The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

parousia70

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With Adam, and will continue until Christ returns to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.

Can you cite any scripture that teaches this, or is this just your opinion?
And again, Tell us when Matthew 21:33-45 happened please.
 
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parousia70

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Yes. Scott Hahn is one of my favorite authors, and one of his books, ("The Lamb's Supper") is actually instrumental in my Christian conversion.

He has an audio series called "The End" where he does an exhaustive, verse by verse commentary of the Revelation, which was instrumental in MY Christian conversion, as well as my acceptance of the truth of past fulfillment of Biblical eschatology.
 
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34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36


Do people still die?


Case Closed.

After the resurrection of the dead in Christ, we will have bodies that will never die.


Preterism is Heresy.

Those who teach Heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




JLB

Kingdom of God in heaven JLB. The Kingdom of God on earth is represented by the Church.
 
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Will the second coming of Christ entail a 5'5"-7" Jewish man (common male height of the time) appearing in the skies above Jerusalem that every man, woman, and child will witness across the whole globe in every city and village?

Or did Jesus mean something else? How long did the disciples stare stedfastly into the clouds and empty skies in Acts 1:10? 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour or longer? The text only states stedfastly.

Please remember that Jesus ministered on earth during the Last Days - Hebrews 1:2; 1 Peter 1:20

And He shed His blood and died for us on earth at the End of the Age - Hebrews 9:26

Were these the Last Days of the material universe? Or the Last Days of the Mosaic Covenant? Was this at the end of the world? Or the end of the Jewish Age?

Have the Last Days run for nearly 2,000 years now? Has the End of the Age run for nearly 2,000 years now?

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

Seeing the Son of Man

Those who pierced Jesus lived in the first century. This helps explain Revelation 1:7 where the same wording is used. Those who "see" Him are "those who pierced Him" (cf John 19:7). John is telling us that those who pierced Jesus experienced His covenant wrath. Revelation 1:7 must refer to a pre-A.D. 70 fulfillment, before that generation passed away (Matthew 16:27-28; 24:34).

"Every eye, and those who pierced Him, shall see him" - The subject of the text is "the people of the land," viz. Judea; and it would be a direct misinterpretation, as well as false logic, to strain a term beyond its subject, by applying it to the final judgment of all. That all men shall see Him, we learn from other scriptures (2 Cor. V. 10); [the partial preterist writer of this piece has misinterpreted himself - see Hebrews 9:27] but we must deal faithfully with the text, and not force any word in order to make out a case. Truth never requires this. That the land of Judea, in the prophetic sense, is the subject, is evident from Zech. XII. 10; from which the words are taken, both here and in John XIX. 37.


"Those who pierced Him" are obviously those who had a hand in His death. The text declares that they shall see Him, employing for seeing the verb optomai, already noticed, as not limited to ocular seeing. Though those who pierced Him saw not His person after ascension, yet they saw His power bringing judgment on them, and making His cause prevail inspite of their persecution, and they speedily saw their kingdom terminated.

James Glasgow (1872)

Equating "seeing" with "understanding" is a common Biblical metaphor. In John 12:40 Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:10 to explain why some have not believed His message. Notice how "seeing" is equivalent to "understanding."

"Render the hearts of the people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, lest they see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and repent and be healed." Isaiah 6:10

In quoting Isaiah, Jesus states Yahweh "has blinded their eyes" (John 12:40). This is not a physical blinding. The blinding is spiritual. To be blind is not to understand; to see is to understand and believe. "To open their eyes" is an expression used by Biblical writers to describe recognition and understanding (Acts of the Apostles 26:18 cf 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 8:52; 2 Kings 2:16; 2 Kings 6:20; 2 Kings 19:16; Isaiah 35:5; Isaiah 42:7; Isaiah 42:16). The eyes of the disciples "were opened" by Jesus and "they recognized Him." (Luke 24:31) is another example of equating "seeing" with "understanding." David Chilton summarizes the text for us: "The crucifiers would see Him coming in judgment - that is, they would understand that His coming would mean wrath on the land (cf the use of the word "see" in Mark 1:44; Luke 17:22; John 3:36; Romans 15:21)."

David Chilton, Days of Vengeance

"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky, to the other." Matthew 24:31

Immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem, God began to shake down the world (Matthew 24:29). The nations began to recognize Christ as King (24:30). In context, in verse 31 does not refer to the end of the world. Rather, it speaks of the spread of the Gospel in the nations.
 
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The Importance Of the Typology of the Day Of Atonement In Relation To The Second Coming Of Christ And The Resurrection

The fall of Jerusalem and demise of the Old Covenant Temple system in A.D. 70 was no localized judgment event as some suggest, just as the cross was no localized execution event. Yet fewer people knew of Jesus' crucifixion than the destruction of the city. Jesus coming in judgment in A.D. 70 was his appearing "a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him" (Heb. 9:28) and "the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:5)." If He did not appear "a second time," we have a major problem on our hands.



