A flat earth, and Noah's Ark.

GodB4S

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Matthew 13:10-15
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:

‘You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’

I believe that Genesis is not meant to be taken literally. Just like Jesus spoke in parables, i believe that Genesis has hidden meanings!

I believed Jesus talked in parables too but he talk true all the time...there was a woman that lost a coin, I believe there was a son that asked his father for his portion and left to come back wiser...there was a field with a treasure in it and the man bought it...ect. ect. that made up the parables. Jesus explains the parable of the sower, but I believe there was a sower and another farmer that sent workers to put tares in to hinder the competition...Jesus used truths to show us that the laws of nature can show us the laws of the spirit...Jesus told Peter to cast his net on the other side after towing all night for nothing...it showed Peter the power of the Christ and the spirit of God will make you fishers of men...fishers not catchers for God does the catching...Peter was in fear of the truth Jesus showed him! You can fish all night and catch nothing, but catching is done in minutes and worth much more!
 
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JacksBratt

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How about the fact that the only way to draw a map of the surface of the earth where all distances are in proportion, is on the outside of a globe?
Is this true? I know that when I state a "fact" or propose and idea, people here want to see how I arrived at this.
Do you have anything that is proof of this fact?
 
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JacksBratt

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No proof at all.

Who knows what animal as 100,s of different animals have gone extinct

No dinosaur bones have ever been found with human ones, ever! Lots of fake sites the say they have.
All I'm saying is there are no animals mentioned in history, other than a brontosaurus, that fit this description.

There are human foot prints with dino foot prints too ya know...

But, as usual, they just say that they are fake, or a hoax and then science rings true over the biblical account of history and the facts that are solidified in stones....
 
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JacksBratt

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Matthew 13:10-15
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says:

‘You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’

I believe that Genesis is not meant to be taken literally. Just like Jesus spoke in parables, i believe that Genesis has hidden meanings!
To say that Genesis is a parable follows no pattern of the scriptures.
 
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Goatee

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All I'm saying is there are no animals mentioned in history, other than a brontosaurus, that fit this description.

There are human foot prints with dino foot prints too ya know...

But, as usual, they just say that they are fake, or a hoax and then science rings true over the biblical account of history and the facts that are solidified in stones....

They are fake, as has been proven!
 
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squirrel123

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Is this true? I know that when I state a "fact" or propose and idea, people here want to see how I arrived at this.
Do you have anything that is proof of this fact?
Yes, it is true.

The proof would be to show the inaccuracies in every different type of flat map, and/or to show the accuracy of a model globe (which I can't do on the Internet, for obvious reasons). IF you truly are interested in verifying the shape of the earth, an interesting project would be to find different types of maps and check the distances between various sets of points in both hemispheres for yourself.
 
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JackRT

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There are human foot prints with dino foot prints too ya know...

This was disproven decades ago and even the more responsible creationist organizations warn against using this as an argument.
 
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Ok, clearly you are only reading what you want to read... I have already, many times, stated that I am not a flat earther, but there are questions that don't have answers and I am searching for truth....

The statements that you are making are argued by the flat earth theorists and I am merely telling you what they believe to be the explanations for your statements.


I know their answers and explanations from researching their belief.... I don't just stand back and say... that's false... that's not true.... that's rubbish.... that's impossible....

I look at what they are saying and look into it for myself.

For instance.... You are aware that one of the biggest problems they are having with sending people to mars, is the Van Allan Belts.

These are belts of magnetic flux that trap radioactive particles that are emmited from space and the sun. They collect in these bands around the earth.

These belts are so radio active that if the space shuttle, or International space station, go much further out than, correct me if I'm wrong... 400 miles, they start to see spots, flashing lights with their eyes closed and experience high doses of radiation.

This radiation will go right through the space craft and would destroy conventional camera film..

Question... Why is this a problem, today, with today's technology, when it was absolutely no problem for ANY of the Apollo missions, where they went back and forth through this radioactivity in, basically, a tin can??????

No ill effects, no damaged film, no damaged electronics... NADA.

But, the Mars mission is stumped...

Please... any ideas?

