In light of Lent (Pre-Lenten preparation) coming up Came across this recently and was very blessed by the perspective when it comes to seeing the example of Christ and what he and the Early Church lived out with regards to God's acceptance...
As she noted best, 'The Orthodox Church never denied "an 'ecclesial' reality among the heterodox." There are, as St. John Chrysostom writes, bits and pieces of "ecclesial reality" outside the Church. This is why the baptism of heretics is recognized time and again. But the "plenitude" of Truth is to be found only in the One Church." From someone who entered the Orthodox Church 6 yrs ago, the tone, attitude and balance of what she said is very encouraging as I know and have seen the Holy Spirit working in the lives of faithful Christians outside the Orthodox Church for decades and I've been blessed to do excellent work with others within/outside of Orthodoxy in various ways..
For anyone wanting more clarity on the issue, I am very open/upfront on the diverse background I had growing up. Elsewhere, I've shared before on how I grew up going to Catholic Churches...more so within the Black community (
here and
here/
here,
here,
here, and
here and
here) - with what I experienced in the Catholic school I attended and what my sister/mother both experienced (as Afro-Hispanics) being radically different than what I saw lived out in differing Catholic Churches when there did not seem to be a lot of emphasis on the community/social justice and the poor......or a dynamic of not getting satisfied within Catholicism with regards to learning on how to be devout/love your neighbors.
But with my experience being with communities who needed a lot of help practically and were willing to work with others to get things accomplished, I witnessed consistently the narrative that it takes working cross-culturally for the Body of Christ to be effective in what it was designed to do.
Growing up as it concerns my experiences with Traditional churches, it was not odd to hear discussed the ways that Catholics and Baptists or Baptists and Anglicans or Charismatics and Orthodox needed to learn how to work together in order to be a light in our culture. Others may be uncomfortable, but I will always be reminded on the example of Archbishop Iakovos when he joined with Martin Luther King and networked to deal with significant issues in his time like discrimination, prejudice and many things that defined the Civil Rights era and are still present today in the same forms:
I will ALWAYS be thankful for the examples o
f other Baptist preachers who made it possible for me to have the Civil Rights I have today - as seen with others like MLK and others fighting for equal rights as is the clear case with
Archbishop Iakovos of America marching with Dr. King and
his working with other Southern Baptists for a reason that many did not like......and it
took a lot for them to do as they did.
It took working cross-culturally to make a lot of things happen - and a lot of that occurs when you're theologically fluent in what others believe and understanding that I don't have to look like you to see where God's Image is in you and where others are not respecting God's Image in both of us. And many of these interactions involved those from a High Church culture. As another noted best when speaking on the film known as Selma (on the history of the Civil Rights) - as seen in The KKK, Selma, and Southern Christianity:
During the film, we learn about the murder of Jimmie Lee Jackson, a young African-American protestor, who was gunned down in a town near Selma. After his murder by police, King issued a clarion call to anyone in America who wanted come to Selma and join him in the cause to fight for voting rights.
As a theologian, this is where the movie became really interesting. Those who joined King were mainly Jewish, Protestant mainliners from the North, Roman Catholics, and Greek Orthodox. Conspicuously absent were conservative Protestant evangelicals, especially those from the South. In fact, Archbishop Iakovos of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America was the highest ranking non-black religious figure in America to join King in the Selma march. This raised several questions for me: What was different about Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic traditions that allowed them to freely join the fight for voting rights while evangelicals chose to do nothing or join the cause to support Jim Crow? Where were the Calvinists who believed in total depravity? Where were the evangelicals? Where was Billy Graham? Where were the Jonathan Edwards fans? Where were the Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, Methodists, and so on? I am asking because I do not understand.
