Futurist Only Eschatology poll

[Psalm3704]

Probably because the idea appeals a lot to people who are more comfortable watching a video than they are reading.

Right, what a great idea. If one wants to learn about the word of God, the gospel or bible prophecies, why not watch manmade videos on YouTube instead of reading God's word directly from the bible. Oh brother!

Only if you have decided that that's what you believe a priori. If you simply read it for what it says, "pre trib" is nowhere to be seen. That's why so many American Christians (pre trib is very much an American phenomenon) start out pre trib by indoctrination, then later drop it when they've studied the Bible enough to realize that they've been had.

You know what the problem is with most preterist like yourself? You don't realize prophecy can also be found beyond the discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and the book of Revelation. You just don't realized there's prophecies mentioned in many other parts of the bible as well. And some, believe it or not, reveals the church taken into heaven before the tribulation: Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1, Hebrews 12:22-29.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 NKJV
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

Hebrews 12:22-29 NKJV
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven. 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.​

Big sign outside: "Orthodox Preterists Only!" <Laugh>

Did you see the big sign inside? It said "Everyone else welcome inside!"

When the rapture happens, guess who'll be outside and guess who will be inside?

Yeah, they'll finally realize that the message of the entire Bible was pre-mil Dispensational Futurism, and that only those who embrace it will ever enter the Kingdom of God. Right?

Every splinter group (I hesitate to say "cult" because it carries more connotative baggage than I care to unpack right now)that declares itself the One True Way and consigns everyone else to the infernal regions has a touchstone doctrine that they consider to be The Law That May Not Be Broken. For the SDAs it's Sabbath keeping. Work on Saturday? You're going to hell. The Jehovah's Witnesses have two - the name "Jehovah", and their Arian Christology. Believe Christ is God Incarnate? No Kingdom for you, you stay dead. The United Pentecostals require that you to deny the Trinity and believe in Jesus Only, and to be baptized in Jesus' Name else you fry forever.

Looks like a new Dispy splinter is forming that requires that one must accept the Gospel According to Hal Lindsey to avoid eternal torment. Believe that Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled? To the pit with you! Believe that our Lord was addressing His disciples in the Olivet discourse? You to go hell! Think that the Revelator meant "soon"when he said "soon"? Assured damnation! Great stuff for building a new One True Church, no doubt.

Watching these videos is more fun and entertaining than reading the above. I did laugh watching them. Knock yourself out!

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[Psalm3704]

Actually, Mark 13:27 says Jesus will gather His chosen from the farthest parts of the earth and of heaven.

I already covered this part in post#28. Not all christians will be rapture. Some will have to endure the tribulation before they finally find God. Some new christians will turn to God during the tribulation.

All these new elect christians on earth will be gathered with those current elects waiting in heaven (pretrib rapture) to meet Christ at the Mount of Olives after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27.

The fact that Mark also mentions a gathering from heaven disputes this event being the rapture. You can't rapture anyone already in heaven. In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

The rapture of the church is one of the most important event for the church in the entire bible. If the gathering at the end of the tribulation is an actual rapture, why did Luke not mention it in his discourse. Why would his discourse not parallel Matthew's and Mark's if it's the rapture?

Jesus said no man knows the day and hour not even Himself: Mark 13:32.

Luke said in Luke 21:25-28 NKJV, men's hearts failing them from fear and expectation of things to come. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Look up, your redemption draws near.

Luke said men, as in everyone: christians and non-believers. How can everyone see Christ coming and not know the day and hour? The gathering at the end of the tribulation is clearly not the rapture.

So some come from earth and some from heaven. We see those whom Jesus will gather from heaven in Revelation 20:4-6. They are all who have been killed for their faith and their souls have been kept under the Altar, presumably in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation 20:4-6 is not the rapture either, but a separate resurrection for all those that died during the tribulation who did not take the mark of the beast nor worshipped the beast.

Revelation 20:4-6 NKJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

You can easily understand this is not the rapture because the rapture consist of christians from the first century up till the time of the beginning of the tribulation. Rev 20:4-6 only consist of those that died in the tribulation to the beast and accepting the mark. Keras, the mark of the beast and the antichrist was not around during the first century, therefore this resurrection confirms only those that died during the tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6 also debunks a posttrib rapture because if you put the rapture at the end of the tribulation, that would make two resurrections at the same time: one resurrection from the rapture in 1 Thess 4:16 and another resurrection from Revelation 20:4.