So if you are not a flat earther, then why did you defend a flat earth view? Have you recently changed your mind? I asked if you believe in a flat ring world or a flat dome type Earth. Your reply from before led me to believe you believe in a flat earth dome atmosphere type view. Just tell me what kind of Earth you believe in. Do you believe the Earth is half of a sphere? Or do you believe the Earth is a full sphere? Just tell it to me straight.


...
 
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The biblical global flood supposedly covered the planet. Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall and the diameter of the earth at the equator, on the other hand, is 12,756.8 km. All we have to do is calculate the volume of water to fill a sphere with a radius of the Earth + Mount Everest; then we subtract the volume of a sphere with a radius of the Earth. Now, I know this won't yield a perfect result, because the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it will serve to give a general idea about the amounts involved.

So, here are the calculations:

First, Everest

V= 4/3 * pi * r^3

= 4/3 * pi * (6387.248 km)^3

= 1.09151 x 10^12 cubic kilometres


Now, the Earth at sea level


V = 4/3 * pi * r^3

= 4/3 * pi * (6378.4 km)^3

= 1.08698 x 10^12 cubic kilometres

The difference between these two figures, 4.525 x 10^9 cubic kilometres is the amount of water needed to just cover the Earth. Or, to put into a more sensible number, 4,525,000,000 cubic kilometres. This is one helluva lot of water.

For those who think it might come from the polar ice caps, please don't forget that water is more dense than ice, and thus that the volume of ice present in those ice caps would have to be more than the volume of water necessary.


Some interesting physical effects of all that water, too. How much weight do you think that is? Well, water at STP weighs in at 1 gram/cubic centimetre so:

4.252x10^9 km^3 of water,

x 10^6 (= cubic meters),

x 10^6 (= cubic centimetres),

x 1 g/cm^3 (= grams),

x 1o^-3 (= kilograms),

= 4.525X 10^21 kg.

Ever wonder what the effects of that much weight would be? Well, many times in the near past (i.e., the Pleistocene), continental ice sheets covered many of the northern states and most all of Canada. For the sake of argument, let's call the area covered by the Wisconsonian advance (the latest and greatest) was 10,000,000,000 km^2, by an average thickness of 1 km of ice (a good estimate...it was thicker in the zones of accumulation and much thinner elsewhere at the ablating edges. Now, 1.00x10^7 km^2 X 1 km thickness equals 1.00x10^7 km^3 of ice. Now, remember earlier that we noted that it would take 4.525x10^9 km^3 of water for the flood? Well, looking at the Wisconsinian glaciation, all that ice (which is frozen water, remember?) would be precisely 0.222 percent of the water needed for the flood.

Well, the Wisconsinian glacial stade ended about 25,000 BP as compared for the approximately supposedly 4,000 BP flood event. Due to these late Pleistocene glaciations some 21,000 years preceding the supposed biblical flood, the mass of the ice had actually depressed the crust of the Earth. That crust, now that the ice is gone, is slowly rising (called glacial rebound); and this rebound can be measured, in places (like northern Wisconsin), in centimetres/year. Sea level was also lowered some 10's of meters due to the very finite amount of water in the Earth's hydrosphere being locked up in glacial ice sheets (geologists call this glacioeustacy).


Now, glacial rebound can only be measured, obviously, in glaciated terrains, i.e., the Sahara is not rebounding as it was not glaciated during the Pleistocene. This lack of rebound is noted by laser ranged interferometery and satellite geodesy, as well as by geomorphology. Glacial striae on bedrock, eskers, tills, moraines, rouche moutenees, drumlins, kame and kettle topography, fjords, deranged fluvial drainage and erratic blocks all betray a glacier's passage. Needless to say, these geomorphological expressions are not found everywhere on Earth (for instance, like the Sahara). Therefore, although extensive, the glaciers were a local (not global) is scale. Yet, at only 0.222% the size of the supposed flood, they have had a PROFOUND and EASILY recognisable and measurable effects on the lands. Yet, the supposed flood of Noah, supposedly global in extent, supposedly much more recent, and supposedly orders of magnitude larger in scale; has exactly zero measurable effects and zero evidence for it's occurrence.


