Loving the Orlando victims and spreading the Word!

WannaWitness

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I'm not seeking to debate here (I stink at it, so please don't try), but let me point out that Jesus Himself actually dined with tax collectors and sinners (despite the flack He got from Pharisees). If He didn't, they wouldn't have turned from their ways and become His devout followers as a result. And although the Bible doesn't speak of this, I would have no reason to doubt that there could have been a little casual chit-chat about "stuff in general" before presenting these individuals with the message of hope and salvation. Hey, don't say that couldn't be possible!

See, in order to reach the people, we Christians should relate to them. That doesn't mean "going down to their level" or engaging in the same sinful activities. It just means speaking to people with our own shortcomings and struggles in mind. We need to be a natural shining light to the world and approach people in a gentle, loving way, showing them that we are just regular people who happen to have Christ's agape love shining through us which will naturally be reflected in our speech and actions, whether we're cracking jokes, discussing hobbies, or talking about serious issues. Then, once we have planted the seed by sharing the Gospel, God does the watering as He sees fit. Some will accept, but sadly some never will and consequently will die in their sinful state. So, we believers should really do what we can to present the love and saving grace of Jesus Christ. This cannot be done if we turn our noses up and avoid them. Jesus didn't, and we should follow His example!

To follow is a song that ties in with this topic. It has a powerful message, and is one of my favorites.


Also, here are the lyrics to an old Hank Williams song that has a similar message:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/hankwilliams/becarefulofstonesthatyouthrow.html

God bless.
 
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WannaWitness

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Here is an article dealing with how Christians should approach the issue of homosexuality. The original link has been dead for quite some time, but I found one copy from 2013 by running it through the Wayback Machine. To me, it is very insightful and analyzes this issue from a truly balanced (not to be confused with "namby-pamby") perspective.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013071....blogspot.com/2009/01/i-love-homosexuals.html

This link is good, too!

http://www.mudcreekchurch.org/blog/guidedsexualethics
 
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IAMANOBODY2015

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Most Christians aren't like the Westboro Baptist Church, but nonetheless, people are getting sad for the wrong reason, in my opinion.

We can tell them that sure, we don't believe they were killed by God because they're gay, or that God would be happy they're dead, and that may calm some tension, but if we're honest and discuss where unrepentant sinners go, we won't be viewed much differently.

It's to be expected. Scripture prepared us for it. For being shunned because we choose righteousness over unrighteousness. Even amongst Christians we'll be shunned for holding to the Biblical view, but even in that case we're told that there's the many and the few and the many don't find their way to Heaven.

So yes, we can patch one wound and open another with different words.

Pray for the families of the deceased and people in the gay community by all means, but I still think there's to be some distance and Scripture backs that up too(not just about gays, but unrepentant sinners and those that do not heed rebuking in general)

NEVER MIND
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I'm not seeking to debate here (I stink at it, so please don't try), but let me point out that Jesus Himself actually dined with tax collectors and sinners (despite the flack He got from Pharisees). If He didn't, they wouldn't have turned from their ways and become His devout followers as a result. And although the Bible doesn't speak of this, I would have no reason to doubt that there could have been a little casual chit-chat about "stuff in general" before presenting these individuals with the message of hope and salvation. Hey, don't say that couldn't be possible!

See, in order to reach the people, we Christians should relate to them. That doesn't mean "going down to their level" or engaging in the same sinful activities. It just means speaking to people with our own shortcomings and struggles in mind. We need to be a natural shining light to the world and approach people in a gentle, loving way, showing them that we are just regular people who happen to have Christ's agape love shining through us which will naturally be reflected in our speech and actions, whether we're cracking jokes, discussing hobbies, or talking about serious issues. Then, once we have planted the seed by sharing the Gospel, God does the watering as He sees fit. Some will accept, but sadly some never will and consequently will die in their sinful state. So, we believers should really do what we can to present the love and saving grace of Jesus Christ. This cannot be done if we turn our noses up and avoid them. Jesus didn't, and we should follow His example!

To follow is a song that ties in with this topic. It has a powerful message, and is one of my favorites.


Also, here are the lyrics to an old Hank Williams song that has a similar message:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/hankwilliams/becarefulofstonesthatyouthrow.html

God bless.

