Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[Der Alte]

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,
1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of 2the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he 3 shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, 3be with you all. Amen.
(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of 2 the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and 3 sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.
(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be 1 baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive 2 the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.
(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be 1 the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering 2the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being 3 sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.
(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be 1 a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.
(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will 1 the blood of Christ, who 2 through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished 3 to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,
(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to 1 thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through 2 the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might 3 share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.
(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are 1 different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are 2 different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts
Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings
Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles
Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation
Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,​

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Lightray.

Yet, what I'm saying is, if God is light, and Jesus is God, because he is also light, then we are also God, for we are light as well.

Please read the following Lightray.

John 1
6 A man named John was sent from God (Jesus). 7 He came for testimony, to testify to the light (Jesus), so that all might
believe through him (Jesus). 8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light (Jesus). 9 The true light (Jesus), which
enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world came to be through him (Jesus), but the world did not know him (Jesus). 11 He (Jesus) came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him (Jesus).

The world came into existence through Jesus, but the world did not know this author of life, the true light, Jesus Christ.

Here are some verses that should shine some light on this.

Exodus 34
29 the skin of his face had become radiant while he spoke with the Lord.

Daniel 10
6 His body was like chrysolite, his face shone like lightning. (Jesus)

Ezekiel 8
2 and from His loins and upward the appearance of brightness. (Jesus)

Matthew 17
2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun. (Jesus)

Acts 9
3 On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. (Jesus)

John 1
5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (Jesus)

Revelations 1
16 and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. (Jesus)

I will repeat what Jesus told us, the Father is invisible, no one has ever seen the Father. Moses spoke with
YHWH and the conversation was 'face to face'. The face of Moses glowed because Moses was speaking with
the very bright and visible YHWH.

then we are also God

Incorrect Lightray, we have Christ who is the true light within us, hence, it is Christ's light that shines
outward from us.

Jesus was trying to fool his disciples?

The disciples never fully understood what Jesus was telling them. I think the apostles were more concerned with who
would be greater in the kingdom of heaven. The apostles were constantly distracted by their own mental abberations.

How does Jesus, if being God, give up His authority

Jesus never really gave up His authority over His creation, Jesus always spoke with full divine authority.

Luke 4
32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.

People commented on the way that Jesus spoke, Jesus always spoke with authority.

If He is no longer over His creation and has authority over His creation, then He is no longer God of His creation

Jesus spoke exactly as He spoke to the Israelites at Mt Sinai, always with absolute authority. Jesus never
discarded His authority over all creation, hence your argument is invalid.

He has now become under and equal with his creation. Which means he did the impossible, and
reversed all that He did, being creator of all, to now being under, and equal to His creation.

Nothing is impossible for God! If YHWH chooses to appear as one of us in order to redeem us, then so be it.

The creator took on a human appearance, to reverse the penalty due to His own creation. Jesus did this
by emptying Himself of His Divine Glory, then He took on the lowly form of a mere servant of mankind.
This was an act of will by Jesus Himself, the scripture tells us that Jesus emptied Himself, in order to take
on the appearance of a servant, a man.

The Father is still in charge of everything though, but His ONLY Son has entered His own creation to redeem
His own creation. So God the Father has full control while the Son can die.

Philippians 2
7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and arriving in human likeness.

Jesus gave up His former 'form' of YHWH, and took on a human 'form' of His own free will. That is what
the phrase 'emptied Himself ' means Lightray. Jesus discarded His own title of YHWH, though the leopard
cannot change it's spots. If you look closely at Jesus, you will see the O.T 'YHWH' underneath that exterior.

I know how many trinitarains understand this passage, the real question is why would you bring
this passage up, if you believe Paul was grappling with who Jesus was, and did not understand who Jesus
was?

Paul was passing on revelations as he received them, Paul clearly states that Jesus emptied Himself to
become a man. This passage from the letter to the Philippians, strongly indicates Christ's pre-existence.
So this raises a question for you to answer Lightray. If Jesus humbled Himself and took on this human form,
who was Jesus before the incarnation?

Incidentally, Paul did not connect the O.T 'YHWH' with the Christ, it is not easy to see.

 

[7xlightray]

Hello Lightray.

Please read the following Lightray.

John 1
6 A man named John was sent from God (Jesus). 7 He came for testimony, to testify to the light (Jesus), so that all might
believe through him (Jesus). 8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light (Jesus). 9 The true light (Jesus), which
enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He (Jesus) was in the world, and the world came to be through him (Jesus), but the world did not know him (Jesus). 11 He (Jesus) came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him (Jesus).

The world came into existence through Jesus, but the world did not know this author of life, the true light, Jesus Christ.

Here are some verses that should shine some light on this.

Exodus 34
29 the skin of his face had become radiant while he spoke with the Lord.

Daniel 10
6 His body was like chrysolite, his face shone like lightning. (Jesus)

Ezekiel 8
2 and from His loins and upward the appearance of brightness. (Jesus)

Matthew 17
2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun. (Jesus)

Acts 9
3 On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. (Jesus)

John 1
5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (Jesus)

Revelations 1
16 and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. (Jesus)

I will repeat what Jesus told us, the Father is invisible, no one has ever seen the Father. Moses spoke with
YHWH and the conversation was 'face to face'. The face of Moses glowed because Moses was speaking with
the very bright and visible YHWH.

Hello klutedavid,

Exodus 34:29
And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Exodus 34:30
And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Exodus 34:35
And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.​

Jesus face was not the only face that shone.

Luke 2:8-10
8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

Acts 12
6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
8 And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.​

Angels also can light up a room.

2 Corinthians 4
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God [Father], should shine unto them.
6 For God [Father], who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.​

Is the Father light? If the Father is light, which He is, then certainly John 1:1-13 could be referring to the Father, which there is every reason to believe this is speaking of the Father (as 2 Cor. 4 sure seems to agree with), for it was the Father that came into the world through His son (not that the Father literally came into the world). And He was not recognized working in His son, and the son spoke the words of the Father. The word does not become Jesus until verse 14.

John 1:1-14 does not say Jesus per-existed, it says the word was with the God. It does not say the word was with the “Father,” but with the “God.” If the “word” is God (a person), then we would have John making the statement that God was with the God.
Without the definite article with the second “god,” god can be read as an adjective. It reads in the Greek “god was the word,” so “god” could be understood as godly, or divine. God the Father expressed Himself through Jesus His son. 1 John 1 starting in verse 1 is saying the word-logos of life, that their hands have handled, is because this life was manifested in flesh (Jesus), the word which Jesus spoke, was with the Father. Notice again, John does not say “Jesus” was with the Father, but “that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested.” The word-logos of eternal life was manifested. This is that wisdom of God that is foolishness to those who are perishing, and includes all the doctrine of Christ.

Incorrect Lightray, we have Christ who is the true light within us, hence, it is Christ's light that shines
outward from us.

Do you not understand what I was saying? I was not trying to say we are God, but that just because someone is called light, this does not mean they are God.

And it was the Father's light that shown through Jesus, as Jesus declared, saying it is the Father's words he is speaking, and the Father's works, and if you seen me you seen the Father. Jesus revealed the Father 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God [Father], who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The disciples never fully understood what Jesus was telling them. I think the apostles were more concerned with who
would be greater in the kingdom of heaven. The apostles were constantly distracted by their own mental abberations.

