Youth Leader wearing revealing attire

[faroukfarouk]

Can there be different types of leadership? As well as a chain of leadership?

I think it is a very good thing to have some women in a church who can provide spiritual counseling to young women, because frankly there are some topics that most young women will not feel are appropriate to discuss with a man, even he is a Godly man, maybe especially if he is a Godly man, but those same young women might be able to open up more about their spiritual struggles in regards to temptations and whatnot if they could speak with a woman instead. It seems really no different from how a young man might be having some certain struggles that he would not feel are appropriate to discuss with a woman, no matter how old or faithful to God she has been or for how long.

But this also wouldn't necessarily have to mean that simultaneously, a woman in such a position has any ultimate authority over an entire demographic of the church, but rather she could run as a sort of encouraging buffer, i.e. she is there if young women need to discuss something with a woman, but then she (that woman) can go to receive further advice from a church elder, anonymously on behalf of the younger woman. So that it would ultimately be more of a service in helping younger women keep their faith and avoid sin, but not necessarily instructing those younger women on her own nor being presented as some sort of example for those young women.

As far as the bathing suit incident, I agree with some others here that the attitude as described, at least, seems to be more of an issue than the bathing suit itself, but then we also don't know how the topic was approached, either. Like did someone take her aside privately and explain to her the how/why as far as the bathing suit being potentially harmful to the youth, and then give her an opportunity to contemplate and agree, or was she ambushed with sheer judgement she was not expecting in front of others, perhaps causing her to become defensive in a panic? Etc. The details in this regard my help reveal whether or not she is still fit to serve as that sort of go-between for young women with sensitive concerns, and church elders, even if she does not yet have the maturity to be a leader in the sense of setting an example.

I just remember in the church of my childhood, there were youth leaders, but it was their job to be there for younger members who needed someone to talk to about spiritual struggles/advice when the youth were too uncomfortable going right to the pastor for whatever reasons, and there was a woman for the female youth and a man for the male youth, so that particularly sensitive topics were kept separate in that regard, out of respect for the youth, themselves, and also to help encourage their confidence in being open and honest about their struggles. The pastor ultimately gave advice, which was then passed down to the youth who needed the somewhat anonymous buffer in order to have the courage to open up about things.

Some useful, cautionary comments here. In my experience, such as it is, the ostensible attempts at the policing of church dress codes sometimes also comes with other interrelated and sometimes more hidden personality dynamics.

 

[Paidiske]

Farouk, much of the buttock area would have been exposed, is the issue.

 

[TurtleAnne]

Some useful, cautionary comments here. In my experience, such as it is, the ostensible attempts at the policing of church dress codes sometimes also comes with other interrelated and sometimes more hidden personality dynamics.

Can you elaborate a bit?

I know it is different in different churches. I actually had my own little blunder several years ago, when I decided to attend this tiny church that was nearby my home, without researching its beliefs first (big mistake in retrospect). It was just one of the curious, impulsive moments in my life when I was just hey like why not, so I dropped in on their sermon right before it began. And it turned out they held a belief that women should not have their heads uncovered in the church, and I didn't even have a hat or hoodie with me, so they all just seemed horrified and offended by my presence, the only reason I stayed through half the sermon was because one of the men there hesitantly invited me to stay, but then halfway through the sermon the leader started instructing everyone to pray for the young people being led very astray, and the women in the pews all turned and gave me dagger eyes, and I just left in an embarrassed hurry.

So even when it comes to other angles, let alone just bathing suit bikinis, I can certainly understand now the importance of actually clarifying a dress code in a new church. I still remember how awkward and embarrassing that was to this day heh.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We recently hired a new youth leader to our team a few months ago. She has been a believer for 6 years and seems to have zeal for her pursuit of the Lord and in time has formed great relationships with the girls in our group. Recently we had an annual indoor heated pool event for our youth group. The males are required to wear at least a tank top and the girls have to wear at least a one piece or a dark shirt over a two piece. The same rules obviously apply to the leaders. Quite to our surprise this particular leader obeyed in wearing a one piece but it was a thong in the back and extremely revealing so as to call unwanted attention and stumbling for the males and questions from the girls. She defended herself by stating she wasn't doing anything we weren't told to do which seemed like sliding by the rules because of lack of specifics. She doesn't seem to think her actions were wrong and unfortunately it seems we may have to remove her as a leader all because of this incident which will affect the girls she has already bonded with. We want to approach this situation with grace but at the same time truth and we don't wish for this to turn into a bigger situation than it needed to be. Unfortunately there is no excuse for someone in her position of leadership to wear such attire around people she is supposed to be ministering to and defending herself in such a subtly sneakyway if I may add. It came way out of left field and we just want to do what is right in God's eyes regarding her future here withus. Any advice?