Here is an article dealing with how Christians should approach the issue of homosexuality. The original link has been dead for quite some time, but I found one copy from 2013 by running it through the Wayback Machine. To me, it is very insightful and analyzes this issue from a truly balanced (not to be confused with "namby-pamby") perspective.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013071....blogspot.com/2009/01/i-love-homosexuals.html

This link is good, too!

http://www.mudcreekchurch.org/blog/guidedsexualethics

I agree with everything you have said! :) And I really enjoyed the song you showed and the lyrics to that other one. I absolutely agree. People — especially Christians — should be less judgemental. We, too, have our flaws.

As for the articles, I do apologise, but I am not willing to read all that! :(

By the way, here are two related videos which I watched some time ago:


 
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WannaWitness

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I agree with everything you have said! :) And I really enjoyed the song you showed and the lyrics to that other one. I absolutely agree. People — especially Christians — should be less judgemental. We, too, have our flaws.

As for the articles, I do apologise, but I am not willing to read all that! :(

By the way, here are two related videos which I watched some time ago:



Exactly my point. We need to be examining the planks in our own eyes before pointing to the little speck in someone else's. (Matthew 7:3)

The articles were just basically about how Christians should love and deal with homosexuals (and others) the way Christ would. Both of them pointed out how homosexual lifestyles are no worse than other sins, how to understand where they are coming from, and how to gently approach them regarding how the lifestyle is wrong according the Bible. They were basically "preaching to the choir", but brought out some points that many of us as Christians tend to forget sometimes.

Have you thought about saving the links to your PC or bookmarking them to your browser's "Favorites" list? Or printing them out to read a little at a time? I'm quite busy so whenever I find something that's of interest, that's what I do so I can make reference to them later. If you can't, that's perfectly fine. :)

Also, I like the videos. I appreciate the fact that they are presented in a lighthearted way, yet still gets the message across.
 
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Julie.S

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On the contrary, people who support the gay community and fellowship with them are in rebellion against God.

We are instructed to keep away from those who wantonly break God's law. Paul openly labeled homosexuals as individuals who are filled with all manner of wickedness, envy, deceit, and disobedience.

Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Are we to be friends with such people? Are we to give our approval and support to them? No.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person.
Christians like you really frustrate me, because you're sitting here preaching from the hilltops something that is altogether unbiblical, and against God's will. And before you bring up the Messiah eating and drinking with sinners, please read the verse:

Mark 2:17 When the Messiah heard it, He saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

He was there to lead them out of darkness and into light, to heal them and bring them out of a life of sin. Not to support and subsidize their wanton mental depravities. He was acting as a doctor, not a long lost buddy.
I have friends who are gay. My cousin is gay and I love them as I do my fellow human.

We need to stop violence against people that's what needs to happen.
 
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twinserk

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Well, the definition of the word seems to go beyond just breaking no law.

You are once again, mixing definitions. The apostle John and the Messiah both told us explicitly what love is. And yet you continue to use your own personal definition, or the definition a translator drew up.

Gosh! :openmouth: I honestly cannot believe that you endorse the criminalisation of homosexuality! Tell me, then: why do you think it should be criminalised? Solely because the Bible argues against it? In that case, what do you think gives you the right to impose biblical standards on the entire population of your country? Do you not believe in freedom of religion?

One day, God says that He will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So no, I don't believe in the freedom of religion, because God doesn't believe in the freedom of religion. You're either with Him, or against Him. He created us, and the world we will in. He is the King, and we are His subjects. Does a King allow His subjects to break His law and commands, merely because they want to?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Actually, it says, ‘Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.’

For the purpose of this conversation, it's the same thing. His will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. His will is for His law to be kept and enforced. Not forgotten and disregarded by anyone who has a mind to do so.

Evidently, you are misinterpreting the verse in question. Read around it. Do you see anything related to governments or civil powers? Of course not! Nowhere else in the Bible are we told this.

Then, what does this mean? Evidently, we have to look at context. Contextually speaking, the passage talks about our own personal relationship with God. Allowing God's will to be done means that it should be done in our hearts, and not governmentally imposed by force.

Surely you know one of the basic rules for interpreting unclear passages: ‘The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly’ (http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc01.html). With that in mind, you may remember the passage in which Jesus asks that the Father's will be done instead of his own. And yet, can you find a single command in Scripture for us to attempt to impose God's law across the nations?

