Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[BobRyan]

I will gladly reply to your questions after you reply to my last post. Please give a reason, if you are able, that my thoughts are wrong or just admit you cannot. Fair enough?

If you have an actual post you are referencing - point to it please.

I
We should care less what ellen wrote

-- as it turns out - you can't make every thread "about Ellen White" - that solution has been repeatedly debunked.

, what the papacy wrote or what some protestants wrote. What does the Bible tell us?

Hint - the Catholic argument I quoted is focused on "What does the Bible tell us" -- were you ever able to meet that challenge??

It tells is that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law, the law would not change in any way, until all was finished.

Not looking good for the ol' get rid of God's Commandments - side of the fence in that case.

2Cor3:7-11 tells us that the 10 commandments were temporary

No it does not -- you tell us that, not the Bible.
2 Cor 3:7-11 is a great place NOT to find the words "the 10 commandments were temporary"

(how could they have been temporary unless Jesus finished the old laws?) and now we are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This document by Paul tell us us that indeed the old law of Sabbaths and all the rituals were finished. How else could he have written Gal 3 and Col 2:17?

"The REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" - Heb 4.

Neither Gal3 nor all of Col 2 - nor any part of it - say that the ten commandments are abolished or that they are downsized to NINE or that the 7th day Sabbath was abolished.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

Only yesterday I was in favour of keeping the sabbath, but new evidence has come to light.

In Acts of the apostles the deciples break bread on Sunday.

Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[BukiRob]

Well, I don't accept that electricity is fire. But yes, my oven uses a flame. Turning a switch kindles a flame. I don't use my oven on Shabbat.

Mine is all electric. Beyond that, I dont think that turning a switch is kindling a fire... but you have to do what your own mind convicts you of

 

[Bob S]

Only yesterday I was in favour of keeping the sabbath, but new evidence has come to light.

In Acts of the apostles the deciples break bread on Sunday.

Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Amen! my friend. Soon you will discover many more reasons that days do not matter in the salvation issue.

 

[Soyeong]

Only yesterday I was in favour of keeping the sabbath, but new evidence has come to light.

In Acts of the apostles the deciples break bread on Sunday.

Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

There's is nothing wrong with eating together any day of the week, that implies nothing about not keeping the Sabbath. The people in Colossians were being judged by those who were teaching man-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body (Colossians 2:20-23), so they were keeping the Sabbath a religious festivals as God had commanded and Paul was encouraging them to let anyone keep them from obeying God.

 

[Soyeong]

Amen! my friend. Soon you will discover many more reasons that days do not matter in the salvation issue.

Sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), and salvation is from sin, so our salvation involves being saved from not obeying God's Sabbath and festivals.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

Tricky subject, the bible can be confusing.

Lots of elements tie into thus subject

1, are we under the law?
2, is St Paul really a christian (not my opinion)
3, why can we not keep day 1 and 7? (Would this place us under the law?)
4, Catholics are under the law, why don't they keep all 10?
5, does Paul writing controdict that of some of the other apostles
6, why is Peter the 1st Pope of Rome? Wasn't Paul the apostle to the Gentiles?


These are the kind of questions I have floating around my head, day in day out, so many questions no one to give me answers.

 

[Meowzltov]

Flint and magnifying glass are clearly the fastest - but how often are you suddenly stranded - and just-so happen to have a magnifying glass or flint on hand? I can't remember all the ones he showed - but he had several variations of the "rubbing two sticks" thing -- one of which has to do with drilling a hole in a piece of wood with a knife then getting the point of another stick to spin in the whole until you get enough friction for the kindling in the whole to ignite.

I agree that rubbing two sticks together is an arduous task. It is hard for me to imagine starting a fire this way! Thank goodness for technology. So much that we take for granted, isn't there.

 

[BukiRob]

Amen! my friend. Soon you will discover many more reasons that days do not matter in the salvation issue.

anyone who tries to argue that observing the commandments is linked to Salvation does not know what they are saying. Observance is a matter of being like the obedient son or like the prodigal son... you either are an obedient child or you are not. If you are disobedient you are still a son.

 

[Soyeong]

Tricky subject, the bible can be confusing.