Jesus never really gave up His authority over His creation, Jesus always spoke with full divine authority.

Luke 4
32 and they were amazed at His teaching, for His message was with authority.

People commented on the way that Jesus spoke, Jesus always spoke with authority.

Jesus spoke exactly as He spoke to the Israelites at Mt Sinai, always with absolute authority. Jesus never
discarded His authority over all creation, hence your argument is invalid.

Nothing is impossible for God! If YHWH chooses to appear as one of us in order to redeem us, then so be it.

The creator took on a human appearance, to reverse the penalty due to His own creation. Jesus did this
by emptying Himself of His Divine Glory, then He took on the lowly form of a mere servant of mankind.
This was an act of will by Jesus Himself, the scripture tells us that Jesus emptied Himself, in order to take
on the appearance of a servant, a man.

The Father is still in charge of everything though, but His ONLY Son has entered His own creation to redeem
His own creation. So God the Father has full control while the Son can die.

Philippians 2
7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and arriving in human likeness.

Jesus gave up His former 'form' of YHWH, and took on a human 'form' of His own free will. That is what
the phrase 'emptied Himself ' means Lightray. Jesus discarded His own title of YHWH, though the leopard
cannot change it's spots. If you look closely at Jesus, you will see the O.T 'YHWH' underneath that exterior.

Paul was passing on revelations as he received them, Paul clearly states that Jesus emptied Himself to
become a man. This passage from the letter to the Philippians, strongly indicates Christ's pre-existence.
So this raises a question for you to answer Lightray. If Jesus humbled Himself and took on this human form,
who was Jesus before the incarnation?

Incidentally, Paul did not connect the O.T 'YHWH' with the Christ, it is not easy to see.

Where does it say he gave up his form of Yhwh?

What was Jesus promoted back to? “After Jesus accomplished the designated mission, His Father promoted Him back once again, to His own throne in heaven.”

Referring to Philippians 2, are you trying to tell me Paul believed Jesus was God, yet had no understanding of a trinity? Would that not make Paul a believer in two Gods? My understanding was you believed the apostles did not know Jesus was God, or at least was not sure if he was God, or not. Are you saying Paul may have believed Jesus was an angel? What are you saying?

A servant does not mean man, a servant could be a man, or an angel. Servant has to do with hierarchy, position in life, made himself of no reputation, a servant. If Jesus was God, why didn't Paul simply say in Philippians 2:6, Jesus who was/is God? Though Jesus was a man, “form” is not referring to his humanness, but his servanthood, and is being compared to him being the son of God “in the form of God,” and chose not to use this to his advantage, but chose to serve, instead of being served. And he was made lower, like all man, which is lower then the heavenly host. He was not made greater then humans, but like humans, lower then the angels, and he came as a servant, not lording it over others. Nothing here referring to pre-existence, though that is how you are choosing to interpret it.

 

[Hoghead1]

The problem I have, Klute, is that your reference to Philp. 2 refers to passages that make it appear Christ is subordinate to the Father

 

[Hoghead1]

Yo0u have to remember, 7x, that the Bible is not a work in systematic theology or metaphysics. It provides snap shots of God, which often conflict, and leaves it to the reader to piece all this together. The Trinity is implied in Scripture. However, the actual Trinitarian doctrines are all extra-biblical in nature and often use terms and concepts foreign to the biblical world.

 

[klutedavid]

The problem I have, Klute, is that your reference to Philp. 2 refers to passages that make it appear Christ is subordinate to the Father

Hello Hoghead.

Thanks for your interest in my previous post.

The problem I have, Klute, is that your reference to Philp. 2 refers to passages that make
it appear Christ is subordinate to the Father

Not sure how you understood my reference to Paul's verse above, as making Christ appear as a
'subordinate' identity to the Father?

Philippians 2
7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, and arriving in human likeness.

The Christ emptied Himself of His Divinity obviously, and then became one of us. Since we know that
the Christ was not an angel, from the letter to the Hebrews. Then that leaves really only one possibility,
Jesus must be God, i.e., 'the Word was God'. The Christ is also the visible God of the Old Testament,
which I believe the apostles did not fully understand. The revelations that the apostle John received,
seem to strongly emphasize the deity of the Christ.

I would be interested to know how you see my reference to the verse above, as making Christ a subordinate?

 

[Hoghead1]

From what you and the Bible are saying, it very definitely appears that the Father is in charge, The Boss of bosses.

 

[7xlightray]

Yo0u have to remember, 7x, that the Bible is not a work in systematic theology or metaphysics. It provides snap shots of God, which often conflict, and leaves it to the reader to piece all this together.

There may be times when this is true, but I don't fully agree. Though, in the context we are referring to, that is, who is God, I do not agree, for scripture makes clear statements.

The Trinity is implied in Scripture.

I would also disagree with this statement, it can certainly be read into some verses, as many doctrines can, but there is only one truth, and scripture must, and does reveal this one truth.

However, the actual Trinitarian doctrines are all extra-biblical in nature and often use terms and concepts foreign to the biblical world.

I agree they are extra-biblical. I have no problem with anyone using terms foreign to the biblical world, but I'm not open to concepts foreign to the biblical world, that would be following in suit with the leaders of Israel, that introduced their own doctrines, and it did not bode well for them.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Lightray.

The 'last shall be first', the last line in your previous post is the one I will answer first.

Nothing here referring to pre-existence, though that is how you are choosing to interpret it.

No doubt you would be aware of the following passage.

Luke 1
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the
Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who
was called barren is now in her sixth month.

Mary had not conceived as yet but Elizabeth was already in her sixth month of pregnancy. Hence,
we know that Jesus was born six months after John the Baptist was born. Now John the Baptist
declares that Jesus arrived after himself, even though Jesus existed before John the Baptist.

John 1
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes
after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

John 1
30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He
existed before me.’

This is one proof of the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoghead1]

It is especially true, 7x, that when it comes to who is God, Scripture provides very disjunct snap shots. For example, many passages stress that God does not change. Many Christians will, then, insist that God is immutable. I hear that all the time. however, that are also about 100 passages that say God does change. How do these fit together? See what I mean?
Yes, the trinity can be 'read in" to many passages. However, there are many passages that seem to rule it out. You have to remember that in the early major battle between the Trinitarians and the anti-Trinitarians, both sides cited Scripture.
The doctrine of the Trinity rests heavily on the Hellenic metaphysics of the early fathers. If you won't accept anything foreign to the Biblical world, you will have real trouble with these doctrines.

 

[7xlightray]

Hello Lightray.

The 'last shall be first', the last line in your previous post is the one I will answer first.

No doubt you would be aware of the following passage.

Luke 1
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the
Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who
was called barren is now in her sixth month.

Mary had not conceived as yet but Elizabeth was already in her sixth month of pregnancy. Hence,
we know that Jesus was born six months after John the Baptist was born. Now John the Baptist
declares that Jesus arrived after himself, even though Jesus existed before John the Baptist.

John 1
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes
after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

John 1
30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He
existed before me.’

This is one proof of the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.

Hello again klutedavid,

There is also a few other things to consider in interpreting this verse.

The first is, at the end of the sentence G4413-prōtos – “before,” “He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me” can also be translated “most important, or cheif”. As in these versions...