Even further, let us take a realistic and dispassionate look at the other claims relating to global flooding. Particularly, in order to flood the Earth to the Genesis requisite depth of 10 cubits (5 m) above the summit of Mt. Ararat (5,151 m AMSL), it would obviously require a water depth of 5,155.7 m, or over three miles above mean sea level. In order to accomplish this little task, it would require the previously noted additional 4.525 x 10^9 km^3 of water to flood the Earth to this depth. The Earth's present hydrosphere (the sum total of all waters in, on and above the Earth) totals only 1.37 x 10^9 km^3. Where would this additional 4.525 x 10^9 km^3 of water come from? It cannot come from water vapour (i.e., clouds) because the atmospheric pressure would be 840 times greater than standard pressure of the atmosphere today. Further, the latent heat released when the vapour condenses into liquid water would be enough to raise the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere to approximately 3,570 C.


Someone has suggested that all the water needed to flood the Earth existed as liquid water surrounding the globe (i.e., a "vapour canopy"). This, of course, is staggeringly stupid. What is keeping that much water from falling to the Earth? There is a little property called gravity that would cause it to fall.


Let's look into that from a physical standpoint. To flood the Earth, we have already seen that it would require 4.252 x 10^9 km^3 of water with a mass of 4.525 x 10^21 kg. When this amount of water is floating above the Earth's surface, it stored an enormous amount of potential energy, which is converted to kinetic energy when it falls, which, in turn, is converted to heat upon impact with the Earth. The amount of heat released is immense:

Potential energy: E=M*g*H, where

M = mass of water,

g = gravitational constant and,

H = height of water above surface.

Now, going with the Genesis version of the Noachian Deluge as lasting 40 days and nights, the amount of mass falling to Earth each day is 4.525 x 10^21 kg/40 24 hr. periods. This equals 1.10675 x 10^20 kilograms daily. Using H as 16,000 meters), the energy released each day is 1.73584 x 10^25 joules. The amount of energy the Earth would have to radiate per m^2/sec is energy divided by surface area of the Earth times number of seconds in one day. That is: e = 1.735384 x 10^25/(4*3.14159* ((6386)^2*86,400)) = 391,935.0958 j/m^2/s.

Currently, the Earth radiates energy at the rate of approximately 215 joules/m2/sec and the average temperature is 280 K. Using the Stefan- Boltzman 4th power law to calculate the increase in temperature:

E (increase)/E (normal) = T (increase)/T^4 (normal)


E (normal) = 215

E (increase) = 391,935.0958

T (normal) = 280.


Turn the crank, and T (increase) equals 1800 K.


The temperature would thusly rise 1800 K, or 1,526.84 C (that's well above melting temperature of lead). It would be highly unlikely that anything short of fused quartz would survive such an onslaught. Also, the water level would have to rise at an average rate of 5.5 inches/min; and in 13 minutes would be in excess of 6 ft deep.

Finally, at 1800 K water would not exist as liquid.


It is quite clear that a Biblical Flood is and was quite impossible.


By Dr. Marty Leipzig at:

http://www.holysmoke.org/cretins/fludmath.htm

Simple. The Tectonic plates shifted with the fountains of the deep breaking up with all that hot liquid magma and made Mt. Everest to be higher than it is. When the polar ice caps melted mixing with the heated waters it could have been like letting hot air out of a balloon. If you don't believe that, then just believe God found a way for the flood to do so. For God parted the Red Sea. That was obviously a supernatural event. It is not impossible that God had judged the world with a supernatural flood. In other words, put the Science down and just believe what the Bible says. The waters covered the highest mountains according to Scripture. Our first standpoint is a faith thing and not a science thing. Science can support God's Word, but it is not always necessary.


...
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes, it is true.

The proof would be to show the inaccuracies in every different type of flat map, and/or to show the accuracy of a model globe (which I can't do on the Internet, for obvious reasons). IF you truly are interested in verifying the shape of the earth, an interesting project would be to find different types of maps and check the distances between various sets of points in both hemispheres for yourself.
So, no, you don't have any way to prove this as a fact.

From what I have looked into, all the globe earth people believe that the flat paper map of the globe is distorted because you cannot draw a map of a round, spherical earth on a flat piece of paper.. Which, I agree, would be impossible without gaps and distortion.

However, if the earth was flat, then the globe model would be distorted.

There is no proof for either belief.

I have a map of my county and all the distances are perfectly fine with no distortion and it is a flat map that I had on my wall.

