Church run like a business??

Kenny'sID

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cant people just meet in each others homes, I'm really tired of this whole church 'business' thing where they constantly go on about finances. I don't care if we meet in a field even

I completely get where you're coming from.

I suppose a certain amount of it is necessary, but there is probably a huge certain amount that is not.

25 or so yrs ago when I was much more naive than now, I made the mistake of sending money to Kenneth Copland, and the response was all this junk mail, all about getting more money, it was terrible. I could just feel it wasn't right. I finally had to get on the phone, and not sure but seems I recall cussing them out, I was that furious at the whole thing, and they finally got me out of their system/off their mailing list.

But things like that are what got me looking a little closer at some of these TV preachers, and learning some good lessons early on.

I don't care how sincere they are, or once were, but introduce money into the mix, and anything can and will happen.
 
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eyeamnicegirl

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Well, businesses have as their core purpose to make money. That's why a business owner has a business. And for those of us who don't "own a business," the same general concept applies -- we go to work in exchange for money, and if the boss doesn't pay us as scheduled, we will immediately stop going to work. When a church is "run like a business," that's a very bad sign, because the purpose of the church is (supposed to be) to win lost souls and minister to the saved souls. If the church's goal is the make money, then there is serious problem. Saving lost souls is not particularly profitable; same goes with ministering to the saved. Yes, some individuals give money, with a few going above and beyond, to cover the operating costs of the institution. And there are a LOT of free riders, who don't give enough to cover their cost of being there, or maybe not give anything at all. That's why we normally call it ministry and not a business, because if you are doing things right, very little of what you do will be profitable. Sort of like giving to the homeless mission or the Salvation Army -- you know its a one-way trip for your money, there just can't be any profit in it. If you church is being run on a profit mode (translated, the big bosses/preachers are getting paid piles of money like Creflo Dollar or Benny Hinn), then you need to get out of there as fast as possible.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Well, businesses have as their core purpose to make money. That's why a business owner has a business. And for those of us who don't "own a business," the same general concept applies -- we go to work in exchange for money, and if the boss doesn't pay us as scheduled, we will immediately stop going to work. When a church is "run like a business," that's a very bad sign, because the purpose of the church is (supposed to be) to win lost souls and minister to the saved souls. If the church's goal is the make money, then there is serious problem. Saving lost souls is not particularly profitable; same goes with ministering to the saved. Yes, some individuals give money, with a few going above and beyond, to cover the operating costs of the institution. And there are a LOT of free riders, who don't give enough to cover their cost of being there, or maybe not give anything at all. That's why we normally call it ministry and not a business, because if you are doing things right, very little of what you do will be profitable. Sort of like giving to the homeless mission or the Salvation Army -- you know its a one-way trip for your money, there just can't be any profit in it. If you church is being run on a profit mode (translated, the big bosses/preachers are getting paid piles of money like Creflo Dollar or Benny Hinn), then you need to get out of there as fast as possible.
Yes, the spiritual side of a local church ministry is what it's all about.
 
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Goodbook

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aiki, good points.
I don't know why people make distinction between church and Church. Is church somehow different from Church. Maybe I should call it CHURCH. So everyone gets what I am saying.

HELP THE CHURCH I FELLOWSHIP IN SEEMS TO BE RUN LIKE A BUSINESS.

I thought CHURCH was the body of Christ not a shop.
 
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Goodbook

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I shouldn't have to contend with a 'special offer' or 'free gift' and then be hit with a big bill later. Or asked for money for that matter with little envelopes asking me to put my credit card details. You go to read the church magazine and out falls out a whole lot of appeals asking for cash. What do they think I am, a bank?
 
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Had to read through a pile of terms and conditions and basically you sign your life away if you end up subscribing to this so-called free video library netflix thing.

When there's actually a local free to air christian tv channel that has started broadcasting.

Anyway, not overly impressed with the choices this youth pastor has made so far, I mean refusing bibles then signing up to this hundred dollar monthly tv subscription without even checking it out first. It sent emails out to everyone in the fellowship book. Ok if you wanna do that stuff, go on facebook.
 
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Goodbook

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Well. have warned him. Maybe pray God will talk sense into him, that's all I can do. :-(

I go away from this church and then this happens so really am wondering maybe just not go anymore. Stay home or fellowship with the housebound lady who can't have communion cos the pastors don't even bother to drop by.

At least, she doesn't mind if I put scripture on her walls, do the gardening and give her gifts to share around.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Had to read through a pile of terms and conditions and basically you sign your life away if you end up subscribing to this so-called free video library netflix thing.