John 1:15
AMPC
John testified about Him and cried out, This was He of Whom I said, He Who comes after me has priority over me, for He was before me. [He takes rank above me, for He existed before I did. He has advanced before me, because He is my Chief.]

GNV
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me, was before me: for he was better than I.​

That is one possible translation, and I do partly understand it that way, but I lean more toward your interpretation, but with the right understanding, if we keep it in context.

First lets get this out of the way, the word “before” in “He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me” is the word G1096-gegonen - means “has become, or is become”

As it is interpreted in these versions, as also in the AMPC version and other versions, which I wont quote them all...

John 1:15
ASV
John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.

CJB
Yochanan witnessed concerning him when he cried out, “This is the man I was talking about when I said, ‘The one coming after me has come to rank ahead of me, because he existed before me.’”

DLNT
John testifies concerning Him, and has cried-out saying, “This One was the One of Whom I said, ‘The One coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me’”.

NIV
(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”)​

If Jesus became greater, then there was a time he was not. Jesus had to become greater, and John lesser, this should also help to explain a lot - John 3:30-34. That's one thing to consider. Jesus had to grow, and live a sinless life, and be anointed of God, through John's baptism, and then become God's salvation, receiving the spirit, which was all planed before the foundation of the world. Jesus was greater, yet had to become greater, which makes sense when properly understood with the foreknowledge of God.

So, keeping it in context, John stated, starting in verse 4...

4 In him [or “it” the word] was life; and the life was the light of men.​

He says in the word was life, and the life was the light of men. Which would be what? The salvation of God, the Gospel, which God planed before the foundation of the world.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

Those in darkness, that did not comprehend, did not comprehend God's salvation, His light.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.​

John came as a witness of God's salvation.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.​

He was not that salvation, but bear witness of that salvation, that is in Christ.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

This is the true salvation, true word of God, true gospel, the true spirit, that lighteth Jew and Gentile (“every man”) that cometh into the world. The Gospel includes every word Jesus spoke, the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9; Deuteronomy 18:18-19; 1 Timothy 6:3; and also Matthew 4:4.

This light is also spoken of in Luke 2...

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.​

And put all these together for understanding... Isa 9:2;42:6;49:6;60:1-3; Matt 4:16; Acts 10:45;13:47;28:28; Rom 9:24; Gal 3:14.

Then John tells us of the witness John spoke...

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.​

Jesus is the word become flesh, and the word did exist before John, as Peter did confess, that Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world 1 Peter 1:20, this is, at least in part, what is meant by he was before, he was foreknow in the mind of God. And Jesus is the salvation of God, that God spoke of that which would come, that God foreknew, His plan. And we who are in Christ are foreknown, but Jesus is before all, for he is the first born, and salvation only comes through Jesus, so, Jesus must be first, and before all.

And how does John witness of how Jesus is greater? Is it that Jesus is God, that Jesus preexisted as a person? No...

Mark 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.​

John was not sinless, and baptized with water. We receive the baptism of the Holy spirit, which was also before John. And the holy spirit is God, and the promise of God, and Jesus became a life giving spirit, and Jesus is the spirit, which we receive crying “Father”.

And this should also explain John 1:30, and be seen in John 1:26-33.

That is the light.

 

[7xlightray]

It is especially true, 7x, that when it comes to who is God, Scripture provides very disjunct snap shots. For example, many passages stress that God does not change. Many Christians will, then, insist that God is immutable. I hear that all the time. however, that are also about 100 passages that say God does change. How do these fit together? See what I mean?

When I said “Who God is” I meant as in one person, or two person, or three person, and so on. And this is not disjunct.

Yes, the trinity can be 'read in" to many passages. However, there are many passages that seem to rule it out. You have to remember that in the early major battle between the Trinitarians and the anti-Trinitarians, both sides cited Scripture.

Two sides I do not agree with, nor do I believe scripture does, nor what the apostles taught.

The doctrine of the Trinity rests heavily on the Hellenic metaphysics of the early fathers. If you won't accept anything foreign to the Biblical world, you will have real trouble with these doctrines.

I do not want to accept foreign doctrine, that is foreign to the Biblical world.

Lets put this aside for a second, and let me ask you this. What God did Israel of the O/T believe in when wondering in the wilderness? Did they believe in a one person God, or two, or three person God?

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Lightray.

You were stretching the limits of any reasonable discussion concerning the deity of the Christ.

Your loose interpretation of the verses (John 1:15, John 1:30), is far beyond a reasonable variation
of the text, and especially the grander context.

The whole point of the testimony of this earthly man, i.e., John the Baptist, was John's testimony of the
approaching 'Holy One'. John was a sinner in need of salvation, John was born into sin, John was never
worthy of Jesus.

John 1
27 It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.

John was so unworthy a wretch, that John was not even worthy to stoop before the Holy One and untie
His sandals. It was never about whether or not, Jesus was greater than John the Baptist by any degree.
The testimony of John was all about the approaching Holy One, the pre-existent Holy One.

If your having trouble understanding that John cannot be compared to Jesus, then read what Jesus has
to say on this matter.

Matthew 11
Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!

Surely you can see this imposed qualification Lightray? Jesus said, 'among those born of women', John was
the greatest of all those 'born of women'. No person sired through human copulation was greater than John.

Jesus was born of a virgin, Jesus pre-existed, Jesus humbled Himself and became one of us. There is no
comparison between the offspring of a copulative act and the Holy One of Israel. You have not yet addressed
the fact that, Jesus was not born of women, Jesus was sired by a virgin. Jesus cannot ever be considered as a
first 'born' in any created sense.

If Jesus became greater, then there was a time he was not.

Please show me in the scripture and where exactly Lightray, Jesus is depicted as less great than
John the Baptist? Jesus was worshiped at birth, was John worshiped at birth I wonder?

In your desperation to avoid the standard translation of the text, you cited the translation below.

John 1:15 (AMPC)
John testified about Him and cried out, This was He of Whom I said, He Who comes after me has priority over
me, for He was before me. (He takes rank above me, for He existed before I did. He has advanced before me,
because He is my Chief.)

Even this amplified version you cited, still repeats the critical phrase 'for He was before me'. The Holy One
has no earthly lineage, the Holy One is from above. The Holy One has always existed, the Holy One
is YHWH in human appearance.

You do not understand that Jesus was without sin, without sin through His entire life, Lightray. Jesus was
not born into sin, never corrupt, logically Jesus is the HOLY ONE and this is by definition. The scripture
supports this portrait of the Holy One.

Acts 3
14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you.

John 6
69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.

Jesus was the Holy One of Israel and you have no where to go on this point.

Isaiah 10
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame.

Jesus was sinless before receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus was the Holy One before His ministry even began.

There has only ever been One Holy entity revealed throughout the entire scripture, i.e., YHWH.

Jesus was greater, yet had to become greater, which makes sense when properly understood
with the foreknowledge of God.

More clarification is necessary Lightray, the word 'foreknowledge' has a very limited occurrence in the
scripture. I really hope your reference is not from the early days of the church in Acts.

Acts 2
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God

This Holy One, delivered over according to the predetermined foreknowledge of the Holy One.

 

[7xlightray]

Hello Lightray.

You were stretching the limits of any reasonable discussion concerning the deity of the Christ.

Your loose interpretation of the verses (John 1:15, John 1:30), is far beyond a reasonable variation
of the text, and especially the grander context.