Curiously; the Bible records that Jesus had already come and appeared many times following both his resurrection and ascension. Then what did this phrase appearing "a second time" mean? To understand this terminology, we must refer to the typology of the Jewish high priest, a figure central to Israel's existence. He was their connection to and mediator with God. Once each year on the Day of Atonement (the annual, sixth Jewish feast as prescribed by the Law), the high priest performed his most sacred duty (Lev. 16). He put on his finery, sacrificed a bull, put its blood in a bowl, tied a rope around his leg, entered into the Holy of Holies, sprinkled the blood on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant, and made atonement for himself and his house. Then he came out and appeared before the crowd gathered in front of the Tabernacle (later the Temple), killed a goat, took its blood into the Holy of Holies, made atonement for the congregation. Lastly, a second goat - the scapegoat - was released into the wilderness. Time spent by the high priest inside the Holy of Holies was a fearful time for the assembled crowd. But his second reappearance, alive, was the most-awaited and joyful part of the whole ritual. It completed the atonement process and revealed that both sacrifices had been accepted by God and that Israel's sins were forgiven for another year.



Jesus Christ, as our new and superior High Priest of the New Covenant (Heb. 4-10), had to perfectly follow and fulfill this typology (Heb. 8:5; 10:1). The Bible tells us that the earthly Jewish Temple was only a copy of the heavenly one (Heb. 9,10, especially 9:23ff.). That's why Jesus had to depart and go prepare the heavenly place for his saints to occupy; He did this by going through these same atonement steps (Jn. 14:1-4). Therefore, after Jesus ascended to the Father; He entered the true Holy of Holies and offered up the perfect sacrifice of his spilled blood. But just as the atonement ritual of the Old Covenant was never considered complete with only the slaying of the sacrifice, neither was Jesus' atonement work finished at the cross, or even when He entered into the Holy of Holies. Partway through is not the place to abandon this atonement typology, as most do. In order for Jesus to perfectly fulfill the final, inseparable, and essential act of atonement: to appear "a second time" to show that his sacrificed had been accepted, and to fulfill the role of both goats - one dead, one alive.



If this final step has yet to occur, as all futurist schemes claim, we are faced with some big problems! If Jesus did not appear a second time, we must live with the following unpalatable facts:



1. 1st-century believers watched, waited and eagerly expected in vain (1 Pet. 1:5-9; 2:12; Heb. 9:28; 10:25; Lk. 21:28; Php. 3:20; Gal. 5:5; Ro. 13:11-13; 1 Cor. 1:7; Tit. 2:11-13).



2. Their salvation and ours is still incomplete. If no final sign or proof of atonement has been manifested from heaven, we cannot know if Jesus' sacrifice has yet been accepted by God.



3. We can't know for sure if our sins are fully forgiven, if we are totally reconciled to God, if we are back in His presence (where no one had been since Adam), or were we to die tonight, if we would immediately go to heaven (Jn. 3:13; 13:33,36; 14:1-4).



Jesus appearing "a second time" is essential for complete salvation. This is the climax of the whole salvation event. It's where salvation and end-time prophecy (soteriology and eschatology) are inseparably intertwined. It's why eschatology is the story of one salvation in Christ. If this "salvation that is [was] ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:5) hasn't occurred in almost 2,000 years, all we can be sure of is that we have the promise of salvation. But if that's all we have, how is the New Covenant any better than the Old in this important regard? If it doesn't supply what the Old could not provide, where are we? How much salvation do we presently have? How much of Christ's mission to "put away sin" is accomplished? Are we still in limbo (an intermediate state) and not yet in God's Presence?



Please note that any doctrine which says that Jesus has not returned and fulfilled salvation promises to Israel is actually saying that we don't have full redemption (1 Pet. 1:9-13; Ac. 3:24; 26:6-8; Eph. 4:4). There's no way around it. As our High Priest, Jesus had to carefully follow and fulfill all aspects of the sacrificial and atonement typology of the high priesthood pattern on the Day of Atonement. This is the crucial factor and meaning behind his appearing "a second time," and that is what was being "eagerly awaited" by the early Church (Gal. 5:5), as they saw "the Day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).



The good news is that postponement traditions are wrong. There was no 19th-plus-centuries-and-counting delay. The atonement process was not interrupted. God's redemptive plan was fulfilled by Christ's appearing "a second time." As our High Priest, He did his atoning work during those "last days." He has been "revealed from heaven" (2 Th. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:7; Lk. 17:30,31). The sixth Jewish feast of the Day of Atonement is totally fulfilled. Jesus was and is "able to save completely" or "to the utmost" (Heb. 7:25, KJV). The next question is, how did He appear?



He appeared by "coming on the clouds" in A.D. 70. This invisible nature of that particular type of coming was why a "sign" was needed and was asked for by His disciples (Mt. 24:3,30). As we've seen, Jesus clearly and inseparably designated the destruction of Jerusaleme and its Temple as the sign of His coming. He said, "Immediately, after the distress [tribulation] of those days... the sign of the Son of Man will appear..." (Mat. 24:29-30). Immediately after the four sieges of A.D. 66 - 70, the sign appeared. In the final destructive event(s), His Presence was manifested and He was truly revealed as the Son of God. This sign also signaled God's acceptance of Christ's atonement (Heb. 7:25) and that the way into the Most Holy Place was now open (Heb. 9:8). By this sign we can be sure that Jesus completed everything for our salvation into the generation He named "this generation" (Mt. 24:34). Jesus said, "When you [His audience] see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near... When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near" (Lk. 21:20,28). No longer do we need to look for Jerusalem to be surrounded by armies. No longer are we living in that waiting period.



