jesus shot flaming arrows into the crowd of the money changers to scare them, then that would be considered as a potential lethal violent attack because people can be killed by flaming arrows and flaming arrows is a known weapon during war time.

So there is a huge difference between violence that is non life threatening and violence that is used with the intent to harm others. Jesus never shown any type of violence whereby He intended to harm others physically. Yes, Jesus will destroy those enemy nations that come up against Him, but that is not what the LORD told us to imitate according to His Word. Nowhere will you find a Command saying that we are to attack all nations because they are pagan. Somebody has to invent that Command and place it into the Bible in order for it to be true. There is also no Command in the New Testament that you can use lethal force in return when somebody attacks you, either.

Brinny said:
If any would've been foolish enough to stay within reach of that whip or near or at those tables He was overturning, would've faced the consequences of it.

Right. Because whips and over-turning tables are such effective methods of taking lives and or destroying major body parts. ;)

Also, the whip was not with pieces of bone, and metal in it. It was not a whip used to torture people. There is no mention of how the whip would rip open flesh. I am sure that if it was, then Jesus's accusers could say they threatened their lives with a deadly weapon that could have hurt them at His trial. Remember, they were trying to pin something on Jesus and they couldn't do it.

Brinny said:
There is a "Holy Violence".

This "Holy Violence" is without sin.

It is called "judgement".

Again, I am not in disagreement with this. But what God does and what God requires of man to do (Depending on the Covenant) are two different things. Yes, God's people at one time were commanded to attack enemy nations. But this was for the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant with new rules or commands (that is catered to that covenant).

Brinny said:
That is why God sent His only begotten Son here, to earth, so that those who believe in Him will escape God's wrath, His "Holy Violence", His wrath.

Again, not in disagreement with this.

Brinny said:
And that is because it IS a "fearful" thing to fall into the hands of the living God without Jesus' righteousness via His blood, "covering" us.

Well, in order to have the blood cover you, you have to walk in the light as He is in the light. That is if you believe 1 John 1:7. Most self proclaiming Christians today don't believe that verse.

Brinny said:
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

And again, I am not in disagreement with this.
Wicked man and angels will be judged and destroyed and it will be more scarier or fearful for them than they realize when they are faced with God in the End.



....
 
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Please back your statement up with scripture.

Exodus 22:2-3 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

Psalm 46:1{To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.} God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble
Psalm 144:1{A Psalm of David.} Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
As Christians the Old Testament is not our guide as to how to live; if it were then we must follow all the teachings and rites which can be found in Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. Our guide on how to live is found in the New Testament through Jesus, and He clearly taught no justification for killing.
 
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In this world a certain number of people will admire your pacifism. Others will see it as a weakness and an excellent opportunity to attack without risking injury. Many years ago I stupidly and unnecessarily revealed my pacifist view to a fellow worker and a few hours later he was brazenly insulting me for absolutely no reason whatsoever. After all-what did he have to lose?
 
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