The whole point of the testimony of this earthly man, i.e., John the Baptist, was John's testimony of the
approaching 'Holy One'. John was a sinner in need of salvation, John was born into sin, John was never
worthy of Jesus.

John 1
27 It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.

John was so unworthy a wretch, that John was not even worthy to stoop before the Holy One and untie
His sandals. It was never about whether or not, Jesus was greater than John the Baptist by any degree.

Hello klutedavid,

You obviously did not understand what I was saying, this may be why you think “You were stretching the limits of any reasonable discussion concerning the deity of the Christ. Your loose interpretation of the verses (John 1:15, John 1:30), is far beyond a reasonable variation of the text, and especially the grander context.”

You're making it sound like I had said, “John was sinless, and that this was what I was referring to, that the greatness Jesus had to surpass was Johns lack of sin.” This is what I had actually said though...

“And how does John witness of how Jesus is greater? Is it that Jesus is God, that Jesus preexisted as a person? No...

Mark 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.​

John was not sinless, and baptized with water. We receive the baptism of the Holy spirit, which was also before John. And the holy spirit is God, and the promise of God, and Jesus became a life giving spirit, and Jesus is the spirit, which we receive crying “Father”.”

What you are doing is what is called a straw-man argument, arguing as if I had said this, yet I never did. In Mark 1:7 John tells us himself what he means. And that is, Jesus is sinless, John is not, John baptized with water, Jesus with the holy spirit. John 1:24-30 gives understanding, and John says, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world,” which is to be without blemish and without spot.

I also said, “Jesus had to become greater, and John lesser, this should also help to explain a lot - John 3:30-34.” Did you read these verses John 3:30-34, for John is stating this himself?

I also said, “Jesus had to grow, and live a sinless life, and be anointed of God, through John's baptism, and then become God's salvation, receiving the spirit, which was all planed before the foundation of the world. Jesus was greater, yet had to become greater, which makes sense when properly understood with the foreknowledge of God.”

The testimony of John was all about the approaching Holy One, the pre-existent Holy One.

Yes, John is speaking about Jesus ministry. No, John is not speaking about the pre-existent one (person), John told us himself what he means Mark 1:7; John 3:30, and speaking about the one that was to come, that was written about.

If your having trouble understanding that John cannot be compared to Jesus, then read what Jesus has
to say on this matter.

Matthew 11
Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!

Surely you can see this imposed qualification Lightray? Jesus said, 'among those born of women', John was
the greatest of all those 'born of women'. No person sired through human copulation was greater than John.

Jesus was born of a virgin, Jesus pre-existed, Jesus humbled Himself and became one of us. There is no
comparison between the offspring of a copulative act and the Holy One of Israel. You have not yet addressed
the fact that, Jesus was not born of women, Jesus was sired by a virgin. Jesus cannot ever be considered as a
first 'born' in any created sense.

Where does it say Jesus was not born of a woman? Is not a virgin a woman? Jesus does have a mother and father, Mary, and God the Father.
Of course Jesus is a firstborn in a created sense, he is the firstborn of the new creation. If he is the Firstborn (from the dead, and this is when he is also called son), then there will be others of the same, at the resurrection.

Please show me in the scripture and where exactly Lightray, Jesus is depicted as less great than
John the Baptist? Jesus was worshiped at birth, was John worshiped at birth I wonder?

I did not say Jesus was less greater then John, I said what John said, that Jesus would become greater, as John says in Matt. 3:11, 14. Jesus was not known yet, and Jesus had to be obedient in all things before he could baptize us with the holy spirit. He did not come baptizing with the holy spirit, he first had to learn obedience through what he suffered, then be resurrected and receive the promise from the Father. So, he became greater. John brought repentance by water, Jesus brought repentance by the holy spirit, to live the new life by the spirit. John was looking to be baptized by Jesus when Jesus came to John to be baptized Matthew 3:14-15 (Jesus needed to fulfill all righteousness), but Jesus was not baptizing with the holy spirit yet, he had to go to the Father first. He had to become greater.

In your desperation to avoid the standard translation of the text, you cited the translation below.

Even this amplified version you cited, still repeats the critical phrase 'for He was before me'. The Holy One
has no earthly lineage, the Holy One is from above. The Holy One has always existed, the Holy One
is YHWH in human appearance.

I have no idea what exactly you are referring to when you say “standard translation of the text.” I was not, in any way, trying to avoid a translation, I was showing other translation, to show it can be understood in other ways. In fact I said “I lean more toward your interpretation, but with the right understanding, if we keep it in context.” Yes, and I did speak on this “for He was before me.” A very basic understanding is John came baptizing, but he was to come before Jesus, to prepare the people for Jesus who was coming after John, but Jesus was before John, because Jesus was the one foretold to come that would save the people, even foretold about way back in the garden.

“Has no earthly lineage,” where does it say that?

You do not understand that Jesus was without sin, without sin through His entire life, Lightray. Jesus was
not born into sin, never corrupt, logically Jesus is the HOLY ONE and this is by definition. The scripture
supports this portrait of the Holy One.

Acts 3
14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you.

John 6
69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.

Jesus was the Holy One of Israel and you have no where to go on this point.

Isaiah 10
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame.

Jesus was sinless before receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus was the Holy One before His ministry even began.

There has only ever been One Holy entity revealed throughout the entire scripture, i.e., YHWH.

First you will have to show me where I ever said, Jesus was sinful. This is just a continuation of your straw-man argument. Of course I understand Jesus was/is without sin.

More clarification is necessary Lightray, the word 'foreknowledge' has a very limited occurrence in the
scripture. I really hope your reference is not from the early days of the church in Acts.

Acts 2
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God

This Holy One, delivered over according to the predetermined foreknowledge of the Holy One.

I'm beginning to think you are not reading my post/s at all “More clarification is necessary Lightray, the word 'foreknowledge' has a very limited occurrence in the scripture. I really hope your reference is not from the early days of the church in Acts,” I gave you the verse that I was referring to “1 Peter 1:20” which says, “who [Christ] was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world,” it does not say was known, but foreknown. Actually let me quote this passage...

20 who [Christ] was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, 21 who through him [Christ] are believers in God [Father], that raised him [Christ] from the dead, and gave him [Christ] glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God [Father].​

The Father raised Christ from the dead, and the Father gave Christ glory. So, through Christ we are believers in the Father, and our faith and hope might be in the Father.

Jesus was without sin, yet Jesus still had to resist temptation, grow in wisdom, and in favour with God and man, he had to go through life, learn obedience by what he suffered, then baptize us with the spirit. There was a process.

Luke 1:32 He shall be [future] great, and shall be [future] called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give [future] unto him the throne of his father David:​

Jesus became perfect by the things he suffered Hebrews 2:10; 5:8, means at one time he was not. I'm not saying he sinned, but there was a process. He became better then the angels Hebrews 1:4. He was lower then the angels, then he became greater then the angels Hebrews 2:9, now here he is lower then some.

It would depend on how you interpret Romans 8, but did these preexist...