Confusion over this eschatological-soteriological issue only comes when we don't understand that the destruction of Jerusalem had redemptive/spiritual significance. If we lift the salvation process out of its "last-days" context at the end of the Jewish Age and shift it to an alleged end of a Christian Age, we have confused the very roots of our faith. No scriptural basis exists for removing Christ's appearing a second time from the end-time, last-days framework in history in which his sacrifice occurred - "once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin" (Heb. 1:2; 9:26). God fully dealt with man's sin problem; it is not incomplete. It has been fully resolved.



When Jesus said, "One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all is fulfilled," or "everything is accomplished" (Mt. 5:18, KJV-NIV), He meant exactly what He said. He came again to do just what He said He would (Mt. 5:17). Who among us would question that a large segment (not a mere jot or tittle) was passing and did pass away from the Law back in the 1st century (Heb. 8:13; 12:26-28; 1 Cor. 7:13)? The Temple, rituals, genealogies, feasts, the sacrificial system, priesthood, and all they typified are totally fulfilled. They were necessary; but only temporarily. Nothing failed to come to pass. That's why "salvation is of the Jews" and their Age (Jn. 4:22 KJV), not of the Gentiles or of an intervening Christian Age.



Why then are we still waiting for Jesus to be revealed after almost 2,000 years? Whom should we believe, Jesus, or our postponing, futurist brethren? I believe Jesus. How could He be any clearer? Everything is accomplished. The typology is complete. The destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple was the sign of the final event in the consummation of God's plan of redemption. Let us recognize and loudly proclaim that we have received the goal/end/telos of our faith, the ultimate and consummated realization of the promise of the salvation of our souls (1 Pet. 1:9). The message is one of fulfilled redemption and completed salvation. What more could we ask for?




John Noe, Beyond The End Times

Futurists and Partial Preterists... I challenge you to read this article. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
 
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JLB777

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Kingdom of God in heaven JLB. The Kingdom of God on earth is represented by the Church.

Those who practice teaching heresy, will not inherit the Kingdom of God: which is a reference to being cast into hell with the devil and his angels.

That is what "will not inherit the kingdom" of God means.

Preterism is Heresy.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Can you cite any scripture that teaches this, or is this just your opinion?
And again, Tell us when Matthew 21:33-45 happened please.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


As long as people marry, and they still die, it is called "this age".

The age to come, or "that age" is defined by those who attain to the resurrection of the dead, who neither marry nor do they die.

These who attain the resurrection of the dead, are called sons of God and have become equal to the angels... being sons of the resurrection.

Do people still die here on earth?
Do people still marry here on earth?

The answer to both is yes.

It is still called "this age", and will continue to be called "this age" until the coming of the Lord and the resurrection/rapture.



JLB
 
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Here is more from Don K Preston:


Seventy Weeks Are Determined... To Make An Atonement For Sin
There is no disagreement, in conservative commentaries, that this promise in Daniel 9 is referent to the atoning work of Jesus Christ. The tragedy is that the great majority of commentaries stop the atoning process at the Cross, whereas Scriptures posits the consummation of the atonement at the parousia of Christ. Gentry says of the promise to make an atonement for sin, "It clearly speaks of Christ's atoning death, which is the ultimate atonement to which all the temple rituals looked (Hebrews 9:26). This also occurred during his earthly ministry-at his death." (Dominion, 315). Mathison likewise argues: "This was fulfilled in Christ's atoning death." (Hope, 221).

Gentry is correct to say that Christ's atoning death is what all the temple rituals anticipated and foreshadowed. Furthermore, Christ's high priestly function, in offering himself as a sacrifice, is also pointed to those Old Covenant rituals. It is here that the partial preterists and all futurists abandon the text.

Notice the chart that shows the direct type/anti-type relationship between Jesus in his High Priestly service, and that of the Old Covenant High Priest on the Day of Atonement:

1.

O.T. HIGH PRIEST ON DAY OF ATONEMENT
CHRIST, HIGH PRIEST TO MAKE ATONEMENT


2.
PRIEST KILLED THE SACRIFICE
CHRIST APPEARED TO "PUT AWAY SIN" BY HIS SACRIFICE (HEBREWS 9:26)

3.

PRIEST ENTERED THE MOST HOLY PLACE
"CHRIST ENTERED THE HOLY PLACE" (HEBREWS 9:24)

4.

RETURN OF THE HIGH PRIEST FROM MHP FINISHED ATONEMENT & DECLARED SALVATION
TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY LOOK FOR HIM, HE SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, FOR SALVATION (HEBREWS 9:28)

It will be noted that after describing these actions by Christ, so perfectly picturing the Old Covenant Day of Atonement, that the writer of Hebrews says Christ would appear a second time... "for the law, having a shadow of good things to come, can never by those sacrifices which they make year by year continually, perfect" (Hebrews 10:1). In other words, the Old Law and its typological functions were a shadow, and Christ in High Priestly function was the fulfillment. Just as the High Priest killed the sacrifice, entered the Most Holy Place, and came back out, Jesus offered himself, and entered the Most Holy Place, and was set to appear "a second time, for salvation" for, the law was a shadow of good things about to come. It was necessary for the fulfillment of the Old Covenantal liturgical cultus that Christ fulfill every aspect of the High Priest's Atoning function, and that included the coming out of the Most Holy Place to declare the atonement accepted! Simply stated, if the High Priest did not come back out of the Most Holy Place, there was no atonement.