And as another noted best in
Sometimes the World is Black and White: Archbishop ...:
In the years that followed Selma—marked by the subsequent legislative triumphs initiated by the Civil Rights Movement, and the expanding enlightenment of society around race and equality—more and more people, including the vast majority of Greek Orthodox Americans, came to appreciate Archbishop Iakovos’ role in the Civil Rights Movement. Today, Greek Orthodox Christians in America rightly take reflective pride in the courage, vision, and dignity that Archbishop Iakovos displayed in the face of hatred, racism, and persecution. Iakovos, unlike most of his white hierarchical contemporaries in the Roman Catholic and major Protestant Churches, especially during the early years of the Civil Rights Movement, was a consistently outspoken foe of racial intolerance and inequality throughout his entire period of archiepiscopal leadership. Indeed, eulogizing the Archbishop’s death in 2005, Rev. King’s widow, Coretta Scott King, reflected that “at a time when many of the nation’s most prominent clergy were silent, Archbishop Iakovos courageously supported our Freedom Movement and marched alongside my husband, and he continued to support the nonviolent movement against poverty, racism and violence throughout his life.”
Without a doubt, Iakovos’ personal life experience growing up persecuted and discriminated against as an Orthodox Christian in Kemalist Turkey significantly influenced his unique perspective and distinguished him from other white major religious leaders in America. Archbishop Iakovos knew all too well the harsh realities that defined life as a member of a minority traumatized by a history of enslavement. Growing up as a Greek Orthodox Christian and citizen of the Republic of Turkey he had confronted daily the legacy of enslavement: the humiliations and insecurity that came with living in a society where his basic freedoms and rights were denied, where persecution, oppression, and arbitrary violence against his community were commonplace and justified by law. Given his past, Iakovos identified with African Americans in ways that most Americans, including most Greek Americans, were never aware of or could never fully comprehend.
Ultimately, it was Iakovos’ faith that decisively determined his engagement with the world. In short, the Archbishop was an unwavering, consistent advocate of the Civil Rights Movement because he was an Orthodox Christian, in deed and action, not only in word. For Iakovos, some of the most basic principles of Orthodoxy—freedom, equality, justice, and the dignity and worth of all lives—were existential realities for all of humanity, because of God’s grace. Denying people basic rights, persecuting individuals and communities on the basis of race, religion, or culture, constituted a rupture with God because it desecrated our sacred responsibility to accept and love all of humanity and to recognize that each and every person, regardless of race, is created in the image of God. At Selma, Iakovos took the very unpopular action, at that time, to stand alongside Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., in defense of the powerless, the disenfranchised, the downtrodden, and the poor because the Archbishop not only preached theology, he lived Orthodoxy. Iakovos was determined to bring the beauty of his faith and Church into the real and sometimes ugly and brutal world, locking arms with Rev. King as a sign that we all must participate in transforming the world around us.
There was no ambiguity in Archbishop Iakovos’ decision to embark upon the road to Selma—for him it was a moral obligation. He truly revered and practiced the tenets of Orthodox Christianity, including the realization that there are moral absolutes, that often there is a right and a wrong, that, indeed, the world is sometimes black and white, and that such truths warrant recognition and action in their defense. This is the fundamental lesson to be drawn by the noble, inspiring example set by Archbishop Iakovos at Selma.
The work between Protestants and non-Protestants did not simply happen with that example alone as it concerns Orthodoxy and the Baptist Church as the same dynamics regarding God's heart for justice happened in other ways as well. God said "Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts." (Amos 5:15) and I am glad for pastors/leaders respecting the issue to call it what it is when it came to noting the power of God's working in the entire Body....people coming to mind like
Rev. Theodore M. Hesburgh in the legacy he left behind -
and for leaving behind things that still stand out to this day ....and thankful for radical Catholics working with radical Protestants to deal with things in radical times.
Of course, I've seen within the Body of Christ where there has often been an unwillingness to work across the isle due to theological concerns - and of course, I can understand that. But there are differing ways others within Liturgical Ancient Church Traditions can go about this process without feeling like they cannot connect with others not a part of the Early Church model or having fullness. Being Orthodox, I will speak from the Orthodox perspective predominately - but on the issue, awhile back there was an interesting article on the issue that seemed to really address the issue well of what happens when there are discussions on unity within/outside of Orthodoxy. As said there (for a brief excerpt):
A
From what I have encountered, most Orthodox see that some light exists outside of Orthodoxy, but the fullness of the faith only exists inside of it. As Father Georges Florovsky essentially stated, we can see the canonical boundaries of The Church, but not the charismatic boundaries of it.