Is this possible only due to the fact that I'm only looking at a few hundred miles? Would this change if I did this to my province, country?

I could not prove that the earth is flat or a globe by the way we draw maps.

But..

Check this out:

 
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JacksBratt

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So if you are not a flat earther, then why did you defend a flat earth view? Have you recently changed your mind? I asked if you believe in a flat ring world or a flat dome type Earth. Your reply from before led me to believe you believe in a flat earth dome atmosphere type view. Just tell me what kind of Earth you believe in. Do you believe the Earth is half of a sphere? Or do you believe the Earth is a full sphere? Just tell it to me straight.


...
As I have said before, I believe that the earth is a globe. However there are things with this belief that are in question. I am simply searching for answers.

In the end, it matters little to me. My salvation is not altered by either model...Yet, if the earth was flat... IF, that is... what would happen to evolution, life on other planets, Aliens????

So, I have to ask, if the flat earth is the deception.... what would the purpose of this deception be? Why would Satan introduce a deception that would contradict or kill the evolutionary theory?

Would it not be better to introduce a deception that, in all aspects, makes this theory of spontaneous anti biblical formation of the earth and all life possible?
 
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JackRT

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Simple. The Tectonic plates shifted with the fountains of the deep breaking up with all that hot liquid magma and made Mt. Everest to be higher than it is. When the polar ice caps melted mixing with the heated waters it could have been like letting hot air out of a balloon. If you don't believe that, then just believe God found a way for the flood to do so. For God parted the Red Sea. That was obviously a supernatural event. It is not impossible that God had judged the world with a supernatural flood. In other words, put the Science down and just believe what the Bible says. The waters covered the highest mountains according to Scripture. It is a faith thing and not a science thing.


...

There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 25 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 5600 BC due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.
 
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There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 25 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 5600 BC due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.

I first believe God's Word. That is the starting point. Putting evidence before the Word is like putting the cart before the horse. Oh, and yes. I believe there is evidence for a global flood. But such evidence is not required. Faith in God's Word comes first. Then one can see. Sort of like when Indiana Jones had took a step of faith in the Last Crusade where he discovered he was walking on an invisible bridge.

...
 
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squirrel123

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So, no, you don't have any way to prove this as a fact.

From what I have looked into, all the globe earth people believe that the flat paper map of the globe is distorted because you cannot draw a map of a round, spherical earth on a flat piece of paper.. Which, I agree, would be impossible without gaps and distortion.

However, if the earth was flat, then the globe model would be distorted.

There is no proof for either belief.

I have a map of my county and all the distances are perfectly fine with no distortion and it is a flat map that I had on my wall.

Is this possible only due to the fact that I'm only looking at a few hundred miles? Would this change if I did this to my province, country?

I could not prove that the earth is flat or a globe by the way we draw maps.

But..

Check this out:

Not able to prove on an Internet forum =/= not able to prove.

Of course you can print a reasonably accurate map of a piece of the earth's surface - the distortion because the globe is so big, maps most countries can be printed on maps with the distortion so small that it becomes immeasurable on the size of the printed map. (I suspect Russia may be an exception)

The fact that you are unwilling to conduct a simple experiment (measuring various maps for yourself) shows me that I was correct in my initial assessment of your intentions - you are not truly curious and looking for the truth, you are trolling. A truly curious person does not confine his searches to Internet forums when presented with other sources.

PS: I have already proven the most common flat-earth map wrong on this thread...
 
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quartetman1

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I believe that, according to Paul's demonstration; Noah may have lived on a flat earth and would have had no problem boarding on the ark, all the animals that God requested; without an issue.
Flat earth. Globe earth. A simple proof to find out. At the ocean shore pick a stable subject. Either a boardwalk post, a gas station, whatever, a subject that is small, but a subject that is stationary and doesn't move. Take a helicopter and fly at sea level directly away from the subject towards the ocean, 90 degrees away from the shore. Fly until you no longer see the subject. Stop forward motion. Turn around 180 degrees. Now fly straight up until you see the whole subject, including the bottom of the subject. Stop upward motion. Now fly down to sea level. Flying at sea level, start forward motion. The top of the subject will appear first. As you progress towards the subject you will eventually see the bottom of the subject.
The proof is the ocean is curved, the earth is not flat, it is a globe.
Simple proof.
 
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