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LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

dzheremi

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My father's ex-wife was a Mormon, briefly, and when I asked her about this issue (because there is an LDS building a few blocks from my father's house, and I had noticed that it does not have a cross atop it like a church would), she said that she was taught that the LDS believe that Christ was crucified not on a standard t-shaped cross but on some other type of plank that looks more like what their buildings have on them...just sort of a straight stick:

LDS-Church-Building.jpg


I have no idea if this is true or some erroneous information she picked up from someone, but that's what she said was the understanding that she picked up from her time in the LDS religion. So I guess because of that, I wouldn't personally assume that just because a Mormon doesn't have a cross it means that they are against it. Maybe there are explanations like this one or others.

Of course, Mormonism is anti-Christ and not Christian for many other reasons, but even it were just a matter of symbology (which I agree with the OP is not really what this is about, in the sense of being personally more comfortable with this symbol over that symbol), I can't imagine being any more comfortable worshiping in such a place than they would likely be in an Orthodox Church, where we greatly venerate the holy cross, as is right to do.

 
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withwonderingawe

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he LDS believe that Christ was crucified not on a standard t-shaped cross but on some other type of plank that looks more like what their buildings have on them...just sort of a straight stick:

Where did that come from?
 
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dzheremi

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I have no idea. I didn't ask any follow up questions. It could have been her misunderstanding what they were telling her, or just talking to some strange Mormons who had their own ideas, but that's what she said.

The point is there could be other reasons for it, rather than revulsion towards the cross. I don't know enough about Mormon history to say.
 
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Jane_Doe

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My father's ex-wife was a Mormon, briefly, and when I asked her about this issue (because there is an LDS building a few blocks from my father's house, and I had noticed that it does not have a cross atop it like a church would), she said that she was taught that the LDS believe that Christ was crucified not on a standard t-shaped cross but on some other type of plank that looks more like what their buildings have on them...just sort of a straight stick:

LDS-Church-Building.jpg


I have no idea if this is true or some erroneous information she picked up from someone, but that's what she said was the understanding that she picked up from her time in the LDS religion. So I guess because of that, I wouldn't personally assume that just because a Mormon doesn't have a cross it means that they are against it. Maybe there are explanations like this one or others.

Of course, Mormonism is anti-Christ and not Christian for many other reasons, but even it were just a matter of symbology (which I agree with the OP is not really what this is about, in the sense of being personally more comfortable with this symbol over that symbol), I can't imagine being any more comfortable worshiping in such a place than they would likely be in an Orthodox Church, where we greatly venerate the holy cross, as is right to do.

She was in error
 
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dzheremi

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Okay, thank you.

Alright...scratch that, then. Then we are back to Mormons having an aversion/ambivalence to the cross for historical reasons -- including on some level conflating it with Roman Catholicism, as per post #80, which I had not seen before I wrote my initial reply -- and because in their theology the cross apparently represents the "dying Christ", while they wish to focus on the "living Christ".

Eh...I kind of liked it better when I thought they just had a disagreement as to the shape of the cross, but thank you for setting me straight anyway.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Okay, thank you.

Alright...scratch that, then. Then we are back to Mormons having an aversion/ambivalence to the cross for historical reasons -- including on some level conflating it with Roman Catholicism, as per post #80, which I had not seen before I wrote my initial reply -- and because in their theology the cross apparently represents the "dying Christ", while they wish to focus on the "living Christ".

Eh...I kind of liked it better when I thought they just had a disagreement as to the shape of the cross, but thank you for setting me straight anyway.

*shurg* It's a cultural thing (as is placing crosses on top of buildings). An LDS person isn't going to actively say "take that cross off!" The cross message is definitely taught, it's just not culturally iconified in jewelry and building ordination it is in some other Christian cultures.
 
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Goatee

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That's a strange view in my opinion... :)

Philippians 1:29
29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Philippians 3:10
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Matthew 10:38
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Acts 5:41
41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.

Acts 9:16
16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Suffering. I could post more. To follow Christ we must suffer!!
 
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Hieronymus

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Philippians 1:29
29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Philippians 3:10
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Matthew 10:38
38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Acts 5:41
41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.

Acts 9:16
16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Suffering. I could post more. To follow Christ we must suffer!!
Agreed.
I thought how you put it was strange though, as if we have to pay Him, is how i read it.
 
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Super14LDS

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My father's ex-wife was a Mormon, briefly, and when I asked her about this issue (because there is an LDS building a few blocks from my father's house, and I had noticed that it does not have a cross atop it like a church would), she said that she was taught that the LDS believe that Christ was crucified not on a standard t-shaped cross but on some other type of plank that looks more like what their buildings have on them...just sort of a straight stick:

LDS-Church-Building.jpg


I have no idea if this is true or some erroneous information she picked up from someone, but that's what she said was the understanding that she picked up from her time in the LDS religion. So I guess because of that, I wouldn't personally assume that just because a Mormon doesn't have a cross it means that they are against it. Maybe there are explanations like this one or others.

