But how can anyone who has come to Christ in faith and been given the Holy Spirit, God Himself be someone Christ never knew? I mean using your logic it can be said that no Christian knows Christ. Also God's Word says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Isn't grace and salvation a gift? And can a gift be lost?Not if you read all the New testament it isnt. We are commanded to do certain things all throughout and it says that those who love me will obey me. What about those that dont, I think there is a place where it talks about outer darkness for thiose that Jesus says He never knew. Today there are to many that profess to be Christian yet have no personal relationship with Jesus. Most clainm that God doesnt speak, that they dont hear. If you cant hear then how can you be led?
I agree with everything you said except this idea that there are two kinds of faith, one that saves and one that does not.Hi Rasmus2, I'm not sure what "Paul's Gospel" is, but here's a few things that Jesus has to say about this subject:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. ~John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~John 3
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ~John 5
31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name. ~John 20
Taylor and Ed are both correct. Please take note of the Calvin quote in my signature line below (which is simply James 2:24 stated somewhat differently). It is a frightening thing to be sure, but as Ed mentioned, there is a kind of faith which does not save (i.e. James 2:19; Matthew 7:22-23).
We are "saved" or "justified" by God at a moment in time (i.e. John 5:24), but if there is no perceivable change in the person claiming to have become a Christian (IOW, if they continue on in the sinful lifestyle they were leading prior to making that claim .. or if they quickly return to it), then it is a sure bet that their "claim" is nothing more than that
We are (as Taylor already mentioned) saved by grace alone, through faith alone, APART from works of any kind (Ephesians 2:8-9), but Ephesians 2:10 then tells us that we were saved for the purpose of doing good works Just to be perfectly clear, good works, holy living, and the desire to obey and please God are the RESULT of being saved, NOT the cause!
If we have truly been "born again" (John 3:3) we will, as a result, come to SAVING faith "in Christ" (IOW, there is also a kind of faith that "saves" .. which involves "trust"). The evidence for saving faith (how our "claim" of being a Christian is justified/demonstrated .. to others AND to ourselves), can only be seen in how we live, and by what we do, say and think.
I was baptized as an infant and was confirmed and raised in the church. Because of that, I never doubted that I was a Christian, that is, until I actually became one at age 30. That's when EVERYTHING changed. He made me into a completely "new creature" in His Son (2 Corinthians 5:17) and my life reflected that change (and it still does 30 years later I am happy to report ).
From the moment I first believed, the desire to "please" God became the central focus of my daily life (perhaps because I realized how much I had displeased Him up until that point), and it has remained the central focus of my life ever since. Don't get me wrong, I fail miserably at pleasing Him at times because, while I am saved, I remain a fallen being The good news is, God loves me and still forgives me when I do sin (1 John 1:9).
BTW, I have found this trait (the overwhelming desire to please God in all we do, say, and think) to be perhaps the most common trait of all among true Christians, so I certainly believe that it should be one of the "tests" that determines whether or not one is in the faith (i.e. 2 Corinthians 13:5).
Yours in Christ,
David
The New Covenant between each one of us and God, through faith is sealed with the Holy Spirit. That is the seal of the New Covenant and God's Word has never spoken about removing the indwelling Holy Spirit from any New Covenant person. The Holy Spirit is the down payment, per se on our inheritance in Jesus Christ as co-heirs of the FatherSorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)
And are we to trust Paul's gospel?
Is salvation permanent?
I agree with everything you said except this idea that there are two kinds of faith, one that saves and one that does not.
Christ says 'by faith'. So there can not be two types of faith. There can only be those with faith and without faith.
Jesus will make the determination who has exhibited true faith and belief in Him and who He never knew, but I don't think we can define that as two different types of faith. Unless you have verses that say otherwise.
Besides that, great post.
I hope that explains it. If not, just let me know and I'll try again14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? ~James 2
Believing alone, will not keep you saved. It is up to us whether or not salvation is permanent.
Hi AK, the Lord is clear that once someone is truly saved/has come to possess "saving faith", they will never be lost. For instance:
37 “ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. ~John 6
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ~John 10
John 5:24 indicates that Christians come into possession of "eternal* life" from the moment we first believe. And the Lord goes on to qualify that statement by telling us that we will not be "condemned" (or even stand) in the "Judgment" (Great White Throne) with the reprobate, because we have ALREADY "passed from death to life"
*Please note that αἰώνιος [aionios] ALWAYS means "eternal", "everlasting", "once and forever", "never ceasing", "without beginning", "without end", etc. (it never means "probationary" or "temporal" life ).None of the "good works/holy living" we do can save us, nor can the doing of these things keep us saved, but if such things do no characterize the life of someone who claims to be a believer, then chances are very good that they never became a believer to begin with.
Yours and His,
David
"He is able also to save forever those who draw near
to God through Him, since He always lives
to make intercession for them"
Hebrews 7:25
But how can anyone who has come to Christ in faith and been given the Holy Spirit, God Himself be someone Christ never knew? I mean using your logic it can be said that no Christian knows Christ. Also God's Word says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Isn't grace and salvation a gift? And can a gift be lost?
I NEVER knew you, that's what it says. NEVER.
How does that make sense?
Sorry for creating a duplicated thread (I need a quick answer)
And are we to trust Paul's gospel?
Is salvation permanent?