You're wrong, dead wrong. As I stated above, God will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations, and enforce His will. In essence, His people will be given civil authority over others. Something that they currently do not possess.

No, you understood me correctly. We have no right to impose Christian laws on others. We must respect other religions (including, for this matter, atheism and agnosticism, which allow for homosexuality), which includes permitting their free existence and practices. Just as we want our religion to be respected, we have to respect others (Luke 6:31).

Why don't you give me an example of the Messiah, His disciples, the Prophets, or anyone who was righteous for that matter, tolerating someone else's pagan religion (or lack thereof).

You are grossly perverting the message of that verse. He is not telling us to turn a blind eye to people's sins, and tolerate them behaving immorally. Are you now going to advocate that murderers shouldn't be executed because we wouldn't want to be executed ourselves?

It makes sense if you take it less literally. Being friends with such things means approving of them, or even performing them.

No, it's more agreeable if you "take it less literally". The rest of scripture testifies that unbelievers are shunned by the the community of believers as far as personal relationship are concerned. Which confirms the literal interpretation of the verse, and testifies to the inaccuracy of Mr. Got Questions' opinion.

You are correct that hanging out with sinful people tends to help us sin as well. However, this does not mean that we should abstain from contact with such people. I know people who, although not being Christian, are good people otherwise, with whom it is pleasant and useful to be. They respect me and my beliefs; they avoid swearing or talking about immoral things in my presence, out of respect for me; it is OK to be friends with such people. And, of course, I choose my friends wisely, so that those who swear too much, for instance, will be excluded.

So, you've decided that a friend who uses extreme language is just too much. You've decided that as long as they respect you, it's ok. You like them, and they're socially pleasant people, so therefore it's ok.

And I thought God was the one to decide who is good and who is evil. Sounds to me like you've usurped His authority, and left it to yourself to define the good from the bad.

I'm not seeking to debate here (I stink at it, so please don't try), but let me point out that Jesus Himself actually dined with tax collectors and sinners (despite the flack He got from Pharisees). If He didn't, they wouldn't have turned from their ways and become His devout followers as a result. And although the Bible doesn't speak of this, I would have no reason to doubt that there could have been a little casual chit-chat about "stuff in general" before presenting these individuals with the message of hope and salvation. Hey, don't say that couldn't be possible!

Yes, He did dine with them. But why?

Mark 2:17 When the Messiah heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
He clearly stated what He was doing. He was preaching the gospel, and turning sinners to a way of righteousness, as a doctor cures his patients of disease. He was not their friend. He was there for a purpose, and that purpose was to preach the gospel of the kingdom.

See, in order to reach the people, we Christians should relate to them. That doesn't mean "going down to their level" or engaging in the same sinful activities. It just means speaking to people with our own shortcomings and struggles in mind. We need to be a natural shining light to the world and approach people in a gentle, loving way, showing them that we are just regular people who happen to have Christ's agape love shining through us which will naturally be reflected in our speech and actions, whether we're cracking jokes, discussing hobbies, or talking about serious issues. Then, once we have planted the seed by sharing the Gospel, God does the watering as He sees fit. Some will accept, but sadly some never will and consequently will die in their sinful state. So, we believers should really do what we can to present the love and saving grace of Jesus Christ. This cannot be done if we turn our noses up and avoid them. Jesus didn't, and we should follow His example!

You're wrong.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Unrepentant sinners were not kept in the congregation. Yes, people are more receptive to a kind approach. But being kind does not mean being their friend. As I've already demonstrated, the Messiah did not befriend the people He preached to, neither did His disciples. He emphatically stated that only those who obeyed Him were His friends:

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Exactly my point. We need to be examining the planks in our own eyes before pointing to the little speck in someone else's. (Matthew 7:3)

Precisely so, you are not able to judge someone else, if you are guilty of the same sin. Last I checked, I'm wasn't a homosexual. Besides the fact that I'm not judging them in a judicial sense. I'm exercising my responsibility as a believer to keep the faith, and thus not associate with homosexuals. As well as explain the hope that lies within me, and defend the integrity of God's name.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I have friends who are gay. My cousin is gay and I love them as I do my fellow human.