Lots of elements tie into thus subject

1, are we under the law?
2, is St Paul really a christian (not my opinion)
3, why can we not keep day 1 and 7? (Would this place us under the law?)
4, Catholics are under the law, why don't they keep all 10?
5, does Paul writing controdict that of some of the other apostles
6, why is Peter the 1st Pope of Rome? Wasn't Paul the apostle to the Gentiles?


These are the kind of questions I have floating around my head, day in day out, so many questions no one to give me answers.

1.) No, we are not under the law, but Paul did not understand that phrase to mean that we were free to not obey the law because disobeying the law is sin and we are not permitted to sin.

2.) Yes.

3.) Would keeping the four laws mentioned in Acts 15:20 constitute as being under the law? I think not. It's perfectly fine to worship on the 1st day if you want, but that does not excuse you from also keeping the Sabbath.

4.) No one who is in Christ is under the law's power to condemn us to death for transgressing it (Romans 8:1), but those who are in Christ bear much good fruit (John 15:8-10), do good works (Ephesians 2:8-10), walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6), and practice righteous and refrain from practicing sin (1 John 3:4-10), all in accordance with the law. We are to practice righteousness in obedience to the law because God has declared us to be righteous by faith. The law is God's instructions for how the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4).

5.) No.

6.) He wasn't.

 

[BukiRob]

Tricky subject, the bible can be confusing.

Lots of elements tie into thus subject

1, are we under the law?
2, is St Paul really a christian (not my opinion)
3, why can we not keep day 1 and 7? (Would this place us under the law?)
4, Catholics are under the law, why don't they keep all 10?
5, does Paul writing controdict that of some of the other apostles
6, why is Peter the 1st Pope of Rome? Wasn't Paul the apostle to the Gentiles?


These are the kind of questions I have floating around my head, day in day out, so many questions no one to give me answers.

1) we are free from the "law of sin and death" this is NOT the same as the Torah

2) Paul was a Jewish scholar who had a radical transformation and became a follower of Messiah. Still FULLY Jewish but a believer that Messiah had come in the form of Yeshua (Jesus)

3) There is absolutely no issue with worshiping on the first day. Indeed the book of Acts tells us that they gathered DAILY. Sabbath is a day SET APART BY G-d who is man to tell G-d that the DAY HE DECREED to be HOLY is no longer holy???

4) Messiah said, if you LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.... Yeshua is TORAH in the FLESH

5) there is no contradiction between Paul's writings and the rest of scripture only those who try to pervert what Paul was saying.

6) Peter was not the first pope of Rome.... totally made up story.

 

[BukiRob]

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for two things. The first was their hypocrisy -- no practicing what they were preaching. The second was getting their priorities wrong; they were obeying their traditions but not the basics of the Torah, and Jesus told them to do BOTH (Matthew 23:23).

Neither of those objections means that we shouldn't give heed to their scholarship of Torah. Actually in Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus says they sit on the seat of Moses (teach with authority).

Yeshua flat out, straight up accused them of defering to their traditions in plain violation of the decree's.

 

[Meowzltov]

1, are we under the law?

Being under the law means obeying the law is the only way to gain eternal life. In that sense we are not under the law. No one is. No one has ever been. Although there was a heresy that claimed the law brought eternal life. Now on the other hand, we ARE to obey the law, that much is clear. It is an obligation. We are not to murder, steal, commit idolatry, etc.

2, is St Paul really a christian (not my opinion)

Could you explain what you think a Christian is, and why you think Paul does not qualify?

3, why can we not keep day 1 and 7? (Would this place us under the law?)

As a Hebrew Catholic, I DO keep both days 1 and 7. I attend Mass on Sunday, and I rest on Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) sometimes attending Synagogue. All completely kosher with Rome. For me it fits together like a hand in a glove -- just like it did for the Jewish believers in Acts.

4, Catholics are under the law, why don't they keep all 10?

Catholics are not under the law, we don't gain heaven by merely keeping the law -- no one keeps the law perfectly. As Catholics, we depend upon the GRACE of God through Christ's atoning sacrifice.

As far as keeping all ten, I need to make two remarks. The first is that Gentiles are not required to keep Mosaic law, only universal law. One of the purposes of keeping the Sabbath is to remember that God brought Israel out of slavery and delivered us from Egypt. Gentiles were never enslaved in Egypt. Keeping the Sabbath was never a command given to Gentiles.