However, virtually all futurist paradigms say the atonement was finished at the Cross. This in spite of the fact that Christ's Priestly function demanded he enter the Most Holy Place, just as the Old Covenant High Priest had to enter MHP.

Was the atonement completed before Christ even offered his blood in the Most Holy Place? Hebrews 9:24 says he entered there to appear "in the presence of God for us." Just like the High Priest under the Old Covenant had to enter the Most Holy to appear in the Presence of God on the behalf of Israel, and offer the sacrifice, Jesus entered the Most Holy Place there to offer his blood.
The idea that the atonement was finished at the Cross also overlooks the fact that, just like the Old Covenant High Priest, Jesus had to return from the Most Holy Place before the atonement was finished. This leads to the following argument:

The atonement work of Christ would be perfected and consummated at his "Second Coming" (Hebrews 9:28).

But the Second Coming is the time of the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15).

Therefore, the atonement work of Christ would be perfected and consummated at the resurrection of the dead. The atonement work of Christ would be perfected at the resurrection of the dead.

But the seventy weeks were determined to make the atonement (Daniel 9:24).

Therefore, the resurrection of the dead, at the perfection of the atonement work of Jesus, would occur within, or by the end of, the seventy weeks.

Don K Preston
 
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Those who practice teaching heresy, will not inherit the Kingdom of God: which is a reference to being cast into hell with the devil and his angels.

That is what "will not inherit the kingdom" of God means.

Preterism is Heresy.



JLB


When did the angel tell Daniel all things would be finished including the resurrection in Daniel 12:7?

When did Jesus say all things would be fulfilled in Matthew 24:34 and Luke 21:22 & Luke 21:32?

When did Jesus say His Coming would be in Matthew 16:27-28?
 
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Here is more from Don K Preston:

The question of course is, how the majority of Christian believers can affirm the present reality of forgiveness, and yet deny that Christ has consummated the atonement process through his parousia. This is a huge issue!



The bottom line is that you cannot, consistently and logically, affirm that forgiveness is a reality now, in Christ, and yet, affirm that the believer does not enter the Most Holy Place. You cannot affirm the reality of forgiveness and deny the reality of the parousia. You cannot affirm that the faithful child of God must go to Hades and await judgment, without thereby affirming that the Mosaic Covenant, with its animal sacrifices, remains valid and binding today.



On the other hand, what does it mean to affirm that the faithful child of God does enter the Most Holy when they die? Well, it certainly means that the atonement is completed, that man is genuinely forgiven, and that there is nothing to keep man from the presence of God. It affirms that everything that the old world symbolized and prophesied has now become a reality. The High Priest's work is finished. The atonement is finished, and man can now enter into its benefits.



However, if the atonement is completed, and man can enter the Most Holy Place, then this demands that Christ's coming, the second time, "apart from sin, for salvation" has occurred. Remember, the atonement was not completed until the High Priest came out of the MHP and signified the acceptance of the atonement sacrifice.



To help see the relationship between the end of the Old Covenant Age, the consummation of the atonement, and the relationship with the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel, we need to take a closer look at the idea of entering the Most Holy Place.



As we have seen, in Hebrews 9, the writer posits the access and entrance into the Most Holy Place at the end of the Mosaic world, when all that it typified and foreshadowed was fulfilled, i.e. at the time of reformation. So, the time when all that the Old Covenant anticipated, the realization of Israel's eschatological and soteriological hopes, would be when the system that stood only in animal sacrifices, carnal washings and ordinances, reached its terminus through fulfillment. In other words, the time of reformation - when man could enter the MHP - would come at the end of the Mosaic Covenant world! This is not only time we find this motif.



In Luke 21, Jesus predicted the fall of Jerusalem (v. 7f). He tells the disciples that when they see Jerusalem surrounded they are to know her desolation is nigh (v. 20-24). He describes the fall of Jerusalem, "These be the days of vengeance, in which all things that are written must be fulfilled" (v. 22). Jerusalem's fall would be the consummation of God's vengeance. Furthermore, in the events of those days, they were to "look up, for your redemption draws nigh," and to know that the kingdom of heaven had drawn near (Luke 21:28-31). Thus, in the destruction of the temple and removal of the cultus, the saints were to see the fulfillment of all things that are written, the coming of their redemption, and the arrival of the kingdom!



Note also that in Revelation 15, John sees a vision of the temple in heaven, and remarkably, the veil is gone, and the Most Holy Place is open (Revelation 11:19; 15:8)! This signified that man could now approach God - but there was a problem. No man could actually enter the Most Holy Place until, "the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed" (15:8). Man could not enter the Most Holy Place until the wrath of God was consummated, and God's wrath would be completed when judgment fell on Babylon (Revelation 16:17f). Therefore access to God would be opened when God's vengeance was completed against Babylon.