We need to stop violence against people that's what needs to happen.

So, you doing it makes it right?

None of us are advocating violence.
 
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Julie.S

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You are once again, mixing definitions. The apostle John and the Messiah both told us explicitly what love is. And yet you continue to use your own personal definition, or the definition a translator drew up.



One day, God says that He will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So no, I don't believe in the freedom of religion, because God doesn't believe in the freedom of religion. You're either with Him, or against Him. He created us, and the world we will in. He is the King, and we are His subjects. Does a King allow His subjects to break His law and commands, merely because they want to?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.



For the purpose of this conversation, it's the same thing. His will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. His will is for His law to be kept and enforced. Not forgotten and disregarded by anyone who has a mind to do so.



You're wrong, dead wrong. As I stated above, God will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations, and enforce His will. In essence, His people will be given civil authority over others. Something that they currently do not possess.



Why don't you give me an example of the Messiah, His disciples, the Prophets, or anyone who was righteous for that matter, tolerating someone else's pagan religion (or lack thereof).

You are grossly perverting the message of that verse. He is not telling us to turn a blind eye to people's sins, and tolerate them behaving immorally. Are you now going to advocate that murderers shouldn't be executed because we wouldn't want to be executed ourselves?



No, it's more agreeable if you "take it less literally". The rest of scripture testifies that unbelievers are shunned by the the community of believers as far as personal relationship are concerned. Which confirms the literal interpretation of the verse, and testifies to the inaccuracy of Mr. Got Questions' opinion.



So, you've decided that a friend who uses extreme language is just too much. You've decided that as long as they respect you, it's ok. You like them, and they're socially pleasant people, so therefore it's ok.

And I thought God was the one to decide who is good and who is evil. Sounds to me like you've usurped His authority, and left it to yourself to define the good from the bad.



Yes, He did dine with them. But why?

Mark 2:17 When the Messiah heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
He clearly stated what He was doing. He was preaching the gospel, and turning sinners to a way of righteousness, as a doctor cures his patients of disease. He was not their friend. He was there for a purpose, and that purpose was to preach the gospel of the kingdom.



You're wrong.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Unrepentant sinners were not kept in the congregation. Yes, people are more receptive to a kind approach. But being kind does not mean being their friend. As I've already demonstrated, the Messiah did not befriend the people He preached to, neither did His disciples. He emphatically stated that only those who obeyed Him were His friends:

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.



Precisely so, you are not able to judge someone else, if you are guilty of the same sin. Last I checked, I'm wasn't a homosexual. Besides the fact that I'm not judging them in a judicial sense. I'm exercising my responsibility as a believer to keep the faith, and thus not associate with homosexuals. As well as explain the hope that lies within me, and defend the integrity of God's name.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:



So, you doing it makes it right?

None of us are advocating violence.
I never mentioned anything being right here.
 
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Julie.S

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So you're saying that you'll do it, regardless of whether it's right or wrong?
They are humans just like I am. People in recent times have been giving them lots of problems and If I saw someone giving them a hard time I would try to help stop it. Just as I would any other person.

I'm sorry I'm just not that judgemental about this stuff any more.

We are all humans here and that's reason enough for me. I'm not here to tell other people what to do or promote something.
 
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twinserk

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They are humans just like I am. People in recent times have been giving them lots of problems and If I saw someone giving them a hard time I would try to help stop it. Just as I would any other person.

I'm sorry I'm just not that judgemental about this stuff any more.

We are all humans here and that's reason enough for me. I'm not here to tell other people what to do or promote something.

So you're advocating humanism? Homosexuals are human, and therefore their interests come before God's interests?
 
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Julie.S

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So you're advocating humanism? Homosexuals are human, and therefore their interests come before God's interests?
I never said that I believe. I respect all people I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Yes they are human just like all of us. If someone was beating one of them up I would help stop it and make sure they are ok why would I not?
 
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twinserk

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I never said that I believe. I respect all people I'm sorry if that bothers you.

Yes they are human just like all of us. If someone was beating one of them up I would help stop it and make sure they are ok why would I not?

I'm not following your thoughts very well. You started out by stating that you're friends with several homosexuals. Testifying by your actions that you believe your behavior to be right. You then stated that homosexuals are people, and thus deserving of acceptance and respect.