Christ can be and is encountered outside of the One Church – that is how converts are drawn in. I, too, am a Protestant who has been exploring Orthodoxy and am preparing to be a Catechumen. I have met Christ outside and no Orthodox I have engaged with, including the Priests I have spoken much with, have ever denied that – but they have all affirmed that the fullness of the Faith lies only in Orthodoxy.
I think the economia extended by most (though not all) Orthodox dioceses towards those baptized in other Christian traditions in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when Protestants are received into Orthodoxy through Chrismation is a testimony that they believe there has been an encounter – that there is “something” there, but it is a shadow of the fullness.
For me, my experience growing up Presbyterian to Campus Crusade in college and evangelicalism later was all a part of the encounter that has led me to where I am now. A seed was planted when I was a teenager to find the early Church, though I decided to work from the present back to the past instead of beginning with Scripture and then proceeding on to Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, etc. I think our cultural bias to prefer newer things (theology, scholarship, and writings in general) had an influence. It’s newer, so it must be better. That is so different from ancient thought where it was believed that those closer to the Creation were much wiser than those that came later. Law of Entropy, anyone?
That article came to mind a
fter one of my dear friends noted something in his own article (from an Oriental perspective) and he was glad I was able to share the article with him since it really helped - believing ourselves to be the One True Church doesn't mean that we believe no one else is a part of the Body of Christ or unable to be worked with/used by Him. You do not need uniformity in order to have unity in Christ
In light of the many discussions on the matter, what I've witnessed is that what Orthodox means (as the Orthodox Church considers herself "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic") and what Protestants hear are different things, because they come at it from opposite understandings......
More specifically, what one may hear depends on what it is that they are able to see as well. Hearing someone say (As an example) "I hate religion!!!" will bring a different image to their mind when they hear of and make them think the person is not one for organization or any spirituality whatsoever - and in many cases, it does mean that exactly. However, when having a real life conversation/relationship with others (like another Christian brother or sister in arms) where you see their heart and see who they are and what they actually do, they can say the same phrase of "I hate religion!!" and know they do not mean that they are against organization/disciplines ....and your image is impacted in what you see mentally since you understand they are coming at things from an entirely different perspective with regards to them being against anything that is done for its own sake but divorced from the heart of God. Some of this I say in light of a conversation held back in 2012 called
"Why I Hate Religion, But I Love Jesus" video + Orthodox rebuttal
But on how relationship/interaction actually impacts our vision and what it is that we see, I do think a lot of it is at play when it comes to what Protestants are able to experience of Orthodox when it comes to how they may see it. Not all Protestants were ever remotely the same or coming from the same trajectory - but based on what other Orthodox have heard, their vision is already impacted before seeing them ....and the same goes for the Protestants in what they hear when they see Orthodoxy, as many encountered over-zealous converts saying anything not Orthodox was garbage and then witnessed them break ties with family/friends or denouncing them at every turn - leading Protestants to think that being Orthodox implies hating anything not part of the Orthodox world.
And in those cases, what got their attention in a healthy manner was experiencing other Orthodox who were easy to relate to.... I've seen others, as a case study, within EO who were shocked that converts were trying to rail saying that somehow anyone not part of EO was not part of the one True Church and automatically 'unsaved' when there was no basis for them saying as they did. I've seen others in EO surprised at people assuming they could ever say they know the Holy Spirit does not work within the Protestant world or actively use others there to reach out to the unsaved. It all goes back to what actually occurs - and of course, I've been thankful for the Orthodox I've encountered who have been more than excited to work with Protestants/anyone willing to preach the Gospel since it offers the opportunity to show who the Lord is to the world - and to clarify with others (unaware of Orthodoxy) what life is actually like with the Orthodox since it is often seen as mysterious by others outside of it.