The second thing is that the CC transferred the SOLEMNITY of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday). That's why the CC often speaks of Sunday as though it were the Sabbath. We KNOW it is not the Sabbath. If you go to our encyclopedia and look under Sabbath, it will say Friday Sundown to Saturday sundown. So when we are talking about a Sunday Sabbath, we are speaking of the SOLEMNITY ONLY. Nonetheless, we do believe that much about the commandment regarding keeping the Sabbath is in fact being kept by Catholics.

5, does Paul writing controdict that of some of the other apostles

On a superficial level, it seems that Paul and James conflict over faith and works. However, on closer inspection, one sees that both leave out the word ALONE. Paul says that faith saves, but he never says faith ALONE. James says that works justify, but he never says works ALONE. We can therefore form a comprehensive understanding that there is ONE THING, a working faith, that saves.

6, why is Peter the 1st Pope of Rome? Wasn't Paul the apostle to the Gentiles?

What does being the apostle to the Gentiles have to do with it? Being the head of the entire church means that you encompass churches that are both Gentile and Jew, that you are over missionaries both to the Gentiles and to the Jews. Christ in Matthew gave the keys of authority to Peter, he said to peter, you are the rock and on this rock I will build my church. He did not do this for Paul.

These are the kind of questions I have floating around my head, day in day out, so many questions no one to give me answers.

Ask and you shall be answered.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I know Peter was the Bishop of Jerusalem

Wouldn't Paul of been the Bishop of Rome?

I have been reading some toxic writing about Paul last few days, need some questions answering.

 

[Soyeong]

Being under the law means obeying the law is the only way to gain eternal life. In that sense we are not under the law. No one is. No one has ever been. Although there was a heresy that claimed the law brought eternal life. Now on the other hand, we ARE to obey the law, that much is clear. It is an obligation. We are not to murder, steal, commit idolatry, etc.

The law was never given as the means to gain eternal life in the first place, so we can't be no longer under that we weren't under in the first place.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I won't talk about what I have read about Paul, I won't pass the toxic measage on.

But the Catholic Church the more I learn about its history, the more I dislike it.
Torturing people, burning people alive doesn't sound very christian to me.
No wonder the east broke away from them.

They sent people into holy war saying your sins will be forgiven if you fight, I'm studying them at the moment, it blows my mind, I can't comprehend what I am learning.

 

[Meowzltov]

Mine is all electric. Beyond that, I dont think that turning a switch is kindling a fire... but you have to do what your own mind convicts you of

I agree that we are both searching our consciences to do what is right. I greatly respect that about you. It's just interesting to banter back and forth about this -- it makes me think. As far as I'm concerned, because you are a Gentile, you have no real obligation to keep the Sabbath in the first place (although you may think differently), and I think you are doing so out of sheer love -- that says something incredibly good about you.

Getting back to Halakha... I think if you have an electric stove, you aren't violating the prohibition about kindling a flame, just as my microwave doesn't. However, there still remains that old prohibition against cooking. Ha!

Yes, I realize that I'm interpreting the Torah by Jewish Halakha, which Christians like to denigrate as "tradition." But you equally have your own traditions of interpretation. They are just different ones. Jewish Halakha says that work is those things which were used to build the tabernacle (because such labors ceased on the Sabbath, including those that weren't strenuous effort). Your own "Halakha" says that work is strenuous effort. Both require interpretation outside of scripture.

 

[Meowzltov]

Only yesterday I was in favour of keeping the sabbath, but new evidence has come to light.

In Acts of the apostles the deciples break bread on Sunday.

Colossians 2:16

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

I break bread on Sunday too, and still rest on the Sabbath. They are totally different animals.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yeshua flat out, straight up accused them of defering to their traditions in plain violation of the decree's.

When we obey the traditions BUT NOT THE TORAH, this is wrong. OF COURSE. But that doesn't mean we are not to obey the traditions. Jesus taught that we are to obey BOTH. Matthew 23:23.

 

[ihavefoundgod951]

I have some friends who are 7th day adventists, they are very strict about keeping the sabbath and the law.

I have some really good debates with them, it's a bit like I am taking to a wall really.

But let me tell you they are the best christians I have come across. They live like christians,

Jesus said you will know them by there fruit; let me tell you these people have fruit in abundance.

False doctrines, but forget about that, they are the most beautiful pure people I have come across.