Now you're talking about saving someone from getting mugged.
 
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Julie.S

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I'm not following your thoughts very well. You started out by stating that you're friends with several homosexuals. Testifying by your actions that you believe your behavior to be right. You then stated that homosexuals are people, and thus deserving of acceptance and respect.

Now you're talking about saving someone from getting mugged.
That's not it at all sorry if it was hard to read.

I'm saying no matter if they are homosexual or not they deserve to be treated like human beings because they are. Yes I have relatives and friends who are and I love them because I care about them and their well being.
 
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twinserk

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That's not it at all sorry if it was hard to read.

I'm saying no matter if they are homosexual or not they deserve to be treated like human beings because they are. Yes I have relatives and friends who are and I love them because I care about them and their well being.

We are told to love our neighbor as ourselves, which as I explained earlier in this thread, means not sinning against others.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
So if you mean that we shouldn't sin against homosexuals, then you're right. We're not suppose to sin against anyone. But the later half of your paragraph is where you lose me. Homosexuals are people of the world, and we as believers are instructed to not be friends of the world. It is also stated that light (God & His children) has no fellowship with darkness (Satan & his children).

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
So how are you biblically justifying your actions?
 
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Julie.S

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We are told to love our neighbor as ourselves, which as I explained earlier in this thread, means not sinning against others.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
So if you mean that we shouldn't sin against homosexuals, then you're right. We're not suppose to sin against anyone. But the later half of your paragraph is where you lose me. Homosexuals are people of the world, and we as believers are instructed to not be friends of the world. It is also stated that light (God & His children) has no fellowship with darkness (Satan & his children).

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
So how are you biblically justifying your actions?
I'm not justifying anything. I come from a family that is very open and accepting. We are good Christian people and a strong happy family.

I am friends with many people. What you said there is actually rather alien to me as I have never seen it before in my life. Never got taught it at church either.

My friends are not of Satan thanks I make sure of that. I only am friends with people who have morals. My friends wouldn't hurt a fly as far as I know.

I'm not here to argue over what is biblical sorry. I'm not that sort of person.

Now good day to you.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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One day, God says that He will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Is that say supposed to be right now? If not, why do you believe in criminalising homosexuality?

So no, I don't believe in the freedom of religion, because God doesn't believe in the freedom of religion. You're either with Him, or against Him. He created us, and the world we will in. He is the King, and we are His subjects. Does a King allow His subjects to break His law and commands, merely because they want to?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

For the purpose of this conversation, it's the same thing. His will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. His will is for His law to be kept and enforced. Not forgotten and disregarded by anyone who has a mind to do so.

You're wrong, dead wrong. As I stated above, God will empower His holy ones, and they will rule the nations, and enforce His will. In essence, His people will be given civil authority over others. Something that they currently do not possess.

Why don't you give me an example of the Messiah, His disciples, the Prophets, or anyone who was righteous for that matter, tolerating someone else's pagan religion (or lack thereof).

In order to show you how freedom of religion is a biblical concept, I would like you to read this article: http://www.gotquestions.org/freedom-of-religion.html, especially from the fifth paragraph onwards. For a TL;DR summary, allow me to just say that God ever coerced anyone into accepting him — rather, as you can clearly see from Jesus' preaching, following him is voluntary (surely you remember the instance of the rich man who rejected following him, and Jesus allowed him).

You are grossly perverting the message of that verse. He is not telling us to turn a blind eye to people's sins, and tolerate them behaving immorally. Are you now going to advocate that murderers shouldn't be executed because we wouldn't want to be executed ourselves?

The verse teaches us to tolerate others as we wish they would tolerate us. It has got nothing to do with administering due punishment to a criminal. Besides, murdering is a crime (both in God's eyes and in man's eyes) which makes victims, but homosexuality is a crime (only in God's eyes) which affects no-one, so the government has no duty of prohibiting it.

No, it's more agreeable if you "take it less literally". The rest of scripture testifies that unbelievers are shunned by the the community of believers as far as personal relationship are concerned.

Shunned? Where exactly do you read that? And are you not confusing ‘excluding someone from the church’ with ‘rejecting friendship with someone’?

Which confirms the literal interpretation of the verse, and testifies to the inaccuracy of Mr. Got Questions' opinion.