I'm thankful for the Orthodox I've met/had relationship with who have a mindset of "Come and See" and are open about what they believe while also working with others where they're at. This for me is something that needs to be more visible since many are not even aware of where the Church itself has already done work with Protestants on several occasions and not seen it as a problem. There is much cross-polinization of thought that seems to have always occurred within Orthodoxy - and saying that someone is a part of the One True Church does not mean that they are able to say that no one else is a part of God's Body. Having the right atmosphere for how things plays out impacts a lot of what is or isn't discussed.
I just got back from a retreat back in February where one of my good friends goes to
Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church and yet we got to work serving other men in demonstrating the love of God for people with a myriad of broken situations......praying with them to know the heart of the Father and yet also enjoying what the Lord was doing in our lives as well as the lives of other Protestants there. One of the actual Protestant leaders (Baptist) spoke there on the need for others to do more study on the sacraments/historical review and it was fun being able to be open on where we stand while keeping Christ central. The organization we worked in was entitled
Tres Dias (more
here,
here and
here) which is basically a 3-day weekend for encouragement/support of believers in Christ.
With my friend, I've always been blessed by how he is Greek Orthodox and yet he had no issue working with others in differing faiths---and not having a mindset of misrepresenting what others believe simply because they're not Orthodoox or giving the impression to others that said "I'll only respect/talk to you once you believe as I believe..."
We discuss the reality of Orthodox Brotherhoods lik
e Brotherhood of St. Moses the Black with Fr.Moses Berry (whom my spiritual father used to work with before) and
Brotherhood of St. Herman of Alaska and many other Monastic Brotherhoods ...and of course, we got to discuss others we valued, such as my friend's spiritual father Fr. Paul (whom I've had friendship with
- was so excited to see him becoming a priest!!!)....as Fr.Paul REALLY encouraged me on several occasions and was a life-saver when I had a very bad situation where I was slandered badly - his wisdom helped me navigate things a lot. With my Greek Orthodox friend, it's a blessing discussing how wow we are able to network with other Orthodox in our area, some in places like
St Basil's Orthodox Mission (OCA) (https://www.facebook.com/St-Basil-Orthodox-Mission-653315421382997/ ) who also network with Protestants .....I was surprised when last summer one of my good friends (who's Protestant) noted how one of his best friends attended St. Basil and I thought "Seriously?? Small world!" With other places networking has occurred , it has been wild seeing first hand how family/friends at St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Church of Atlanta actually had active relationship with other Russian Orthodox - as was the case when one of my Coptic friends (a linguist and scholar on differing types of liturgy) noted his experiences in going to one of the churches in our area called St. Mary of Egypt Orthodox Church - always being welcomed anytime/having wonderful discussions ... and of course, seeing that my Coptic friend/others where he is already work with other EO often in sharing works together, it's not a surprise. Witnessing this firsthand after going to Divine Liturgy with them and prayer, including recently to see the The Kursk-Root Icon, it has made me remember how odd it is when others seek to have what can be akin to a xenophobic attitude toward anything they do not understand or haven't experienced
My good friend/sister in Christ Thekla and I once discussed the issue on Facebook considering our own backgrounds when I told her on some of the work I've seen within Orthodoxy and some of the things not well known.
@Philothei and I discussed it as well, as it concerns what has happened before where the Patriarchs were ignored and folks still tried to claim that somehow tried to claim things based on an older era that is not present.....as seen, for example, with regards to how others often assume anything Oriental Orthodox is not connected with Eastern Orthodox - and thus are unable to actually listen to the facts when seeing OO in intercommunion with EO (Antiochians with Syriac Orthodox as an example and I've experienced that numerous times already) or Official Statements from the Bishops.
@Philothei ,o
ne of the older members on CF, was always able to address the dynamic whenever we talked and it is always an interesting thing seeing others having to take some time understanding if explaining that Antiochian Orthodox have worked with Syrian Orthodox (Oriental) - with others in the camp identifying with them/having family present whom they discuss with and in that sense being OO while also identifying with EO (my situation personally.....as I've
shared here and
here/h
ere).