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

There is a process the true ones must go through, to prove and show they are His sons, and foreknown. Also notice “glorified” in the past tense (Aorist Tense; Indicative Mood). He glorified them, but we have not been fully glorified as of yet Romans 8:18 “are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” This is the glory that they had with Him before the foundation of the world, as Jesus also spoke in John 17:5. We did not preexist as persons when God planed this all out.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello klutedavid,

You obviously did not understand what I was saying, this may be why you think “You were stretching the limits of any reasonable discussion concerning the deity of the Christ. Your loose interpretation of the verses (John 1:15, John 1:30), is far beyond a reasonable variation of the text, and especially the grander context.”

You're making it sound like I had said, “John was sinless, and that this was what I was referring to, that the greatness Jesus had to surpass was Johns lack of sin.” This is what I had actually said though...

“And how does John witness of how Jesus is greater? Is it that Jesus is God, that Jesus preexisted as a person? No...

Mark 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.​

John was not sinless, and baptized with water. We receive the baptism of the Holy spirit, which was also before John. And the holy spirit is God, and the promise of God, and Jesus became a life giving spirit, and Jesus is the spirit, which we receive crying “Father”.”

What you are doing is what is called a straw-man argument, arguing as if I had said this, yet I never did. In Mark 1:7 John tells us himself what he means. And that is, Jesus is sinless, John is not, John baptized with water, Jesus with the holy spirit. John 1:24-30 gives understanding, and John says, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world,” which is to be without blemish and without spot.

I also said, “Jesus had to become greater, and John lesser, this should also help to explain a lot - John 3:30-34.” Did you read these verses John 3:30-34, for John is stating this himself?

I also said, “Jesus had to grow, and live a sinless life, and be anointed of God, through John's baptism, and then become God's salvation, receiving the spirit, which was all planed before the foundation of the world. Jesus was greater, yet had to become greater, which makes sense when properly understood with the foreknowledge of God.”


Yes, John is speaking about Jesus ministry. No, John is not speaking about the pre-existent one (person), John told us himself what he means Mark 1:7; John 3:30, and speaking about the one that was to come, that was written about.


Where does it say Jesus was not born of a woman? Is not a virgin a woman? Jesus does have a mother and father, Mary, and God the Father.
Of course Jesus is a firstborn in a created sense, he is the firstborn of the new creation. If he is the Firstborn (from the dead, and this is when he is also called son), then there will be others of the same, at the resurrection.


I did not say Jesus was less greater then John, I said what John said, that Jesus would become greater, as John says in Matt. 3:11, 14. Jesus was not known yet, and Jesus had to be obedient in all things before he could baptize us with the holy spirit. He did not come baptizing with the holy spirit, he first had to learn obedience through what he suffered, then be resurrected and receive the promise from the Father. So, he became greater. John brought repentance by water, Jesus brought repentance by the holy spirit, to live the new life by the spirit. John was looking to be baptized by Jesus when Jesus came to John to be baptized Matthew 3:14-15 (Jesus needed to fulfill all righteousness), but Jesus was not baptizing with the holy spirit yet, he had to go to the Father first. He had to become greater.


I have no idea what exactly you are referring to when you say “standard translation of the text.” I was not, in any way, trying to avoid a translation, I was showing other translation, to show it can be understood in other ways. In fact I said “I lean more toward your interpretation, but with the right understanding, if we keep it in context.” Yes, and I did speak on this “for He was before me.” A very basic understanding is John came baptizing, but he was to come before Jesus, to prepare the people for Jesus who was coming after John, but Jesus was before John, because Jesus was the one foretold to come that would save the people, even foretold about way back in the garden.

“Has no earthly lineage,” where does it say that?


First you will have to show me where I ever said, Jesus was sinful. This is just a continuation of your straw-man argument. Of course I understand Jesus was/is without sin.


I'm beginning to think you are not reading my post/s at all “More clarification is necessary Lightray, the word 'foreknowledge' has a very limited occurrence in the scripture. I really hope your reference is not from the early days of the church in Acts,” I gave you the verse that I was referring to “1 Peter 1:20” which says, “who [Christ] was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world,” it does not say was known, but foreknown. Actually let me quote this passage...

20 who [Christ] was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, 21 who through him [Christ] are believers in God [Father], that raised him [Christ] from the dead, and gave him [Christ] glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God [Father].​

The Father raised Christ from the dead, and the Father gave Christ glory. So, through Christ we are believers in the Father, and our faith and hope might be in the Father.

Jesus was without sin, yet Jesus still had to resist temptation, grow in wisdom, and in favour with God and man, he had to go through life, learn obedience by what he suffered, then baptize us with the spirit. There was a process.

Luke 1:32 He shall be [future] great, and shall be [future] called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give [future] unto him the throne of his father David:​

Jesus became perfect by the things he suffered Hebrews 2:10; 5:8, means at one time he was not. I'm not saying he sinned, but there was a process. He became better then the angels Hebrews 1:4. He was lower then the angels, then he became greater then the angels Hebrews 2:9, now here he is lower then some.

It would depend on how you interpret Romans 8, but did these preexist...

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.​

There is a process the true ones must go through, to prove and show they are His sons, and foreknown. Also notice “glorified” in the past tense (Aorist Tense; Indicative Mood). He glorified them, but we have not been fully glorified as of yet Romans 8:18 “are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” This is the glory that they had with Him before the foundation of the world, as Jesus also spoke in John 17:5. We did not preexist as persons when God planed this all out.

Hello Lightray.

A revision of my previous post, I apologise.

If Jesus became greater, then there was a time he was not. Jesus had to become greater, and
John lesser, this should also help to explain a lot - John 3:30-34. That's one thing to consider.

What is there to consider about your statement?

You said Lightray and I quote, 'If Jesus became greater, then there was a time he was not'. You are
inferring that there was a time, when Jesus was not greater.

Where in the scripture does it declare that Jesus, for some period of time was not above all?

John 3
31 He who comes from above is above all.

Ephesians 4
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all.

Jesus who was above all, descended from heaven and walked with us, then ascended far above all.
Since Jesus 'descended' and 'ascended', so when was Jesus created? I do require multiple verses
that state, that Jesus was created.

Hebrews states Jesus was made and only for a short time, lower than the angels, only by an act of
humility on behalf of Jesus. Jesus apart from this temporary time of humility, was always above all
by default. Jesus descended and was not created at any time. Not once does the scripture state that
Jesus was created.

You claimed that Jesus at some time was not greater, by a cross reference to the verses below.

John 3
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the
earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

If you now read, 'He who comes from above is above all', this means John is saying, that Jesus is from
above and therefore is greater than all. John had a natural birth, hence John was from below. Jesus had
a super natural birth, Jesus descended from above, Jesus humbled Himself and took on this human image.

Philippians 2
7 but emptied Himself...and being made in the likeness of men.

CJB
Yochanan witnessed concerning him when he cried out, “This is the man I was talking about when I said,
‘The one coming after me has come to rank ahead of me, because he existed before me.’”

The right context you say, 'because he existed before me'.

Jesus existed before John the Baptist, Jesus descended from above and was above all.

4 In him [or “it” the word] was life; and the life was the light of men.

I need a translation that actually uses 'it' (autos) instead of 'him', in John (1:4). As far as I can see every
translation uses 'him' when translating autos, one translation uses the phrase 'the word'. Not even
the extremists, the Jehovah's witnesses will translate 'him' as 'it', see below.

John 1 (NWT)
4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of me

May I ask Lightray, are you fluent in the Koine Greek? Are you a qualified translator?

