Should flag burners lose citizenship?

Do you agree with the president elect's tweet?


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GoldenBoy89

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The tag, "it's art" cannot be used to justify any action to the whim of the offender.
Actually, yeah... You kind of can. Anything can be an artistic expression under the right context and to the right audience.
 
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Chesterton

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GoldenBoy89

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Why are you asking for art to be defined in a thread about flag-burning? Define pizza.
You said flag burning is not art and in most cases, I might agree with that. But you'd be hard pressed to find a definition of art that didn't include self expression as part of that definition. Which, setting a flag on fire can certainly fall under self expression.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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The real question is, why would flag burners WANT to be citizens? If they hate the country so much, they should leave.
Perhaps they already are citizens? Just a thought....

If they were born in the US, where should they go and why would they have to go anywhere to begin with?

I'll never understand the sentiment that people who don't like the US should just leave. That can just as easily be turned around to the people who don't like flag burning. If freedom bothers you so much, maybe you should be the one to leave the "Land O' the Free."
 
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TLK Valentine

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The government prohibits me from expressing myself by punching you in the nose for example.

In certain contexts, this is true -- we call it "assault."

In other contexts:

DSC_3497--1291x855.jpg


Because it's not.

Why not?

Why are you asking for art to be defined in a thread about flag-burning?

Why are you waffling on it?

Define pizza.

A baked round flatbread food, commonly served with tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese.

Now, art, please?
 
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TLK Valentine

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You said flag burning is not art and in most cases, I might agree with that. But you'd be hard pressed to find a definition of art that didn't include self expression as part of that definition. Which, setting a flag on fire can certainly fall under self expression.

So between the right of self-expression and the use of art as a tool for peaceful protest, the definition of "art" very much is relevant.
 
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Chesterton

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In certain contexts, this is true -- we call it "assault."

In other contexts:

Boxing. Wow you'll go to any lengths reaching for a point you can't actually make.

Because in the entire history of humanity, across all cultures of every continent, you probably won't find a single instance of people considering the burning of the American flag as art. If you do find an instance of it, then those people were r-worded [bless and do not curse].
Why are you waffling on it?

What have I waffled on? I said something on page 1 and haven't wavered a bit.
Now, art, please?

Tell my why I should when it's not relevant to the thread. Are you also going to claim that the founding fathers meant to encode "freedom of art" but just forgot to write it down? You already have a definition of speech which is what is actually guaranteed.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Because in the entire history of humanity, across all cultures of every continent, you probably won't find a single instance of people considering the burning of the American flag as art. If you do find an instance of it, then those people were r-worded [bless and do not curse].
Here's one instance of the flag being destroyed artistically by Penn and Teller on television, to make a very specific point. I do hope you have 5 minutes to spare to watch the video and tell me what you think of their point.


There's also this article I found about exactly that bit they did. I found this part to be most relevant.

That’s not to say that the American flag isn’t an important symbol. As Penn Jillette admitted in the clip, the American flag is but a piece of cloth, but one that “is nothing but meaning”. The inherent symbolism of the American flag does represent the country the freedoms we enjoy. Or rather, the freedoms we have left. Regardless, the flag is a symbol which is why burning it is such a meaningful act. It’s also a freedom that’s quite rare compared to nearly every other country in the world that prohibits flag desecration. Only the U.S. and a handful of other states in the Anglosphere protect their citizens’ rights to burn their flags.

In the United States, the right to burn the flag is protected by the 1st Amendment of the Bill of Rights. It is the piece of paper “that means more to us than any other piece of paper in the world”. That amendment disallows the abridgment of speech by the government. That means the government cannot pass a law that would prohibit the people from burning the American flag for example. Therefore, when Penn and Teller burned an American flag in the White House it was their Constitutionally protected right to do so.

Furthermore, just because Penn and Teller burned an American flag does not mean they did it maliciously. They performed that trick on West Wing “in celebration of the very freedoms that allow us to burn a flag”. Even though others might burn the flag specifically to protest the government, that does not make their act any less of a celebration of their rights.

As Penn Jillette says after he burned the American flag “even though the flag is gone, the Bill of Rights remains”. Those that seek to outlaw flag burning should appreciate that message and reconsider their reasoning.


Tell my why I should when it's not relevant to the thread. Are you also going to claim that the founding fathers meant to encode "freedom of art" but just forgot to write it down? You already have a definition of speech which is what is actually guaranteed.
Art is speech. Art is expression and expression cannot be limited by the government unless it starts to cut into the rights of others. That's not something I made up, there is legal precedent from our country's highest court's interpretation of our founding documents to back up that opinion.