Of course, Mormonism is anti-Christ and not Christian for many other reasons, but even it were just a matter of symbology (which I agree with the OP is not really what this is about, in the sense of being personally more comfortable with this symbol over that symbol), I can't imagine being any more comfortable worshiping in such a place than they would likely be in an Orthodox Church, where we greatly venerate the holy cross, as is right to do.


Another instance of pagan influence. :)

... Anglican theologian E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible (which was completed and published in 1922, nine years after his 1913 death), was emphatic in his belief that stauros never meant two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, "but always of one piece alone ... There is nothing [of the word stauros] in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber." Bullinger wrote that in the catacombs of Rome Christ was never represented there as "hanging on a cross" and that the cross was a pagan symbol of life (the ankh) in Egyptian churches that was borrowed by the Christians. He cited a letter from English Dean John William Burgon, who questioned whether a cross occurred on any Christian monument of the first four centuries and wrote: "The 'invention' of it in pre-Christian times, and the 'invention' of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed in any manner." ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Jesus'_crucifixion
 
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Super14LDS

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I guess one will never know for sure in which way the romans crucified Jesus. The exact way that is.

Here's an intro to the guy that wrote the letter cited in Wikipedia.

Defense of the Scriptures. Over a hundred years ago there was a warrior and fighter for the Scriptures. His name was John William Burgon. This champion was from a different time and century from you and me; nevertheless, he was a staunch defender of Bibliology. As you know, this discipline is the bedrock of all theology. [Bibliology refers to the doctrine of the Bible.]

It is interesting to note that Burgon not only pointed out what the Word of God said, but also defended the Word of God against all errors within his own church.

Lack of Promotion. John William Burgon was a battler. He applied what he knew, and it cost him something. He did not get promoted. He was not on the English Revised Version committee of 1881. He was not made a professor, canon, or Bishop of his church. Neither was he made the head of a college. Why? Because he "rocked too many boats"! He loved the Book. ...

http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/DeanBurgon/whowasdb.htm

A staunch defender of the word. :)

James 1:5 "if any of you lack wisdom ..."
 
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fat wee robin

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But wouldn't that be different? Pick up your cross and follow me is quite different to not wanting to see a cross or a crucifix.

Sorry people, but, i do see a lot of mormon bashing on these forums. Ok, its good to discuss issues and try and get them to see the 'Christian' view of the Bible etc. You know, every denomination thinks it is the right denomination.

I dont know enough about mormon beliefs to charge in and attack them so directly. I have read quite a few things, which i have posted before that seem way out there!

It would be great if we could 'ALL' get together and worship God under the same banner! Jesus started 'His' church. 'WE' are his church! All his believers whatever denomination. Yes, some denominations, including the CC have some weird doctrines / practices but it would be great if we could all live together with Christ instead of tugging at the different parts that make up the whole body of the Church.
Then it is time you did some studies . Mormons do not have the same God as christians ,not in any way . Moslems would be much closer .
 
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fat wee robin

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The Catholic Church has quite a few different symbols that some people say are pagan etc!
The RCC believes in God the uncreated I AM ,Mormons believe he did not always exist ,among some terrible nonsense .
Yes in order to absorb many pagans they were allowed to keep some of their habits ,but to compare the RCC to Mormons means you misunderstand entirely what is essential to be a Christian ;Mormons are not christians ,full stop .
 
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fatboys

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The RCC believes in God the uncreated I AM ,Mormons believe he did not always exist ,among some terrible nonsense .
Yes in order to absorb many pagans they were allowed to keep some of their habits ,but to compare the RCC to Mormons means you misunderstand entirely what is essential to be a Christian ;Mormons are not christians ,full stop .
We believe they have always existed
 
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John Davidson

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During my time as a Mormon the Missionaries prayed for me. One of the things they said in their prayer was that I needed to focus on the atonement and Christ's love for me.

Mormons are very much focused on the cross and the atonement. It is the central tenant of their faith and the reason why they partake of the sacrament weekly.

While I find the LDS religion to hold to many grave errors, I do emphatically disagree with this thread.
 
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Jane_Doe

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The RCC believes in God the uncreated I AM ,Mormons believe he did not always exist ,among some terrible nonsense .

Correction: LDS believe that God (the Father, Son, and Spirit) have all always existed. (Echoing what FatBoys said)
 
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withwonderingawe

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Mormons believe he did not always exist ,

You have three Mormons here telling you that is not true! It's part of the anti propaganda put out there by those who try to frighten people into not listening to Mormon Missionaries.