She followed the rules, didn't she? It was a one-piece...wasn't it? Did the rules specifically say that it couldn't be a thong on a one-piece?

If she followed the rules as they were written...then your self-righteous indignation is misplaced. If anyone failed as a leader...it's the person who wrote the rules and those who blamed a girl for following them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Farouk, much of the buttock area would have been exposed, is the issue.

This is what my post #80, above, was intended to convey, without saying so in so many words.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Can you elaborate a bit?

I know it is different in different churches. I actually had my own little blunder several years ago, when I decided to attend this tiny church that was nearby my home, without researching its beliefs first (big mistake in retrospect). It was just one of the curious, impulsive moments in my life when I was just hey like why not, so I dropped in on their sermon right before it began. And it turned out they held a belief that women should not have their heads uncovered in the church, and I didn't even have a hat or hoodie with me, so they all just seemed horrified and offended by my presence, the only reason I stayed through half the sermon was because one of the men there hesitantly invited me to stay, but then halfway through the sermon the leader started instructing everyone to pray for the young people being led very astray, and the women in the pews all turned and gave me dagger eyes, and I just left in an embarrassed hurry.

So even when it comes to other angles, let alone just bathing suit bikinis, I can certainly understand now the importance of actually clarifying a dress code in a new church. I still remember how awkward and embarrassing that was to this day heh.

It's really a two way thing; not always a one way street. On the one hand someone visiting might usefully and respectfully try to figure if there were any expectations; on the other, being welcoming to new guests is an art that some Christians (maybe not all) try hard at.

For both sides, visitors and hosts alike, mutual respect as to where each may variously be coming from is far preferable to guilt manipulation - or even defiance.

 

[TurtleAnne]

It's really a two way thing; not always a one way street. On the one hand someone visiting might usefully and respectfully try to figure if there were any expectations; on the other, being welcoming to new guests is an art that some Christians (maybe not all) try hard at.

For both sides, visitors and hosts alike, mutual respect as to where each may variously be coming from is far preferable to guilt manipulation - or even defiance.

Oh, so like were you alluding to the possibility that the youth leader in question was deliberately trying to circumvent the intended purpose of the rules? I would agree that sure, that is a very real possibility. It does seem like a common sense thing not to expose one's butt at a Christian youth group event of all places, since the event combines not only Christian values but also youth at the same time. But then it was also probably considered common sense to actually research a denomination before dropping in on their sermon and upsetting them all with my exposed hair. So perhaps it is my own history of occasionally drinking from the stupid fountain that makes me open to the possibility of poor decision moment vs malicious intent. But yeah malicious intent is just as valid a possibility.

 

[faroukfarouk]

...

So even when it comes to other angles, let alone just bathing suit bikinis, I can certainly understand now the importance of actually clarifying a dress code in a new church. I still remember how awkward and embarrassing that was to this day heh.

Re. the bikini thing (sometime this item is singled out), some bikinis are actually more expansive than some stringy one-piece creations. When we invited young women and others from church to our pool in the backyard, I didn't expect that some of the young women would wear something other than bikinis; it was a non-issue. (Imagine hosts saying; "Please come and use our pool. If you wear a bikini, you are not welcome." ???!!!)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Oh, so like were you alluding to the possibility that the youth leader in question was deliberately trying to circumvent the intended purpose of the rules? I would agree that sure, that is a very real possibility. It does seem like a common sense thing not to expose one's butt at a Christian youth group event of all places, since the event combines not only Christian values but also youth at the same time. But then it was also probably considered common sense to actually research a denomination before dropping in on their sermon and upsetting them all with my exposed hair. So perhaps it is my own history of occasionally drinking from the stupid fountain that makes me open to the possibility of poor decision moment vs malicious intent. But yeah malicious intent is just as valid a possibility.

Actually I didn't particular get the impression from the account given that it was maliciously done (but how do I know? )
My original point was, I suppose, in gymnastic and volleyball events that are widely publicized and broadcast, would the young women there be dressed similarly? maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't.
Maybe it's best in these circumstances to move on.

 

[Kayla37]

OP here and to follow up and give more clarity to the discussion, she is 24 years old and she is not in charge completely of the youth. She we have a team of 5 youth leaders she is simply one of the leaders who ministers particularly to the girls. I understand some of you are saying she is okay because she followed the rules and technically she did, however we have never had a youth or a leader for that matter has never worn a thong style swimsuit so we never thought to specifically include that as a rule. Hence saying it seemed "sneaky".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

OP here and to follow up and give more clarity to the discussion, she is 24 years old and she is not in charge completely of the youth. She we have a team of 5 youth leaders she is simply one of the leaders who ministers particularly to the girls. I understand some of you are saying she is okay because she followed the rules and technically she did, however we have never had a youth or a leader for that matter has never worn a thong style swimsuit so we never thought to specifically include that as a rule. Hence saying it seemed "sneaky".