I do hope you are not, in any way, attempting to ridicule GotQuestions. It is an excellent ministry, which holds accurate, biblical perspectives in most things, if not all. It has been extremely useful to me and it is surely the most biblical website I have ever come across (other than online Bibles ;) ). Their articles are valuable. You should read them, and you could learn a lot from them. In fact, you (being a Fundamentalist) will find with them (a Conservative ministry) much more in common than with most ‘biblical’ websites (mostly Liberal).

So, you've decided that a friend who uses extreme language is just too much. You've decided that as long as they respect you, it's ok. You like them, and they're socially pleasant people, so therefore it's ok.

And I thought God was the one to decide who is good and who is evil. Sounds to me like you've usurped His authority, and left it to yourself to define the good from the bad.

Actually, I really think God is OK with this. I have come across some people whom I understand to have been placed by God along my path to help me. Indeed, God never requires that we abstain from every form of friendship with non-Christians.

Precisely so, you are not able to judge someone else, if you are guilty of the same sin. Last I checked, I'm wasn't a homosexual.

You do not have to be guilty of the same sin — only any sin. Do you remember the episode of the adulteress in John 8:2-11? Well, none of the Pharisees there was guilty of adultery. However, Jesus still said that they were not worthy of condemning her. He said, in verse 7: ‘Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ He said ‘without sin’ [any sin], not ‘without a similar sin’.

Besides the fact that I'm not judging them in a judicial sense. I'm exercising my responsibility as a believer to keep the faith, and thus not associate with homosexuals.

Mm-hmm. Except that you are also advocating for a legal prohibition on homosexual acts.

None of us are advocating violence.

You are very close to that. How will you enforce a legal prohibition against homosexual acts without some form of violence?
 
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Is that say supposed to be right now? If not, why do you believe in criminalising homosexuality?

I believe in the CIVIL GOVERNMENT criminalizing homosexuality. God's agents do not yet possess civil authority, but they will in the future. What I was saying, is that the CIVIL GOVERNMENT should criminalize it, because they currently have the authority to do so.

In order to show you how freedom of religion is a biblical concept, I would like you to read this article: http://www.gotquestions.org/freedom-of-religion.html, especially from the fifth paragraph onwards. For a TL;DR summary, allow me to just say that God ever coerced anyone into accepting him — rather, as you can clearly see from Jesus' preaching, following him is voluntary (surely you remember the instance of the rich man who rejected following him, and Jesus allowed him).

Dude, why do you keep sending me links to Mr. Got Questions? What do I care what the opinion of some pastor somewhere is? If you want to prove a point, use scripture.

Besides the fact that Mr. Got Questions is once again misguided. The Messiah didn't force anyone to follow Him, because He wants willing servants. He didn't punish anyone for not following Him, because He didn't have the CIVIL AUTHORITY to do so at that time.

John 18:36 The Messiah answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Revelation makes it clear that the next time He comes however, He will bring the sword. And His servants will rule the nations with rods of iron.

The verse teaches us to tolerate others as we wish they would tolerate us. It has got nothing to do with administering due punishment to a criminal. Besides, murdering is a crime (both in God's eyes and in man's eyes) which makes victims, but homosexuality is a crime (only in God's eyes) which affects no-one, so the government has no duty of prohibiting it.

It says nothing of the sort. The Messiah is talking about sin and the law.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

A Godly government does have a duty to prohibit it.

Shunned? Where exactly do you read that? And are you not confusing ‘excluding someone from the church’ with ‘rejecting friendship with someone’?

Dude, I've shown you the verses. If you want to claim that the world is some collection of disembodied human behaviors, that are inexplicably capable of hating the Messiah and His disciples, then go ahead. Hate only resides in a living human host, but if you want to ignore that fact, and all the other verses I shared demonstrating that believers aren't friends with unbelievers, then knock yourself out.

I do hope you are not, in any way, attempting to ridicule GotQuestions. It is an excellent ministry, which holds accurate, biblical perspectives in most things, if not all. It has been extremely useful to me and it is surely the most biblical website I have ever come across (other than online Bibles ;) ). Their articles are valuable. You should read them, and you could learn a lot from them. In fact, you (being a Fundamentalist) will find with them (a Conservative ministry) much more in common than with most ‘biblical’ websites (mostly Liberal).