For some in EO, they automatically assume that an OO referencing something from EO must somehow mean that they 'left' OO - and the same goes for others on the OO side when seeing EO reference things pertaining to the EO side. It's difficult for others to really comprehend the fact that both things can occur with intercommunion....but others are able to understand it thankfully. In example,
my going to see His Holiness Pope Tawadros II (very precious to me and others in OO) or enjoying discussing Miracles of Pope Kyrillos
because of background in the Syriac Orthodox Church (especially i
n regards to my Jewish heritage) would not be opposite of my passion for the Antiochian Orthodox Church because of my background in that (as my spiritual father was an EO Monk/priest who also worked with others OO). And of course, when seeing that they already had intercommunion with the Syriac Orthodox Church and are connected, there's no issue for me.
And at the end of the day, seeing the nuanches, it's better for me to say 'it's complicated"
when explaining your journey...
It's really easy to stereotype a lot of things in the Orthodox world - and that's not surprising since many others do not have understanding of some of the workings of the Antiochian world.
In example, Thekla and I were once discussing how odd it is that people make Orthodoxy out to not believe Protestants have the Holy Spirit operating in them when there is already active work showing otherwise.....and within the
Antiochian Church, we've already worked with Protestants before on civil issues. As an example, one group others can investigate which Antiochians are a part of:
CCT is a coalition of five Church Families, Historic Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical/Pentecostal, and Historic Black along with Christian service organizations. The Orthodox representation in this organization continues to be the same six Orthodox jurisdictions, three Eastern (Antiochian, Greek, OCA) and three Oriental (Armenian, Coptic, Syrian). All proclamations and statements issued by CCT are the result of consensus by the member bodies.......
CCT in a Nutshell
Christian Churches Together provides a context – marked by prayer, worship and fellowship—in which churches can develop relationships with other churches with whom they presently have little contact. This is one response to our Lord’s Prayer that all who believe in Him might be one with God and with one another so that the world would believe in Him as God and Savior.
CCT offers the possibility of face-to-face relationships with participants across denominational/Christian community lines or racial/ethnic divisions. As participants grow closer together in Christ, differences are better understood and commonalities affirmed. In praying and studying the scripture together, spiritual resources are deepened and prophetic voices strengthened. There are new possibilities for shared witness, new coalitions formed among churches on various issues. CCT, out of its commitment to grow closer together in Christ, offers a significant and credible voice in speaking to contemporary culture on issues of life, social justice and peace.
Besides that, There were some good discussion articles made by another Orthodox brother whom I've followed for awhile. He's a priest and goes under the name OrthoCuban. For more:
And of course, you also have others who work with Orthodoxy in the fact that they study patristics and work in the Protestant world seeing what Christ is about, like like
Thomas Oden, one of the most prominent
Paleo-orthodox theologians‎ and one who is very passionate about patristics (especially in regards to African saints/churches ...as seen
here and
here /
here )), just as it's the case that others within Orthodoxy are evangelical/connected to that world (such as Bradley Nassif of
Simply Orthodox | Ancient Faith Ministries
...or
Metropolitan Kallistos Ware--concerning his speaking often on Orthodox and Evangelicals learning from one another...) or reference materials by others in the world outside of Orthodoxy - such as what has often occurred whenever reference is made to others great Christian thinkers such as
C.S Lewis....the one many still feel was an underground/covert Orthodox for many various reasons w
hen examining his stances and
articulation of them
Ultimately, The focus is working with believers in the Body to strengthen them and help Christ be glorified - even though it is understood where fullness may be present more so than other places by others. Noting
where there's fullness of truth in one place - as said in Orthodoxy - doesn't equate to saying there is no truth in other places or that others can't learn from other places.