We cannot develop this at length here, but suffice it to say that Babylon of Revelation was none other than Old Covenant Jerusalem. It is the great city, where the Lord was slain (Revelation 11:8), the city that killed the prophets (16:6f), and the city guilty of shedding the blood of the apostles and prophets (18:20-24), and all the blood shed on the earth. Compare Jesus' words in Luke 11:49f and Luke 13:33f.



So, here is what have in Revelation.



John saw the Most Holy Place open, but no man could enter until God's wrath was completed in the outpouring of the Seventh Vial.



But, God's wrath would be finished in the outpouring of wrath against Babylon (Revelation 16:17f).



Babylon was Old Covenant Jerusalem.



Therefore, entrance into the Most Holy Place would be opened when God's wrath was completed in the judgment of Old Covenant Jerusalem.





The chart will help visualize the comparision of Luke 21, Hebrews, and Revelation, and the concept of entering the MHP.



1.



Luke 21 Fall of Jerusalem (v. 20f)



Hebrews 9-10 End of Old Covenant System (v.6)



Revelation 15-19 Judgment on Babylon (16:7f) (Jerusalem)



2.



Luke 21 Days of Vengeance fulfilled (v. 22)



Hebrews 9-10 Time of Vengeance (10:26-37)



Revelation 15-19 Completion of God's Wrath (15:8; 16:7f)



3.



Luke 21 Coming of Redemption, Kingdom (v. 28, 32)



Hebrews 9-10 Entrance into Most Holy Place (9:6f)



Revelation 15-19 Entrance into Most Holy Place (15:1,8)



4.



Luke 21 At Coming of the Lord (v. 26f)



Hebrews 9-10 At Coming of the Lord (10:37)



Revelation 15-19 At Coming of the Lord (chapter 19)



5.



Luke 21 In Jesus' generation (v. 32)



Hebrews 9-10 In a very, very little while (10:37)



Revelation 15-19 "Behold I come quickly" (22:12,20)



In Luke, the judgment against Jerusalem would fulfill God's vengeance, and bring redemption. Hebrews (10:26-37) depicts the removal of the Old Covenant system, (at the time of Christ's coming in judgment), as opening the way to the Most Holy Place . In Revelation, God's wrath is consummated in the judgment against Babylon, resulting in access to the Most Holy Place! The parallels positively demonstrate that the time when entrance into the Most Holy Place would be opened was at the end of the Mosaic Covenant world, with the removal of the City and the Temple.



Daniel 9 said that "seventy weeks are determined for your people, and for your holy city, and the end of that vision would bring the atonement, the putting away of sin, and the arrival of everlasting righteousness. It would bring in the realization of the hopes of Israel. But, the end thereof would be with an overwhelming flood. The arrival of the new world of righteousness would signal the end of the old world of sin, death, and futility. Or as Eusebius stated it, "It is quite clear that the seven times seventy weeks ... was therefore the period determined for Daniel's people, which limited the total length of the Jewish nation's existence."



Unless Luke, Hebrews and Revelation were anticipating the arrival of a totally different salvation fulfillment of Israel's promises, then we must see that their referent to "the time of reformation," the time of redemption and the kingdom (Luke 21), and the time when man could enter the Most Holy Place (Revelation), as the same identical time. All three of them posit the arrival of these blessings as the parousia of Christ, as the chart shows. Those blessings would arrive at the time of the parousia- and thus the resurrection.



So, if they were in fact anticipating the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, that meant that Daniel's seventy weeks were not completed previously, but that they would be filled up at the cataclysmic removal of the cultus that had stood as a barrier to man for 1,500 years. And, this means, without doubt, that the parousia and resurrection belong inseparably to the coming of Christ at the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9, when Christ came and brought that old system to an end in the "overwhelming flood" of destruction of A.D. 70.



Finally, the millennialists have a severe problem in regard to their fundamentally important gap theory, the making of the atonement, and the death of Jesus. There is no question that Daniel was told "seventy weeks are determined, to make atonement for sin." As we have seen, this involves not the subjective appropriation of the atonement, but the objective process of making atonement. Boutflower well notes that the Hebrew word that is translated here in Daniel 9, is the identical word, "that occurs so frequently in the Book of Leviticus." (Daniel, 183). His point is that the making of atonement does not refer to an event divorced from the process of atonement. It is in fact the process of making the atonement that is the focus. In other words, it involved Christ fulfilling the typological high priestly atonement practices! That means his death, the offering of the his blood in the MHP, and his parousia. But, this is where the difficulty comes in.



The millennialists tells us the death of Jesus does not belong to the seventy weeks of Daniel 9! They point out, correctly so, that the death of Jesus would be after the 69th week, and while that would seem to demand that his death occurred in the pivotal 70th week, it is insisted that the death of Jesus actually postponed the prophetic countdown! Thus, Jesus' death, which is for the atonement, does not, per the millennialists, belong to the seventy weeks at all! Exactly how the atoning death of Jesus does not actually belong to the seventy week countdown the millennialists do not explain. Indeed, some even argue that the words "make reconciliation for iniquity," "seems to be rather clear picture of the cross of Christ in which Christ reconciled Israel as well as the world to himself (2 Cor. 5:19)." However, Walvoord and other millennialists insist the application of what Christ did on the Cross still awaits the parousia, and so, it is argued, the consummation of the seventy weeks has been postponed.