It is absolutely relevant to the point of this this thread but I can see why you'd rather avoid that aspect of it since it defeats your argument.
 
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wing2000

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Kind of hilarious we've been baited into spending several days talking about flag burning, something very few people ever even talked about before Monday, instead of the other issues going on.

Trump would be satisfied :)
 
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TLK Valentine

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Boxing. Wow you'll go to any lengths reaching for a point you can't actually make.

What -- it's people punching each other in the nose... perfectly legal.

Because in the entire history of humanity, across all cultures of every continent, you probably won't find a single instance of people considering the burning of the American flag as art. If you do find an instance of it, then those people were r-worded [bless and do not curse].

Interesting excuse you've got there -- it never happened, but if it did, it doesn't count because the people who did were.... what? say it.

What have I waffled on? I said something on page 1 and haven't wavered a bit.

Definition of art.

Tell my why I should when it's not relevant to the thread. Are you also going to claim that the founding fathers meant to encode "freedom of art" but just forgot to write it down? You already have a definition of speech which is what is actually guaranteed.

So art is not protected by your definition of the First Amendment? The government can censor art if it chooses to, according to you?

believe that, and flag burning is the least of your problems.
 
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Gene2memE

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I expect to see more and more of these outrageous Tweets by Mr Trump, as a distraction tactic. It worked through the election campaign, and its only by diligence and careful scrutiny that the US public will be able to look past this confidence style trickery over the next four years.

An interesting video:


Why is this thread 35 or 40 pages long?
Where are the 30+ page threads on his sprawling business empire, involving his children and wife in initial meetings in his role as president-elect, the bizarre and unsuitable choices he's made for secretary positions?

Distract, misdirect, dissemble and divert.
 
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Chesterton

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Here's one instance of the flag being destroyed artistically by Penn and Teller on television, to make a very specific point. I do hope you have 5 minutes to spare to watch the video and tell me what you think of their point.

I looked up Penn & Teller on Wiki, it says they're a magic act. Doesn't say they're artists. No one in the video claimed what they did was art.
Art is speech. Art is expression and expression cannot be limited by the government unless it starts to cut into the rights of others. That's not something I made up, there is legal precedent from our country's highest court's interpretation of our founding documents to back up that opinion.

It is absolutely relevant to the point of this this thread but I can see why you'd rather avoid that aspect of it since it defeats your argument.
Here's the definition the framers would have known, from an 1828 Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language:

SPEECH, noun

1. The faculty of uttering articulate sounds or words, as in human beings; the faculty of expressing thoughts by words or articulate sounds. speech was given to man by his Creator for the noblest purposes.

2. Language; words as expressing ideas. The acts of God to human ears cannot without process of speech be told.

3. A particular language, as distinct form others. Psalms 19:2.

4. That which is spoken; words uttered in connection and expressing thoughts. You smile at my speech

5. Talk; mention; common saying. The duke did of me demand, what was the speech among the londoners concerning the French journey.

6. Formal discourse in public; oration; harangue. The member has made his first speech in the legislature.​


What -- it's people punching each other in the nose... perfectly legal.
It's as if I said "it's illegal to print money" and you respond "but the U.S. Mint does it". Whatever.
Interesting excuse you've got there -- it never happened, but if it did, it doesn't count because the people who did were.... what? say it.
There's at least one mod that doesn't care for the word, but the people would be "slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development" -Webster's New Collegiate
Definition of art.
Regarding art I haven't said anything to waffle about, in spite of the fact that you are desperately wanting to discuss art in a thread about flag-burning. :D
So art is not protected by your definition of the First Amendment? The government can censor art if it chooses to, according to you?

believe that, and flag burning is the least of your problems.

I said no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.
 
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Desk trauma

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I looked up Penn & Teller on Wiki, it says they're a magic act. Doesn't say they're artists. No one in the video claimed what they did was art.

Both of them would do so very vehemently if questioned as they both have given a great deal of thought to the nature of art and speak frequently about it.
 
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variant

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The tag, "it's art" cannot be used to justify any action to the whim of the offender.

It could, but in a free country you need a good reason to make something illegal, not a good reason to have things be legal.

Flag burning may or may not be art but it is certainly protest/dissent, and protest/dissent is the core idea of the first amendment.
 
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Chesterton

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Both of them would do so very vehemently if questioned as they both have given a great deal of thought to the nature of art and speak frequently about it.
I've thought and spoken about art myself, doesn't make me an artist. But okay, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. After all I'm sure Las Vegas is second only to Renaissance Italy when it comes to great artistic achievement.
 
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