Nor do we believe God was just a man, Jesus was a man and God at the same time.
 
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dzheremi

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Another instance of pagan influence. :)

The veneration of the cross is pagan? Well in that case, it is better to be a believing 'pagan' Christian than an anti-Christ Mormon polytheist.

... Anglican theologian E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible (which was completed and published in 1922, nine years after his 1913 death), was emphatic in his belief that stauros never meant two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, "but always of one piece alone ... There is nothing [of the word stauros] in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber."

Interesting. To the other Mormon people who replied to my other post about "Where does this idea come from?", it's probably an undercurrent in Mormon thought, as demonstrated by this poster's ready quotations about its supposed 'invention', saying that it was really a stake, etc. So if that idea is truly in error, it looks like it's something you'll have to discuss with your fellow Mormons such as Super14LDS. Perhaps it is in error, perhaps it is not, or perhaps both opinions are acceptable within your religion. I have no idea.

Bullinger wrote that in the catacombs of Rome Christ was never represented there as "hanging on a cross" and that the cross was a pagan symbol of life (the ankh) in Egyptian churches that was borrowed by the Christians.

Um...I belong to the Egyptian Church, and you and this Bullinger guy are talking absolute nonsense. If the ankh were the source of the Christian cross, then why did the Egyptians use the more standard t-shaped cross in addition to it? If we have the original, why would we do that, particularly if there really is some kind of problem with the t-shaped cross (which is found far more often in Egyptian churches than the ankh-shaped one)? Rather, both exist (and always have, since the beginning of Christianity in Egypt with St. Mark) because our fathers recognized this ankh/crux ansata symbol in the tombs and such as a foreshadowing of what St. Mark preached to them, and so connected the old meaning of life everlasting in the next world with the truth of life everlasting in Christ. There's no shame in that, as the same thing happened in every case (recall St. Paul preaching to the pagan Greeks about the "unknown God"...had they not made the same connection, probably the Greeks would still be pagan today). This is why Christianity spread as quickly as it did in Egypt, not due to a 'contamination' of Christianity with paganism. You'd have a hard time suggesting otherwise in a Church which greatly venerates the likes of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, who is recorded with pride by his biographer Besa as getting into physical confrontations with pagans!

It is a peculiar Western fear of 'paganism' that has moved various kinds of Christians to reject, at different times, the celebration of the Nativity, the veneration of saints, the veneration of icons, and all kinds of other things that are normative to the Christian life. Rather than making them more Christian, though, it moves these people further and further away from historic Christianity, until eventually you end up with things like Mormonism which claim to be restoring the true Church and yet by their doctrine and practices prove themselves to be outside of Christianity entirely. It is closer to early Christian practice to recognize what can be recognized as fertile soil for the Word to take root via other philosophies (as St. Justin Martyr did in the second century with his idea of "seeds of the Word" found in pre-Christian religion), and even to see the study of such philosophies as beneficial to that end (as St. Basil of Caesarea did in the fourth century with his treatise on the edifying use of pagan literature by Christians) than to attempt to reinvent the wheel and to fall into so many heresies as a result.

He cited a letter from English Dean John William Burgon, who questioned whether a cross occurred on any Christian monument of the first four centuries and wrote: "The 'invention' of it in pre-Christian times, and the 'invention' of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed in any manner." ...

How is this one nobody's idea evidence of anything? That St. Clement of Alexandria in the second century could refer to the cross as "the Lord's symbol" in his Stromata shows how early on it was considered a symbol of Christianity, even if it didn't actually show up in Christian art until around the fourth century (notably, it did show up in anti-Christian art earlier than that, in the Alexamenos graffiti c. 200 AD, so you might want to rethink your idea of who is supporting what by their stance on this). I don't remember anyone arguing that it was invented by Christians, so that part of the quote is immaterial.

Really, this is just garbage. As though it's not possible to find similar quotes from other dead English people who say the exact opposite. Since you left me with a Wiki link, here's a bit from Wiki's page on the Christian cross that shows that earlier Anglican theologians disagree with the other gentlemen whose objections you apparently endorse:

John Pearson, Bishop of Chester (c. 1660) wrote in his commentary on the Apostles' Creed that the Greek word stauros originally signified "a straight standing Stake, Pale, or Palisador", but that, "when other transverse or prominent parts were added in a perfect Cross, it retained still the Original Name", and he declared: "The Form then of the Cross on which our Saviour suffered was not a simple, but a compounded, Figure, according to the Custom of the Romans, by whose Procurator he was condemned to die. In which there was not only a straight and erected piece of Wood fixed in the Earth, but also a transverse Beam fastned unto that towards the top thereof".
 
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