He says in the word was life, and the life was the light of men.

Nearly every translation says 'in Him was life', one I know of says 'the word'.

The Gospel includes every word Jesus spoke, the doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9; Deuteronomy 18:18-19;
1 Timothy 6:3; and also Matthew 4:4.

An erroneous generalization Lightray, you committed two errors in your one statement.

2 John 9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ.

This verse does not say 'includes every word Jesus spoke', that is a serious error. Jesus often spoke directly to
the Jews who were under the law, about aspects of their law. These statements (words) that Jesus made to the
Jews often, were never intended for the Gentiles.

1 Timothy 6:3
3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not all Jesus spoke about, is to be taken as sound words (doctrine). For example, '16 “Woe to you, blind guides,
who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is
obligated.’ A Gentile cannot swear by the temple, the temple was destroyed in AD 70, this is not a doctrine,
these words cannot be regarded as sound words, for say a Gentiles audience.

Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds
out of the mouth of God.”

Once again, some words from God were for the nation of Israel specifically, and other words from God were
for both Jews and Gentiles (doctrine). A classic example Lightray is circumcision, God commands Abraham
and his descendants to be circumcised, but the Gentiles are not commanded to be circumcised. Not all Jesus
spoke or that YHWH spoke was doctrine for both Jew and Gentile.

Your first generalization is unfounded and untrue.

The second error is your belief that 'the Gospel' is everything that Jesus spoke. This idea is a very wide spread
error. Paul states what the actual Gospel consists of, in his letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which
also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you
believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the
Scriptures.

If you were alert Lightray you would have realized that the death and resurrection of the Christ in the Gospel.
This is the first doctrine (first importance), the primary doctrine in Christianity. Everything else is secondary,
you must believe in Jesus Christ primarily to be saved. Lot's of people misunderstand what the term, the Gospel
really means.

And how does John witness of how Jesus is greater? Is it that Jesus is God, that Jesus preexisted as a
person? No...

You cannot make the claim that Jesus did not pre-exist. You seem to be under the impression that you can
make this claim, that Jesus did not pre-exist. Please let me inform you Lightray, you must reword your claim
in the following manner. Firstly, given that your method of interpretation is correct, which varies from the
mainstream interpretation (your credentials should be included). Then secondly, given that YOU BELIEVE
that your method of interpretation leads you to believe, that Jesus did not pre-exist. Your method of interpretation
may not in fact, actually support your claim, though you believe it does. Many folk do employ different methods
of interpretation as you have done, yet they cannot all be correct. In the end Lightray, only one single method
of interpretation will be the correct method of interpretation of the scripture.

So in the end Lightray, you must just believe that Jesus did not pre-exist a priori. Before even attempting
to employ any alternate method of translation.

Where does it say Jesus was not born of a woman? Is not a virgin a woman? Jesus does have a mother
and father, Mary, and God.

Not sure if you understand that Jesus came from above, Jesus descended into this human form.

Matthew 1
25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son.

Mary was always a virgin Lightray, Mary was not the human mother of Jesus, Mary was the surrogate mother
of Jesus. What is it that you do not see about the virgin giving birth? Mary and Joseph were not in union before
she became pregnant, thus Jesus cannot be an authentic male descendant of Adam. As you know fullwell, sin
is inherited and in Adam all die. Jesus not being a descendant of Adam, was not under this power of sin and
death.

Jesus had no human father, there is no other option to consider, the Christ is not one of us. You must obey the
scripture on this point, Mary was a virgin, and Mary as a virgin gave birth. Jesus was from above, not from the
womb of Mary by any natural process. Mary's womb was not fertilized by the Holy Spirit, Mary only received
the unborn infant by the power of the Holy Spirit. The apsotles may not have understood this phenomenon,
but they certainly knew the virgin would bear a child.

 

[Radrook]

If the Trinity was being taught by the Apostles and first-century Christians, then why was their no Jewish uproar over it during that time?

 

[Hoghead1]

Who says there wasn't? Early Christians were accused of being ditheists, for example. That wass because they said very little about the Spirit.

 

[klutedavid]

If the Trinity was being taught by the Apostles and first-century Christians, then why was their no Jewish uproar over it during that time?

Hello Radbrook.

The apostles in the decades after Christ departed, were mainly involved with the elementary
instruction regarding the Christian faith. The conversion of the Gentiles was one huge task
to deal with, obviously the apostles were fairly occupied with that.

The Romans smashed Jerusalem around AD 70, hence from that time on, the Jews
were scattered all over the world. The Jews as a force against Christianity, probably
declined rapidly after AD 70.

The Gospel was what the apostles taught, very little theology, the Christian faith
was in it's infancy. So logically the concept of the trinity would have arrived some
time after John's letters.

 

[7xlightray]

Hello Lightray.

A revision of my previous post, I apologise.

What is there to consider about your statement?

You said Lightray and I quote, 'If Jesus became greater, then there was a time he was not'. You are
inferring that there was a time, when Jesus was not greater.

Where in the scripture does it declare that Jesus, for some period of time was not above all?

PART 1 of 2

Hello klutedavid,

Sorry it took me a while, these posts are getting long, taking awhile to put it together. I also split it in two.

I did give you some understanding, like Jesus grew in wisdom, inherited a better name, became greater then the angels, baptizes with the holy spirit, there is also became immortal, and gave verses “Luke 1:32 He shall be [future] great, and shall be [future] called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give [future] unto him the throne of his father David:”
Here is another one Luke 2:51 Then He [Jesus] went down with them [his parents] and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them [his parents], but His mother kept all these things in her heart.
We obey the one greater then us.
Jesus even said, the Father is greater then I.

And then there is more understanding...

John 5:35 He [John the Baptist, he bare witness unto the truth of Jesus verses 32-34] was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.​

That Jesus spoke the truth, his light, which is the Father's, which the Father gave him to speak “he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life – verse 24,” was witness to the truth by John the Baptist (that Jesus would become greater), Jesus works that the Father gave him to do, and even the scriptures.
We can't simply say, because God is light, and Jesus is a light, that therefore Jesus is the God, for John the baptist is also a light. If John is not the God, then on the same grounds we can't say Jesus is either, that's all I'm saying, which I believe is a fair statement.

And notice what Jesus says, his witness is that the Father sent him, not that he came of his own, or that he sent himself, so the light is not his, but of the one that sent him. Jesus did and spoke all that the Father gave him to speak and do, so it is the Father's light.

Hears My word and believes in “Him” who sent. Who sent? The father sent! The Father sent Jesus to speak His (Father's) words, the Father is the “him,” and is light.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.​

John 3
31 He who comes from above is above all.

Ephesians 4
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all.

Jesus who was above all, descended from heaven and walked with us, then ascended far above all.
Since Jesus 'descended' and 'ascended', so when was Jesus created? I do require multiple verses
that state, that Jesus was created.

Hebrews states Jesus was made and only for a short time, lower than the angels, only by an act of
humility on behalf of Jesus. Jesus apart from this temporary time of humility, was always above all
by default. Jesus descended and was not created at any time. Not once does the scripture state that
Jesus was created.

It is God's word and spirit that come down from above. It is the Father's light that Jesus spoke, Jesus is the image of God. He who speaks the word of God, receiving the authority of God, his word is above all.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
​

By the one spirit the one lord Jesus received from the one God and Father. There is only one God and Father of all, and He is also the God and Father of the lord Jesus. What is so weird about this interpretation, for this is exactly what scripture says?