Don K Preston

Isn't the eschatological and soteriological study of the Day of Atonement and its fulfillment in Christ absolutely fascinating and absorbing from a covenant eschatology stand point? There is way too much scriptural harmony in it all. It harmonizes all scripture!
 
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DANIEL 9 AND HEBREWS 9 COMPARISION BY DON K PRESTON

It is hoped that the reader will have noted by now how directly Daniel 9 and Hebrews 9 are related. We have waited until after our discussion of putting away sin, the atonement, and the sealing of vision and prophecy to offer this summary, in order that the reader can catch the full force of the relationship of Daniel and Hebrews.

It can justifiably be argued that five of the six elements foretold by Daniel 9:24 are to be found in Hebrews 9.

1.) The putting away of sin

2.) The making of atonement

3.) The sealing of vision and prophecy. This is true because Hebrews 9 anticipated the consummation of the typological / prophetic nature of Israel's cultus, and that would be when the new order of Messiah arrived, i.e. the time of reformation (diorthosis). Thus, to "seal up vision and prophecy" anticipated the fulfillment of Israel's hopes, and Hebrews 9 anticipated the fulfillment of Israel's hopes.

4.) The bringing in of everlasting righteousness. Would not the putting away of sin, and the making of the atonement, in Hebrews 9, result in the bringing in of everlasting righteousness?

5.) The anointing of the Most Holy. This can be viewed as Christ's parousia to dedicate the new Most Holy, i.e. the presence of God in the New Jerusalem.

So, in one text, Hebrews 9 brings together virtually all the eschatological and soteriological hopes of Israel, and posits them at the time of Christ's fulfillment of the high priestly atonement praxis.

What should not be missed is that, as we have continually noted, not one of these elements can be divorced from or extrapolated beyond the seventy week countdown. Everyone of them belongs within the confines of that divinely appointed countdown. In addition, let me re-emphasize the fact that virtually everyone acknowledges that Daniel 9 is focused on the consummation of God's dealings with Old Covenant Israel, and not the end of the Christian age, or the end of time. So what does that mean when we come to Hebrews 9?

Hebrews 9 was anticipating the future, to him, parousia of Christ out of the Most Holy Place, to perfect the putting away of sin, to complete the atonement, through the fulfillment of Israel's prophecies, and thus bring in everlasting righteousness in the new "Most Holy." Since those things were still future when the author of Hebrews wrote, it cannot be argued that the seventy weeks had already been fulfilled.

Notice something else here. If the blessings of Daniel 9 are the blessing of Hebrews 9, then we have a prima facie demonstration that the seventy weeks are fulfilled. Let me express it logically:

The putting away of sin and the making of the atonement of Daniel 9:24, is the same putting away of sin and the same making of atonement in Hebrews 9.

But, the putting away of sin and the making of the atonement of Daniel 9:24, would be accomplished within the confines of, but by the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9.

Therefore, the putting away of sin and making of the atonement of Hebrews 9 would be accomplished within, but by the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9.

Notice also what this means, when we turn it around and look at it from the perspective of Hebrews 9.

The putting away of sin and the making of the atonement of Daniel 9:24, is the same putting away of sin and the making of the atonement in Hebrews 9.

But, the putting away of sin and the making of atonement of Hebrews 9 would be perfected when the prophetic elements of the Mosaic cultus were fulfilled and the Mosaic cultus was terminated (Hebrews 9-10).

Therefore, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 would be consummated when the prophetic elements of the Mosaic cultus were fulfilled and the Mosaic cultus terminated.

What this means, stated simply, is that the end of the Mosaic Law, the end of the Mosaic age would be the end of the seventy weeks of Daniel 9. It means that the Mosaic Law would remain valid and "standing" until the end of the seventy weeks.

Let me return to a point. Daniel 9 is not concerned with the end of time, of human history, or the end of the Christian age. It is about the end of God's dealings with Old Covenant Israel. Consider what this means since Daniel 9 and Hebrews 9 are essentially parallel texts.

Daniel 9 and Hebrews 9 both anticipated the same time and events, the consummation of God's covenant dealings with Israel. The Hebrew writer says the Old Covenant system would remain valid "until the time of reformation." The time of reformation is undeniably the goal of Israel's typological, prophetic cultus.

The consummation of Israel's typological, prophetic cultus would be the "second coming" of Christ for salvation. However, if the "second coming" of Christ is the consummation of Israel's typological and prophetic cultus, then that means Christ's "Second Coming" would bring to an end the typological and prophetic Old Covenant age. Simply put, the second coming of Christ would be at the end of the Mosaic age, not the end of the Christian age.

Since the Hebrews author said that the Old Covenant was "nigh unto passing" when he wrote (Hebrews 8:13), and anticipated the coming of Christ "in a very, very little while" to bring heavenly reward (Hebrews 10:32-37), it means that the consummation of the seventy weeks was "very, very near."