Many in the Early Church who were Church Fathers/leaders didn't have the mindset that all things in the Church were close to perfect or that being involved in other parts of Christendom were a negative since (as said in Orthodoxy) "We know where God is but we don't know where He isn't
Others may not be complete in understanding as we understand it - or where we think they should be - but they are believers in the Lord whom Christ works in....and as the Lord said, "
no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us." (
Mark 9:39-41 ). Our desire to have others come to our way of thinking can often be used to cloud the reality of where others belong first/foremost to Christ and what Christ is doing where they're at which we can be thankful for.
As another Orthodox
said best
Everything good and everything bad that can be found in any church of any denomination can also be found in some form or another within the Orthodox Church....None of the arguments pro and con convince me either way. The Church is the Church is the Church...When God the Father looks at the Church the only people He sees there are those whom He has drawn to His Son Jesus, and no others.
....Dont you think that the spirit in me recognizes the spirit in another man whether he even calls himself a Christian or not, as being my brother in Christ?
....In Christ we are a meek and faithful bunch, but in the world we are the most anarchisticand uncooperative of mankind. Its no wonder the world hates us, whether we are Orthodox or not, Christian or not, religious or not, articulate or not.
The important thing is, whose friend are we? God's or the world's?
As said elsewhere, You really don't see believers across the boards knowing how to be neighbors - or ability to talk/encourage one another if they don't support us fully - and we end up diminishing the work of the Lord in others while exalting it in ourselves. ...and yet we could have done so much more good learning how to discuss so as to help
others either cross over in God's time or know how things are so as to help not allow ignorant comments/stereotypes to occur on what we value in a camp.
As another noted best when it comes to the
issue of crossing over and how that occurs (for a brief excerpt):
I am glad in that my former home church provided me with a warm Christ centered fellowship where I could study Scripture, and read up on theology and church history. I found it quite frustrating that many of my Evangelical friends were not able to understand the questions I had about the basis for Protestant theology. So when I became Orthodox, many were surprised and a little confused, but we remain friends. My experience has been more like a friendly border crossing. I picked up my belongings and one Sunday morning I crossed the border into the Orthodox Church. ...I feel sad for those whose transition has been marked by suspicion and judgment. It is my hope that open relations between Protestants and Orthodoxy will not be replaced by a Cold War atmosphere marked by barbed wires and aloof guards with grim stares. Barbed wires and restricted exit are signs of defensiveness and tyranny. An open and healthy society is marked by hospitality to strangers and mutual respect among its members. More preferable is a Glasnost in which Protestants can read up on the early church fathers and the Ecumenical Councils, and investigate the issues of icons, the Virgin Mary, and liturgical worship. In this period of openness curious Protestants should feel they have the freedom to visit the Orthodox worship services and come back with questions about what they saw. The best defense is not: Those people are wrong! but Come and see!
And you can learn something from everyone - just as it is in the classroom on college or on the job. As another individual noted when it came to issue of noting what you lose by not becoming Orthodox:
Everyone who is seeking God is on a path, or road, to finding Him. When you drive down any given road there are things put in place to help you stay on the road and know how to get to your destination: pavement, lane dividers, signs, guard rails, lights, etc. The more of those things there are, the better chance you have of staying on the road. But the more of those things you take away, the more likely it is that you might lose your way, veer off the road, and not get to your destination.
What one loses by not being Orthodox is all these "helps" on the road. All that Christ has given the Church was given to her in order to help us stay on the right road, going in the right direction. The Scriptures, Councils, icons, incense, etc, are there in order to help us stay on the path of finding the True God and coming to know Him. The farther one goes from Orthodoxy, the more of these aids one loses, and the more likely it is that one will no longer be seeking the true Christ.
To be sure, just because one is Orthodox doesn't mean that one will stay on the road. I can ignore the signs and drive off the road thinking I know my way better than the Church. Also, many people who are not Orthodox are on a path to finding Christ, and just because someone doesn't have all the benefits that Christ has given to the Church doesn't mean that they will necessarily veer off the road or that they won't reach their destination. So not only can we not say that non-Orthodox will not be saved, but we also cannot say that all Orthodox will be saved. The signs and guardrails on the road do not guarantee a successful trip, nor does the lack thereof guarantee a disaster.