He who “descended into the lower parts of the earth,” would this not be referring to his death? As it goes on to say, “10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things,” Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. As also these speak of the lower parts of the earth: Psalm 63:9; Ezekiel 26:20; Ezekiel 32:24. It would not have much meaning if Jesus was God and above all, and filled all things, then descended to earth into a woman's womb, then ascended to heaven where he was before, so that he might fill all things. That's rather meaningless, for it says the Father is above all, through all and in all. So, why would Jesus need to do this if he was the same God? Paul compares the lower parts of the earth with far above all the heavens. He is comparing two extremes to fill all things. It makes sense when understood in this context Romans 14:9; Psalm 63:9; Ezekiel 26:20; Ezekiel 32:24.

The word “son” itself implies a beginning.


Psalm 139
1 O LORD [Father], You have searched me [Jesus] and known me.
3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.
13 For You [Father] formed my [Jesus] inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

The Father skillfully made Jesus in the womb. John said we must believe Jesus came in the flesh, flesh is creation, period, no doubt about it.

In the Father's (LORD) Book were the days of Jesus written, and yet there was none of them. If Jesus appeared in the Old Testament as the LORD, then there would have been these days written about Jesus in His book. So, if they were all written, yet none of them took place yet, then this is his beginning, and he did not appear in the Old Testament, otherwise there were days that took place, because he would have had days written of him appearing in the days of the Old Testament, as you say he did.

There is more coming concerning “so when was Jesus created? I do require multiple verses that state, that Jesus was created; Jesus descended and was not created at any time. Not once does the scripture state that Jesus was created.” coming next just below, where you also ask about his preexistence.

You cannot make the claim that Jesus did not pre-exist. You seem to be under the impression that you can
make this claim, that Jesus did not pre-exist. Please let me inform you Lightray, you must reword your claim
in the following manner. Firstly, given that your method of interpretation is correct, which varies from the
mainstream interpretation (your credentials should be included). Then secondly, given that YOU BELIEVE
that your method of interpretation leads you to believe, that Jesus did not pre-exist. Your method of interpretation
may not in fact, actually support your claim, though you believe it does. Many folk do employ different methods
of interpretation as you have done, yet they cannot all be correct. In the end Lightray, only one single method
of interpretation will be the correct method of interpretation of the scripture.

So in the end Lightray, you must just believe that Jesus did not pre-exist a priori. Before even attempting
to employ any alternate method of translation.

It was not required of me to show Jesus did not preexsist, it was my understanding you were going to show me Jesus is Yhwh, and the only one that is Yhwh, but I will continue, and take this opportunity.

Did Jesus father himself, or is he the Son of the Father (LORD)? Jesus did not father himself, he is the son of the Father who is the God. God is his (Jesus) God and Father.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD [Father] hath said unto me [Jesus], Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

You are going to have a hard time, and a monumental task, trying to prove to me Jesus is the only one that is the LORD – Yhwh, for Psalm 2:7 is proof to me, that Yhwh who said “Thou art my Son” could not be Jesus, but must be the Father.


I could show you with Isaiah 45, which repeats it twice, and there is that little thing where he is called son, which surely implies a beginning, one who comes after a father, pay special note to verses 4 and 5...

Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the LORD-Yhwh [Father] to his anointed [Messiah], to Cyrus [Jesus Isaiah 44:28], whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings [to put all his enemies under him], to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight [this speaks of the Father's Spirit in John the Baptist to prepare the people for the coming of His Christ. He is the one who goes before him and makes the crooked places straight, Isaiah 40:4; Luke 3:2-6]

. . .4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect [Isaiah 49:6], I have even called thee by thy name [Jesus, Luke 1:31; 49:1,6]: I have surnamed [H3655 kanah name with honor, title of honor, give an epithet or cognomen] thee, though thou hast not known me [Jeremiah 1:5,7, 9-10; John 8:26; Isaiah 49:1,6, Jesus did not know the Father before his birth].

5 I am the LORD [Father], and there is none else, there is no God [Father] beside me: I girded thee [Jesus], though thou hast not known me [Jeremiah 1:5,7, 9-10; John 8:26; Isaiah 49:1,6, Jesus did not know the Father before his birth]:

...14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee [Jesus], they shall make supplication unto thee [Jesus], saying, Surely God [Father] is in thee [Jesus]; and there is none else, there is no God [Father].
15 Verily thou art a God [Father] that hidest thyself [If you recall they did not recognize it was the Father working in Christ], O God of Israel, the Saviour [Father 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:19-20].
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.​

We can see creation in these passages...
We see the first Adam creation in this passage “God formed [H3335 – yatsar] man...

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed [H3335 - yatsar] man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed [H3335 – yatsar].​

And if you recall Paul said of that great mystery of Adam representing Christ, and Eve the church, his body, becoming one. I wont get into it, but let you ponder those Genesis chapters of God creating Adam and Eve.

Notice the word “formed [H3335 – yatsar].” Here is the second Adam...

Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me [Jesus] from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
5 And now, saith the LORD [Father] that formed [H3335 - yatsar] me [Jesus] from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I [Jesus] be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God [the Father] shall be my strength.
6 And he [LORD-Yhwh] said, It is a light thing that thou [Jesus] shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
​

And another one...

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed [H3335 – yatsar] thee in the belly I knew thee [Jesus was foreknown 1 Peter 1:20. Compare with Isaiah 45:4 and 5]; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.​

In Jeremiah 1:5 the LORD said he knew Jesus before He formed him, but in Isaiah 45:4 and 5 He says Jesus did not know Him (the LORD).

I have very good reason to believe Jesus was created, and did not preexist.


The Father-LORD is also giving Jesus as a light to the Gentiles, meaning the Father sent His servant Jesus for a light to the tribes of Jacob, and Israel. Jesus is not giving himself as a light, what I mean by this is the light is originating from the Father, or the Father is the author of the light, Who is light. The correct understanding of John 1:4 is not that Jesus was a person that was a light that came down, for Jesus the person did not go to the gentiles, but his word did, which he received from the Father, and we are to believe the word, both Jew and Gentile.

The only “credentials” that are required on our part, is to be human, and willing to receive from God. If your looking for the credentials that the Sadducees, Pharisees, and Scribes, or priests had, then what do you say about the disciples, even Jesus himself was not a Sadducee, nor Pharisee, nor a Scribe, nor Levi priest.

It's not being faithful to the majority, it's being faithful to the word of God, no matter if the many claim this, or that.

 

[7xlightray]

You claimed that Jesus at some time was not greater, by a cross reference to the verses below.

John 3
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the
earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

If you now read, 'He who comes from above is above all', this means John is saying, that Jesus is from
above and therefore is greater than all. John had a natural birth, hence John was from below. Jesus had
a super natural birth, Jesus descended from above, Jesus humbled Himself and took on this human image.

PART 2 of 2

This is referring to the spirit, Jesus mind was on the things of heaven, in heaven. Earthly men have their minds on the things of this earth. Jesus fully spoke the words of God the Father “For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God [Father] giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him [Son].” - John 3:34 then, “The Father [God] loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” - verse 35. So, God is the Father, and gave His spirit, which is from above, without measure, that Jesus would speak all the word of God. And the one that sends is greater then the one sent - John 13:16

Philippians 2
7 but emptied Himself...and being made in the likeness of men.