What Hebrews 9 anticipated was the fulfillment of the hope of Israel, as found in Daniel 9. However, since the Hebrews writer affirmed the very soon fulfillment of those hopes, at the end of the Old Covenant world, it therefore follows that the Hebrews writer knew nothing of a postponed kingdom, or failure of Christ to fulfill his mission. The fact that the writer posits the still valid cultus, and its abiding status until the fulfillment of all that it foreshadowed, proves the writer did not see a postponed kingdom. The fact that he anticipated the very, very soon fulfillment of those promises falsifies the millennial view of Daniel 9. And, the fact that he still anticipated the perfecting of the atonement proves that the seventy weeks were not already fulfilled.

The correlation between Daniel 9 and Hebrews 9 is incredibly important. Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the Old Covenant fathers (Romans 15:8). In his death he initiated the process of putting away of sin, and the atonement, foretold by the fathers. The writer of Hebrews knew that Israel's covenant would stand until it was fulfilled, when her salvation arrived. That soteriological climax of her history would come when the old cultus was swept away, and the New Covenant world of the Messiah stood triumphant. And, unless Hebrews 9 anticipated a totally different putting away of sin, a totally different atonement, a different fulfillment of prophecy, and a salvation different than foretold by Daniel 9, this means that the writer of Hebrews understood very well, and with eagerness, that the consummation of the seventy weeks was very, very near.

Don K Preston
 
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parousia70

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34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


As long as people marry, and they still die, it is called "this age".

The age to come, or "that age" is defined by those who attain to the resurrection of the dead, who neither marry nor do they die.

These who attain the resurrection of the dead, are called sons of God and have become equal to the angels... being sons of the resurrection.

Do people still die here on earth?
Do people still marry here on earth?

The answer to both is yes.

It is still called "this age", and will continue to be called "this age" until the coming of the Lord and the resurrection/rapture.



JLB


And Matthew 21:33-45?
When do you say that happened please.
 
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Aijalon

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Being as I no longer really fit into either the Pre or Post trib camps... I thought I would add a post, haven't been on here in a while.

So mainly the reasons I fit neither is:
  1. The Great Tribulation has been ongoing since 70AD (and we are still in it)
  2. The descriptions of the Great Tribulation are not of literal events, rather they are spiritual events. (for example the smoke blocking the sun in Rev 9 is a cloud of lies obscuring the ture Gospel, and the demon horsemen are elders supported by false teachers spreading poisonous lies)
I suspect we are right at the cusp of the end of the world, well along into the trumpets phase of things, so in that sense I believe we are nearing the end of the Great Tribulation. The Seals have been unleashed (geopolitical carnage on earth) and now we are in the 7th seal (7 trumps) time frame.

As I have arrived where I'm at it has been the case that I have shifted from mainly a futurist perspective to a historicist. As far as that goes, the Abomination of Desolation question is the main thing to understand, being as Matthew 24 states clearly that we should read and understand Daniel.

When the AOD is correctly placed as a historical event, then we can correctly move forward with our understanding of end time events. (Most PreTrib and PostTrib tend to agree that the AOD is a future event, from my experience)

As a historicist then, it is not hard to understand that Jesus defined the AOD in immediate future for the 70 AD generation.

**

Yes, the Generation Jesus spoke to in Matthew 24:34 must be that Generation for this simple reason: it is preposterous and confusing to think otherwise.

Preposterous because if you say Jesus wasn't speaking to the generation before his eyes, how can they have understood what he was teaching? When he said "you shall see" the AOD.... who was he speaking to if not them? We are given no indication he spoke to people not present. Or else was Jesus speaking to them in a riddle? The text would tell if he were, and it does not. It would be purely confusion to try to make them only think they (30-70 AD) were the generation he spoke of

It seems to me that you and many support this fallacy that Jesus spoke toward a future generation in that verse because they have too many problems resolving when and where each of the "events" supposedly happened, and so they take an intellectually dishonest step and shoot it all forward.

The word "this" is to mean "this one" - there is simply no way around it. The people who heard Jesus had no other way of understanding what he was saying except that he meant THEM.

What the audience then heard and believed is of supreme importance here, as is the case with all of the Scriptures in order to frame a correct context. It's a fundamental principle of scriptural interpretation to look at the text from the perspective of a person in 33AD.

I've been in your camp in the past, I used to argue for this too, I actually did. Problem is, I could not shake the text off. It says THIS GENERATION. At what point did Jesus indicate any other generation? He didn't. It is just fundamental reading.

And not to lose track of the main point.....You have no evidence that the Gospel witness has NOT reached all nations. Since every nation, state, county, province, and city on earth has heard the gospel (not necessarily received it gladly) it is quite a task to go about proving that every neighborhood has never had a gospel witness. The Gospel reaching all nations is a sure thing, it will take care of itself, underground if necessary, we have no duty or need to double check, and every reason to think this has already happened.

In review:

The disciples asked two questions:

A. When was the destruction of the temple
B. What is the sign of his coming and end of the age
(begs the need for a nuanced answer, given that they didn't know his coming was actually so far away)

Jesus responded with:
1. A summary of the GT (v4) {the section in the OP}
1.a A warning to flee Judea (v15)
1.b A warning to the world (v21-29)
1.c foretelling of second coming/rapture (v30)​
2. Lesson 1: fig tree prophesied to "this generation" - ref 1.a (note the prophetic nature of the fig tree from previous). (v34)
3. Lesson 2: thief in the night prophesied, end of the world foretold - ref 1.b-c (v36).