And netflix is not all that wholesome...yeah, that's too much. They got no business messing with that stuff.

People just think it's an excuse so I generally keep my mouth shut about it, but it's junk like this and so many other things that keep me from even bothering with a church, and in spite of what some think of that, I don't feel the least bit guilty about it...not in this day and age.
 
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AlexDTX

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Well, many hear Jesus commissioning Peter to exactly that: to be shepherd of the Lord's sheep:

Berean Study Bible
Jesus asked a second time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?" "Yes, Lord," he answered, "You know I love You." Jesus told him, "Shepherd My sheep."

Berean Literal Bible
He says to him again a second time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?" He says to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I dearly love You." He says to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

New American Standard 1977
He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A second time He asked him, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?"" Yes, Lord," he said to Him, "You know that I love You." "Shepherd My sheep," He told him.

NET Bible
Jesus said a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He replied, "Yes, Lord, you know I love you." Jesus told him, "Shepherd my sheep."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He said to him again a second time, “Shimeon Bar Yonah, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, my Lord. You know that I love you.” Yeshua said to him, “Shepherd my sheep for me.”

New American Standard Bible
He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

Darby Bible Translation
He says to him again a second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He says to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I am attached to thee. He says to him, Shepherd my sheep.

Weymouth New Testament
Again a second time He asked him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" "Yes, Master," he said, "you know that you are dear to me." "Then be a shepherd to my sheep," He said.

Those are English translations of the Greek word, poimainō, which means "feed the sheep". The Greek word for shepherd is, poimēn, from which the first word is derived. Peter is not being called a shepherd, but to aid the shepherd in feeding the flock.

There are many who call themselves pastors who recognize that they are servants of the Pastor, and call themselves under-shepherds. There are men who are gifted in the care of the saints, and one time in the Bible, Ephesians 4, the term pastor is used. The rest of the time it always refers to Jesus.
 
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fide

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Those are English translations of the Greek word, poimainō, which means "feed the sheep". The Greek word for shepherd is, poimēn, from which the first word is derived. Peter is not being called a shepherd, but to aid the shepherd in feeding the flock.

There are many who call themselves pastors who recognize that they are servants of the Pastor, and call themselves under-shepherds. There are men who are gifted in the care of the saints, and one time in the Bible, Ephesians 4, the term pastor is used. The rest of the time it always refers to Jesus.

Hello Alex - yes, Peter is not being called "a shepherd", he is being called "to shepherd" - to tend as a shepherd tends - the sheep of the Lord. This verb translation makes a verb from the noun it derives from, "shepherd."

Below is an interesting part of the exegesis of Fr. Ray Brown, a Catholic Biblical scholar. From The Gospel According to John, Raymond E. Brown, S.S., 1970. The Anchor Bible, Doubleday, Garden City NY. vol.2 p. 1104.
(part of exegesis of Jn 21:15-17)

"feed my lambs." In the three instances of Jesus' command to Peter there is a considerable variety of vocabulary:

15: "Feed my lambs" = boskein arnion
16: "Tend my sheep" = poimainein probaton
17: "Feed my little sheep" = boskein probation


As for the verb, in LXX both boskein and poimainein translate Heb. ra’ah [feed (רעה ra'ah, Strong's #7462)]* and so we can be dubious about attempts to find a sharp distinction between them (the Vulgate of 15-17 uses pascere to translate both). Yet, if they are largely synonymous, poimainein covers a somewhat broader field of meaning.

Boskein is used both literally and figuratively (Ezek 43:2) for feeding animals. Poimainein includes such duties toward the flock as guiding, guarding, and feeding, whether literally (Luke 17:7) or figuratively (Ezek 34:10; Acts 20:28; 1Pet 5:2; Rev 2:27, 7:17); equivalently it may mean "to rule, govern" (2 Sam 7:7; Ps 2:9: Matt 2:6). A sentence from Philo, [Quod deterius VIII # 25], catches the nuance of the two verbs:

"Those who feed [boskein] supply nourishment . . but those who tend [poimainein] have the power of rulers and governors." Combined, the two verbs express the fullness of the pastoral task assigned to Peter.



not from Brown:
[…]* => from an on-line source on Hebrew
 
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aiki

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The thief on the cross saw the greatest act of love in action.

But, as I said, no one gave him food, or clothing, or even a kind, listening ear. He was nailed to a cross and Jesus did nothing to alleviate his immediate pain and suffering. In spite of this, he was still converted.

In Acts, they witnessed the Spirit in action. The Spirit is God and God is love.

