"For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"caire kecharetomene"
Undertranslated as "full of grace" means more like "has been perfected by grace" And is used as a title not an adjective so means in effect "grace personified"

So when we ask our Lord in the Lords prayer: "keep
us free from temptation (to sin)" - do you doubt His ability to keep free from temptation , even for the one whom "the lord is with her" the one "full of grace"? Honours that are unique amongst human Kind. No other is given such titles.
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"caire kecharetomene"
Undertranslated as "full of grace" means more like "has been perfected by grace" And is used as a title not an adjective so means in effect "grace personified"

So when we ask our Lord in the Lords prayer: "keep
us free from temptation (to sin)" - do you doubt His ability to keep free from temptation , even for the one whom "the lord is with her" the one "full of grace"? Honours that are unique amongst human Kind. No other is given such titles.
Amongst Women.......
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,614
1,591
66
Northern uk
✟561,129.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Seems you want to apply the lords prayer of temptation keeping to mary but what about the part were we ask forgivness of sins? You cant have it both ways
I apply the part where we presume the Lord can do what he says! Keep her free from temptation. Which for one whom the " lord is with her" " completely full of grace"
Is not difficult for our Lord. Nor is it surprising, that God would do so for the one predestined to be the guardian and early teacher of our Lord.

What sin do you say she committed?
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I apply the part where we presume the Lord can do what he says! Keep her free from temptation. Which for one whom the " lord is with her" " completely full of grace"
Is not difficult for our Lord. Nor is it surprising, that God would do so for the one predestined to be the guardian and early teacher of our Lord.

What sin do you say she committed?

If I were to believe some of the folks here at CF, the most horrendous sin she committed was being married to Joseph.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mountainmike
Upvote 0

kepha31

Regular Member
Jun 15, 2007
1,819
595
72
✟44,439.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
If I were to believe some of the folks here at CF, the most horrendous sin she committed was being married to Joseph.
Can you quote anyone who states, suggests or infers her being married to Joseph was in any way sinful?

No? I thought so.

[Staff edit].
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

kepha31

Regular Member
Jun 15, 2007
1,819
595
72
✟44,439.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
"For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." is the thread title.

The OP clearly states: ... ???

Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY - Scripture Catholic


 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,812
13,119
72
✟362,418.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Can you quote anyone who states, suggests or infers her being married to Joseph was in any way sinful?

No? I thought so.

You are mistaken [staff edit]. Although he was probably before your time here, CaliforniaJosiah was active on several threads on this very topic in which Catholic posters expressed personal repugnance at the very idea that Joseph and Mary were actually physically united in marriage.

What do you think of the idea of Mary and Joseph having a normal marriage?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,130
19,010
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,719.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
red-strawberry-hat-wool-beret-girls-winter-wear20667.jpg

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a small clean.
Please try to refrain from falling further short of the standards of CF rules.​
MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"All have sinned" is a statement which can't possibly be literally true. Our Lord did not sin. Most Christians don't believe that He did.

Infants, the senile, the mentally retarded, etc, have never sinned.

So either sacred scripture is wrong on this or else we're not supposed to interpret that line in absolutely literal terms. Using that as a proof text against Our Lady being without sin is kind of weak.

At least, I surmise that's the argument being put forth. I have no idea why the OP consists only of ellipses. Is that a thing now? People just type something vague in a subject line and leave the OP relatively blank, leaving readers to infer their position on something? I see that all the time now and it's incredibly annoying.
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I apply the part where we presume the Lord can do what he says! Keep her free from temptation. Which for one whom the " lord is with her" " completely full of grace"
Is not difficult for our Lord. Nor is it surprising, that God would do so for the one predestined to be the guardian and early teacher of our Lord.

What sin do you say she committed?
1. Wait that prayer for keeping us from temptation was told to his disciples not mary although it is for all who are saved not just mary and yet all sin - you presume but scripture clearly stats All have sinned and all is mary... yet you deny scripture and presume that you are right and God is wrong....
2. When Jesus at 12 and teaching in the temple the teachers and all the men, did mary teach this to Jesus? And when asked why he had done this did Jesus not reply that he was about his Fathers business.... mary may of told Jesus how to help set the table but God taught Jesus.
3. How would we know what sins someone did 2000 years ago just as it is foolish that you make such a statement for it.... heck I dont know what sins you've done so..... do you suppose if mary was present when Jesus asked you who is without sin cast the first stone that lady would of been dead?
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Infants, the senile, the mentally retarded, etc, have never sinned.

So either sacred scripture is wrong on this or else we're not supposed to interpret that line in absolutely literal terms. Using that as a proof text against Our Lady being without sin is kind of weak.

IT REALLY SAYS replys:
would it not of said mary hasnt sinned if it were true?

Now mary..was she an infant or senile or retarded? NOOOOOO... but yet you had to go to the EXTREME to try and make your case sound plausable...

When you say it is a weak case against mary, you act as if you have scriptual proof to back up what you claim and yet not having any you defend from that postion.

Question why did it take the rcc till 1854 to recieve this knowledge of mary being sinless? Do you have the scripture they used to back it up?
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
All have sinned" is a statement which can't possibly be literally true. Our Lord did not sin.
The bible clearly stats Jesus was sinless and you know this yet you used it to try and make a point against scripture that say's all have sinned.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself

So you use scripture here that say all.have sinned yet do you use scripture for the last of your statement of mary being spared? Since I know its not in the word of God where is it at then?
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Heres the thing, the part of keeping us from temptation was told to the desciples on how believers should pray and not word for word but as an example but you make it to mary only as the rest of us ask in vain...

Then when it gets to the part about forgivness of sins marys no where to be found and as I said above you cant have it both ways.... you want to pick and choose what applys where with complete disreguard for scripture against your postion, you reason out why scripture doesnt apply to mary.... and it works for you....
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The bible clearly stats Jesus was sinless and you know this yet you used it to try and make a point against scripture that say's all have sinned.
If you're not going to actually read my post, please don't reply to it. Thanks!
 
Upvote 0

IT REALLY SAYS

Active Member
Aug 9, 2017
152
23
56
florida
✟18,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Can you quote anyone who states, suggests or infers her being married to Joseph was in any way sinful?

No? I thought so.

[Staff edit].
I dont think he was calling it sinful but more along the line that mary is soooooo sinless and godly that her only donwfall was joe..... he was holding her back from stardom I tell ya, the big city lights were at her beckon call but joe...always joe keepin her down... in other words you have all built mary up a 100 fold what the bible tells us about her....
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I dont think he was calling it sinful but more along the line that mary is soooooo sinless and godly that her only donwfall was joe..... he was holding her back from stardom I tell ya, the big city lights were at her beckon call but joe...always joe keepin her down... in other words you have all built mary up a 100 fold what the bible tells us about her....
The beliefs the Church Fathers had of Our Lady is pretty similar to what we traditional Christians believe today. Some of those writings were written during the lifetimes of apostles. Others were written during the lifetimes of the apostles immediate successors.

Where do you suppose the early Church got these ideas about Our Lady?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.