Section 1 is an overview heading, it is further explained in a,b,c and the final parts are application - a final section explaining in more discreet terms the second coming and the conditions on earth at that hour. It's a teaching lesson, not just a list.


In conclusion:
To identify the correct generation Jesus is speaking about, we must determine what is the AOD. This is the ONLY way to know what is going on and it is expressly instructed that we read and understand Daniel 8 and 9. If we don't we will go off course.

Daniel 8 and 9 are a continuous prophecy. Therefore to understand the AOD, one MUST MUST MUST correctly identify:

The Ram
The he-goat
The little horn
The little horn's actions
The 2300 evenings/mornings
The start and end of the 7 weeks
The start and end of the of the 62 weeks
The start/end of the half week.
(The timeline of the reconstructed walls and prestige of Jerusalem :note:)
The prince of the people "who come"
The significant covenant (erroneously called the covenant with "many")

Because there is so much speculative futurism forced on the text of Daniel 9:24-27, it can be hard to roll back all that and look objectively at what the AOD is (what it was)
 
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Partial Preterist Eschatology defined from Theopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Preterism

Partial Preterism, the older of the two views, holds that prophecies such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ were fulfilled circa 70 AD when the Roman general (and future Emperor) Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Jewish Temple, putting a permanent stop to the daily animal sacrifices. It identifies "Babylon the great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.

Most Partial Preterists also believe the term Last Days refers not to the last days of planet Earth or the last days of humankind, but rather to the last days of the Mosaic covenant which God had exclusively with national Israel until the year AD 70. As God came in judgment upon various nations in the Old Testament, Christ also came in judgment against those in Israel who rejected him. These last days, however, are to be distinguished from the "last day," which is considered still future and entails the Second Coming of Jesus, the Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous dead physically from the grave in like-manner to Jesus' physical resurrection, the Final judgment, and the creation of a literal (rather than covenantal) New Heavens and a New Earth, free from the curse of sin and death which was brought about by the Fall of Adam and Eve.

Thus partial preterists are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the Church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the Early church fathers. Partial preterists hold that the New Testament predicts and depicts many "comings" of Christ. They contend that the phrase Second Coming means second of a like kind in a series, for the Scriptures record other "comings" even before the judgment-coming in 70 AD. This would eliminate the 70 AD event as the "second" of any series, let alone the second of a series in which the earthly, physical ministry of Christ is the first. Partial Preterists believe that the new creation comes in redemptive progression as Christ reigns from His heavenly throne, subjugating His enemies, and will eventually culminate in the destruction of physical death, the "last enemy" (1 Cor 15:20-24). If there are any enemies remaining, the resurrection event cannot have occurred.
 
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I agree with all that you have said about partial preterism. This is my view because I believe God accomplishes His will working through people. He has the power to make all of His enemies a footstool for His feet but He is using men to do that. So Jesus comes when all things are in order not chaos.
 
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I too think that most of Revelations has been and gone.
I am glad you agree that most of the book of Revelation has been fulfilled. From your agreement ensues that the world is getting better and the church will bring the world into submission to Jesus Christ in this age. I trust you also believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I'm starting a safe house for Partial Preterist eschatology since there isn't one yet. Feel free to post all your Partial Preterism studies or reflections here. :)

No Dispensationalism. No Darbyites. No Post, Mid, or Pre-trib anything. In fact, let's just not even use the word 'Trib' here please. It's as sickening as people who say 'devo' for Devotional. This is a Partial Preterist safe house. This is not a Full Preterist safe house, however. Do not confuse Partial Preterism (Historical Preterism) is Full Preterism (Hyper-Preterism).

The Lady Elect who dwells in the midst of Babylon, along with all her children, bids you welcome.

Members who chose to participate in this safe house should be partial preterists. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a partial preterists point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

  • This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the partial preterism.
  • The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."
  • If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.
  • Members who do not believe in partial preterism may post in fellowship only.
  • No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.
Although I think the partial preterist label is ill-advised. Not trying to be offensive. There is just so much baggage attached to "preterism" as a doctrine rather than just a word with a meaning that I would never use it to describe myself. Anyway; I am continually all over the internet using this language:
There are two distinct bodies of end time prophecy that were completely fulfilled after the NT was written. Both bodies name the who, what, when, and why. One was the end of the Old covenant age, 70 AD. The other was the end of the age of the four gentile empires, Babylonian, Medo\Persian, Greek and Roman. In case you didn't know it the capitol of the Roman empire was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD and there never ceased to be an emperor on the thrown until 1453 AD when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks.
Then there is another far larger body of prophecy than the two bodies of end time prophecy about the age that would follow the age of the four gentile empires. 100+ chapters worth of an age of promise. An age when all the earthly promises made to a thousand generations of saints that went unfulfilled in their generations began to slowly but surely come to pass in nations that meet the condition's.
I actually have thousands of pages written about all this on the internet. Anyway I guess I'd like to see what you have to say.
 
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