But the three thousand who were converted weren't treated to kind, loving deeds before the Gospel was preached to them. No one softened them up with offers of food, or medicine, or clothing. No one offered to meet their physical needs before preaching to them of their spiritual need. And yet, they were all converted. What's more, the apostles were strangers to the crowd to whom they preached. They had no established, loving relationship with those to whom they were sharing the Gospel. This flies in the face of the idea that calling the lost to repentance and telling them of their desperate need of a Saviour must be preceded by loving action. Besides, what is more loving than sharing with the lost the eternal truth of the Gospel? Doing so shows more love than any provision for a person's physical needs. A lost person may be fed today and find themselves hungry tomorrow, but a saved sinner has taken of the Living Water, the Bread of Life, and has been rescued from an eternity in Hell!

I personally do not believe you can divorce meeting needs from sharing the Gospel.

Well, as I pointed out, Scripture doesn't agree with you. I'm not saying Christians can neglect being charitable, mind you, only that the Gospel is necessary to salvation, not the giving of clothing, food, medicine or shelter. Sadly, many believers are keen to do nice things for those in need but they refuse to share with the lost their need of repentance and a Saviour. Believers will congratulate themselves for giving the homeless a meal in the local soup kitchen but never once share with the indigent lost how they might be reconciled to God.

By the way, not wanting to be part of the church industry does not require holding church services in a field. Christians have become just another market to be exploited by the likes of Rick Warren, and Mike Bickles, and Benny Hinn. But they don't have to be. If Christians in the West would wake up and see how the Church has become a marketplace, a collection of religious consumers buying books, and DVDs, and tickets to worship concerts, the Church might begin to turn from its fatal self-absorption and once again shine brightly for Christ in a dark, fallen and dying World. Doing so, however, doesn't require meeting in a field, only reigning in the inordinate expansion of church (small "c") infrastructure that modern believers have mistakenly come to believe is a sign of their success as the Church.

Selah.
 
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Goodbook

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The amount of rubbish so called christian books being sold today is unbelieveable. Most of them self help business/pyschology from america. No you CANNOT use christianity to manipulate people into building your (church) business. Um...

I would clear them all away and just have a whole bookshelf of just 66 books from the Bible.
 
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AlexDTX

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Hello Alex - yes, Peter is not being called "a shepherd", he is being called "to shepherd" - to tend as a shepherd tends - the sheep of the Lord. This verb translation makes a verb from the noun it derives from, "shepherd."

Below is an interesting part of the exegesis of Fr. Ray Brown, a Catholic Biblical scholar. From The Gospel According to John, Raymond E. Brown, S.S., 1970. The Anchor Bible, Doubleday, Garden City NY. vol.2 p. 1104.
(part of exegesis of Jn 21:15-17)

"feed my lambs." In the three instances of Jesus' command to Peter there is a considerable variety of vocabulary:

15: "Feed my lambs" = boskein arnion
16: "Tend my sheep" = poimainein probaton
17: "Feed my little sheep" = boskein probation


As for the verb, in LXX both boskein and poimainein translate Heb. ra’ah [feed (רעה ra'ah, Strong's #7462)]* and so we can be dubious about attempts to find a sharp distinction between them (the Vulgate of 15-17 uses pascere to translate both). Yet, if they are largely synonymous, poimainein covers a somewhat broader field of meaning.

Boskein is used both literally and figuratively (Ezek 43:2) for feeding animals. Poimainein includes such duties toward the flock as guiding, guarding, and feeding, whether literally (Luke 17:7) or figuratively (Ezek 34:10; Acts 20:28; 1Pet 5:2; Rev 2:27, 7:17); equivalently it may mean "to rule, govern" (2 Sam 7:7; Ps 2:9: Matt 2:6). A sentence from Philo, [Quod deterius VIII # 25], catches the nuance of the two verbs:

"Those who feed [boskein] supply nourishment . . but those who tend [poimainein] have the power of rulers and governors." Combined, the two verbs express the fullness of the pastoral task assigned to Peter.



not from Brown:
[…]* => from an on-line source on Hebrew
They work for the Shepherd, but that does not make them shepherds. Jesus called them hirelings and they care not for the flock. Only Jesus cares for the flock.
 
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fide

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They work for the Shepherd, but that does not make them shepherds. Jesus called them hirelings and they care not for the flock. Only Jesus cares for the flock.

I don't know who your "they" are, but those led by the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus the Son, are not "hired men." They participate in His "Good (Beautiful) Shepherding" of the beloved sons and daughters in the Son.

He gives them His love for the flock. You are looking too much to the dark side! He, and Truth, are in the Light.
 
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