The right context you say, 'because he existed before me'.

Jesus existed before John the Baptist, Jesus descended from above and was above all.

I need a translation that actually uses 'it' (autos) instead of 'him', in John (1:4). As far as I can see every
translation uses 'him' when translating autos, one translation uses the phrase 'the word'. Not even
the extremists, the Jehovah's witnesses will translate 'him' as 'it', see below.

John 1 (NWT)
4 by means of him was life, and the life was the light of me

May I ask Lightray, are you fluent in the Koine Greek? Are you a qualified translator?

Nearly every translation says 'in Him was life', one I know of says 'the word'.

There is the GNV...

John 1:4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.​

...but this is not needed, for it is also translated as “it” in other verses.

John 1:4 In him [G846 - αὐτῷ] was life; and the life was the light of men.

James 5:7 ...Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it [G846 - αὐτῷ], until he receive the early and latter rain.​

In John 1:4 and James 5:7, the word: G846 – autos - αὐτῷ” is Part of Speech: Personal / Possessive Pronoun; Case: Dative; Gender: Masculine; Person: 3rd Person; Number: Singular, is both translated as “it,” and “him.” It all depends on whether it is referring to a person, or thing, and trinitarians translators understand “word” to be the preexistent person Jesus, even though “word” is an it, they translate as “he, him.” Here are a few more that are translated as “it” Matthew 21:33; 23:20,21; 1 Tim 1:8; 1 Corinthians 15:38; Revelation 10:6.

Why would the Jehovah's witnesses translate as “it,” when they believe Jesus preexisted as an angel?


I am certainly no expert, but I have learned some things.

An erroneous generalization Lightray, you committed two errors in your one statement.

2 John 9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ.

This verse does not say 'includes every word Jesus spoke', that is a serious error. Jesus often spoke directly to
the Jews who were under the law, about aspects of their law. These statements (words) that Jesus made to the
Jews often, were never intended for the Gentiles.

1 Timothy 6:3
3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not all Jesus spoke about, is to be taken as sound words (doctrine). For example, '16 “Woe to you, blind guides,
who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is
obligated.’ A Gentile cannot swear by the temple, the temple was destroyed in AD 70, this is not a doctrine,
these words cannot be regarded as sound words, for say a Gentiles audience.

Matthew 4
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds
out of the mouth of God.”

Once again, some words from God were for the nation of Israel specifically, and other words from God were
for both Jews and Gentiles (doctrine). A classic example Lightray is circumcision, God commands Abraham
and his descendants to be circumcised, but the Gentiles are not commanded to be circumcised. Not all Jesus
spoke or that YHWH spoke was doctrine for both Jew and Gentile.

Your first generalization is unfounded and untrue.

Really? We do have to use some common sense here, don't we. Jesus said, we live off of every word of God, but obviously some wisdom is needed here as well. Do you consider this an “erroneous generalization” on Jesus part?

Jesus said what he speaks he speak to the world, everyone, Jew and Gentile.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.​

The second error is your belief that 'the Gospel' is everything that Jesus spoke. This idea is a very wide spread
error. Paul states what the actual Gospel consists of, in his letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which
also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you
believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the
Scriptures.

If you were alert Lightray you would have realized that the death and resurrection of the Christ in the Gospel.
This is the first doctrine (first importance), the primary doctrine in Christianity. Everything else is secondary,
you must believe in Jesus Christ primarily to be saved. Lot's of people misunderstand what the term, the Gospel
really means.

Yes, that is the start, or beginning, but it's not all, like the kingdom of God, and others, I would not say all is secondary, for one, there is love, and, well, I would suggest at least reading all of Ephesians 3 with Matthew 4:23. I also found this, so I'm not the only one that understands this...

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2098 euaggélion – the Gospel – literally, "God's good news." See 2097 (euangelizō). The Gospel (2098 /euaggélion) includes the entire Bible, i.e. it is not limited to how a person becomes a Christian.​

Then there is also this...

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him [so we better be sure who “him” is] that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead [who raised Jesus from the dead? The Father];

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth [using your mouth is a doing 2 Corinthians 4:13-14] the Lord Jesus [and lets not forget 2 Timothy 2:19], and shalt believe in thine heart that God [which God? the Trinity? the Son? the Father? who raised him from the dead? because this is whom we must believe in our heart. And I will tell you, Jesus did not literally raise himself from the dead] hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

There is a reason Paul states it this way, focusing on faith for the most part, because the Jews already have zeal, eagerness to do, for Paul believes and teaches as James does, only it can take him longer to say, faith without works is dead faith. Believing and acting go hand in hand, they can't be separated. We can't say we believe one thing, then do another.

It starts with faith, this is true, but a good tree, does not produce bad fruit. If what's inside is good, then it will produce good fruit. Our actions show the true nature of our heart. The beginning is believing the truth.

For “James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” is saying, yes, believing in one God is very important, but believing in one God alone is not enough, it must produce something, as the demons believe in one God, but do not have good works, the love of God. We must have both, believe in One God, and love, good works.

1 John 2 says a similar thing “3 Now by this we know that we know Him [Jesus], if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His [Jesus] word, truly the love of God [Father] is perfected in him [for Jesus spoke the word of God the Father]. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Not sure if you understand that Jesus came from above, Jesus descended into this human form.

Matthew 1
25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son.

Mary was always a virgin Lightray, Mary was not the human mother of Jesus, Mary was the surrogate mother
of Jesus. What is it that you do not see about the virgin giving birth? Mary and Joseph were not in union before
she became pregnant, thus Jesus cannot be an authentic male descendant of Adam. As you know fullwell, sin
is inherited and in Adam all die. Jesus not being a descendant of Adam, was not under this power of sin and
death.

Jesus had no human father, there is no other option to consider, the Christ is not one of us. You must obey the
scripture on this point, Mary was a virgin, and Mary as a virgin gave birth. Jesus was from above, not from the
womb of Mary by any natural process. Mary's womb was not fertilized by the Holy Spirit, Mary only received
the unborn infant by the power of the Holy Spirit. The apostles may not have understood this phenomenon,
but they certainly knew the virgin would bear a child.

Of course Mary was a virgin. Why you are you even arguing Mary was a virgin, is beyond me. I would agree, that Mary was a virgin. The word became flesh, but there is more.

Yes, “in Adam all die” though Jesus did die, not for his own sins, of course.
God is spirit, He does not have flesh and blood.

Jesus is not one of us??? Did I misunderstand you? 1 John 4:2-3. Scripture states Jesus was a man, that part is very clear. Hebrews 2:14

I have no problem in God using Mary's egg, and bypassing Adam's Y chromosome, and Adding a new Y chromosome. God said, the woman's seed (DNA) it shall bruise thy head. The scripture say by one man sin entered into the world.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
15 ...For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

Eve's was not willful sin, Adam's was. Woman's seed has two XX, man's seed XY. Man passes his seed onto all. If Mary was only a “surrogate mother” then it was not the woman's seed as is stated in Genesis 3. So, at the very least, IMO, Mary's seed (egg, DNA) would have to be partly involved, with possibly God supplying the male seed (Y).