I've biblically demonstrated all of their articles to be falsehoods thus far. So no, I don't hold them in high esteem.

Actually, I really think God is OK with this. I have come across some people whom I understand to have been placed by God along my path to help me. Indeed, God never requires that we abstain from every form of friendship with non-Christians.

Did you mean to include a bible verse in there somewhere?
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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I believe in the CIVIL GOVERNMENT criminalizing homosexuality. God's agents do not yet possess civil authority, but they will in the future. What I was saying, is that the CIVIL GOVERNMENT should criminalize it, because they currently have the authority to do so.

My question is: how does Revelation 2:26-27 (a prophecy about a seemingly future world monarchy) have anything to do with the current, irreligious civil Government criminalising homosexuality? How do you biblically justify such an unheard-of proposal?

Dude, why do you keep sending me links to Mr. Got Questions? What do I care what the opinion of some pastor somewhere is? If you want to prove a point, use scripture.

I have been sending you links to such articles, because they present, in a properly summarised manner, the main arguments used to defend my theses, always biblically justified. I could present you with the verses solely, but they have already done the job of gathering them and adding explanations as to how they can be applied — so why would I repeat it? However, if you do insist that I post their arguments here directly, I supposed I can rewrite it all. Do you insist on it, or are you willing to read the recommended sections of such articles?

By the way, it is not one single pastor. Got Questions Ministries is a large Conservative Christian organisation, and their articles are corroborated by many pastors and many other Christians.

Besides the fact that Mr. Got Questions is once again misguided. The Messiah didn't force anyone to follow Him, because He wants willing servants. He didn't punish anyone for not following Him, because He didn't have the CIVIL AUTHORITY to do so at that time.

John 18:36 The Messiah answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Revelation makes it clear that the next time He comes however, He will bring the sword. And His servants will rule the nations with rods of iron.

The point, however, is that neither did he force or punish anyone nor did he want to. He never expressed any desire to force anyone to follow him or to punish anyone who disagreed (including homosexuals). Yes, Jesus wanted willing servants and still does. If one of the principles of Christianity is opposition to homosexuality (and sexual immorality, in general), Jesus wants Christians who willingly oppose and abstain from any kind of sexual immorality (including homosexuality); he does not want us to force all people to abstain from something (homosexuality) which is unacceptable within Christianity. We may try to convince them not to do it, but never force it.

As for John 18:36, it is precisely because Jesus' kingdom is ‘not of this world’ that we should never try to get it involved with things of this world (such as politics and the Government). Granted, whilst our Christian values may impact our political ideologies (for example, by objecting to abortion — because it is murder — and the recognition of same-sex marriage — because it is unnatural and, therefore, no marriage at all), we must never force others to comply with our Christian standards of conduct. This requires not attempting to make the Government prohibit homosexual acts.

It says nothing of the sort. The Messiah is talking about sin and the law.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

He is saying that it summarises the key message of the law and the prophets. It does not invalidate what I have said about respecting other religions.

As you know, there have been times in which being a Christian was illegal, because another religion was in power and held absolute authority over the others and did not respect their right to freely exist. Freedom of religion was an excellent achievement of the last few centuries — without it, either you would be lucky enough to have your religion in power, or you would see yourself prohibited from worshipping. This would be utter nonsense, and I would expect that you would agree with me on this. I am dismayed to see that you appear to want to impose Christianity as an official religion, which would doubtlessly oppress other religions.

A Godly government does have a duty to prohibit it.

But why do you want a godly government? I want a government with no religion. Whenever governments had religions, terrible things would happen.

I've biblically demonstrated all of their articles to be falsehoods thus far. So no, I don't hold them in high esteem.

I challenge you to explore other articles from them, if you wish.

Did you mean to include a bible verse in there somewhere?

No, I do not think so, but I would take the absence of explicit commands to abstain from all friendship with non-Christians as a matter of ‘eating anything’ VS ‘eating only vegetables’ (Romans 14). In such matters, the key principle, detailed in verse 4, is: ‘Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall.’

Biblically speaking, all we have are warnings against friends who may potentially lead us into sinful behaviour (Proverbs 1:10-19; Proverbs 4:14-19; 1 Corinthians 15:33), but not an absolute prohibition of friendship with unbelievers.
 
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