I wouldn't assume it was "sneaky". It may have been, but it may have also just been poor taste.

The troubling thing was the resistance to correction, if that is in fact what happened.

 

[Kayla37]

I wouldn't assume it was "sneaky". It may have been, but it may have also just been poor taste.

The troubling thing was the resistance to correction, if that is in fact what happened.

Well we confronted her about what happened and she responded about how she did indeed follow the rules by wearing a one piece. Without even realizing that a thong back was just as or even more inappropriate than a 2 piece. It seemed very defiant especially being in front of all the youth.

 

[Paidiske]

I think confronting her in front of "all the youth" was terribly inappropriate. Discipline should have occurred in private, and while her response may not have been right, I don't think it was very surprising either for someone taken by surprise and humiliated publicly.

I think the church has some thinking to do about communication and policies around how various issues are handled, and that it would be unfair to scapegoat a junior member of staff for what looks to me like more of a systemic failure.

 

[Kayla37]

I think confronting her in front of "all the youth" was terribly inappropriate. Discipline should have occurred in private, and while her response may not have been right, I don't think it was very surprising either for someone taken by surprise and humiliated publicly.

I think the church has some thinking to do about communication and policies around how various issues are handled, and that it would be unfair to scapegoat a junior member of staff for what looks to me like more of a systemic failure.

I think it was more of a "run and cover" kind of reaction. She just showed up wearing it in front of all of the youth and it was a quick reaction to try to prevent her exposure for too long. We tried to call her over while she was already engaged with the youth and when she had not come over we ended up just addressing it there. Not exactly how we desired it to happen.

 

[pdudgeon]

I think it was more of a "run and cover" kind of reaction. She just showed up wearing it in front of all of the youth and it was a quick reaction to try to prevent her exposure for too long. We tried to call her over while she was already engaged with the youth and when she had not come over we ended up just addressing it there. Not exactly how we desired it to happen.

umm no.
in that case another lady equiped with a swim coverup or a beach towel should go over to her,
ask her quietly to put it on, (eg. "X", could you put this on please and come with me? we need to have a talk")
and then take her aside privately and talk to her.

there are instructions in the Bible for the correct way to reprimand a brother or sister who has transgressed for whatever reason, and doing so in public with witnesses is the very last thing that is done.
not the first.

so what it comes down to here is that your church leadership needs more instruction on both discipling and communication.

 

[Kayla37]

umm no.
in that case another lady equiped with a swim coverup or a beach towel should go over to her,
ask her quietly to put it on, (eg. "X", could you put this on please and come with me? we need to have a talk")
and then take her aside privately and talk to her.

there are instructions in the Bible for the correct way to reprimand a brother or sister who has transgressed for whatever reason, and doing so in public with witnesses is the very last thing that is done.
not the first.

so what it comes down to here is that your church leadership needs more instruction on both discipling and communication.

That's exactly what we wanted to do but she wouldn't come over to talk away from the group

 

[pdudgeon]

That's exactly what we wanted to do but she wouldn't come over to talk away from the group

and that's when the helpful lady in question goes over to her with the beach towel, prefaces her remarks with
"excuse me, I'm sorry to break up this conversation, but we need "X's" help with something."

like i said before, your leadership needs instruction in communication.

 

[Kayla37]

and that's when the helpful lady in question goes over to her with the beach towel, prefaces her remarks with
"excuse me, I'm sorry to break up this conversation, but we need "X's" help with something."

like i said before, your leadership needs instruction in communication.

That's hard to do when she is surrounded by children in the pool.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes it is. But I think what pdudgeon and I are trying to say is that once it's got to that point, there may not be any perfect response, but blaming the young lady in question (when there are multiple points before that where it could have been prevented and wasn't), and for reacting badly to being confronted publicly, is unfair. There are more issues to look at here than just deciding whether or not she should get to keep her job.

Which brings me back around to my first point; who thought this was a great activity anyway?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes it is. But I think what pdudgeon and I are trying to say is that once it's got to that point, there may not be any perfect response, but blaming the young lady in question (when there are multiple points before that where it could have been prevented and wasn't), and for reacting badly to being confronted publicly, is unfair. There are more issues to look at here than just deciding whether or not she should get to keep her job.

Which brings me back around to my first point; who thought this was a great activity anyway?

You are doing pretty much was you accuse the OP and the other leaders of doing. The irony. . .

You are lacking empathy for the other leaders and failing to understand the shocking "emergency" situation there were in. They had to act quickly for the good of the kids in the pool. Have you forgotten them and their wellbeing as you try to protect the perpetrator?

Of all the people on this forum, I would imagine that you would be the last to blame the victim.

Hindsight is 20/20. You're second-guessing the people who were their on sight, and if I were her, I would be rather insulted.