Based on Revelation 20:4, a posttrib rapture is illogical that Christ would perform a resurrection of christians that died from 33 AD to end of the 7 year tribulation and another resurrection of christians that died during the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 6:9-11 are the martyrs being persecuted today, mostly in the Middle East. If you believe they are those in heaven found in Mark 13:27, this idea affirms a pretrib rapture because you believe they are already in heaven now and not after the tribulation.

Therefore unless you have been martyred, as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 we who remain alive shall join the Christian dead and be forever with the Lord, who will be from that time: forever on earth. Revelation 21:3

Keras, if you examine 1 Thess 4-5 carefully, you can spot a pretrib rapture hidden in the text.

Case:#1
1) The rapture is in 1 Thess 4:16-17.
2) Christ comes for the church in 1 Thess 5:2.
3) 1 Thess 5:3a: He comes for the church during a time when people are saying "peace and safety!"

He comes pre tribulation before all hell breaks loose on earth. It's also impossible 1 Thess 4:16-17 implies post trib as no one will be saying peace and safety after the great tribulation.​

4) 1 Thess 5:3b: Then sudden destruction comes upon the world and they will not escape. Now is when the tribulation begins.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:5 NKJV
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.​

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.​

Case #2:
1) Notice also that Paul from chapter 5 verses 1 to 4, he addressed the church as "you" 6 times.
2) Notice Paul said "they and them" 3 times in verse 3? "And they shall not escape." Those whom Paul called "they and them" who will not escape is not the church.

You can tell those being left behind are "they" who will not escape as Paul addressed the church as "You."

What does this mean? It means the rapture is pretrib! 1 Thess 5:4.

1 Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.









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[dysert]

Pre-trib, Pre-mill.

 

[keras]

Keras, if you examine 1 Thess 4-5 carefully, you can spot a pretrib rapture hidden in the text.

What I do 'spot' by carefully reading all the Prophetic Word, is not a rapture removal to heaven of anyone, as Jesus clearly stated in John 3:13, but a gathering and settling of all the Lord's righteous people into all of the Holy Land.

Here are verses telling of this great time:
The Blessings to His people as they go back to the Land. [Although these prophesies say Judah and Israel, remember that the NT makes it clear; all who truly believe in God and accept Jesus as their Saviour, are deemed to be Israelites.]

Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.

Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.

Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.

Hosea 2:14-23 But now I shall woo her and restore her vineyards. I shall betroth her to Myself, making her faithful, they will know the Lord. Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will show love to Israel and Judah and say to them ‘You are My people’. They will say ‘You are our God’.

Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.

Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.

Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.

Isaiah 65:24=25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.

Zechariah 8:13-15 To the nations, you Judah and Israel have been as a curse, now I shall save you and you will become a blessing. Courage! Do not lose heart.

Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.

Psalm 105:43-44 The Lord led out His people in triumph. He gave them lands of the heathen nations for their possession.

Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.

Jeremiah 31:23-28 ...The days are coming when I shall sow Israel and Judah with the seed of man and the seed of livestock. As I inflicted disasters upon them, now I shall watch over them to build and to plant.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.

Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers the scattered Israelites, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.

Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Ref: REB. Some verses abridged

 

[Psalm3704]

What I do 'spot' by carefully reading all the Prophetic Word, is not a rapture removal to heaven of anyone, as Jesus clearly stated in John 3:13,

Keras,

John 3:13 was already fulfilled. I'll say it again and again, John 3:13 was already fulfilled immediately after Christ died on the cross. Christ was still alive and at the time speaking to Nicodemus when He said "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Do you know why John the baptist kept preaching to many to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand? It's because after Christ came into the world, people were finally allowed to go to heaven upon His death. Before Matthew 27:50-53, the righteous Jews were sent to Abraham's Bosom, place of comfort in hell while awaiting judgement. Christ changed all that on the cross.

Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

but a gathering and settling of all the Lord's righteous people into all of the Holy Land.

Here are verses telling of this great time:
The Blessings to His people as they go back to the Land. [Although these prophesies say Judah and Israel, remember that the NT makes it clear; all who truly believe in God and accept Jesus as their Saviour, are deemed to be Israelites.]

Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.

Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.

Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.

Hosea 2:14-23 But now I shall woo her and restore her vineyards. I shall betroth her to Myself, making her faithful, they will know the Lord. Israel will be My new sowing in the Land, I will show love to Israel and Judah and say to them ‘You are My people’. They will say ‘You are our God’.

Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.

Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.

Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.

Isaiah 65:24=25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.

Zechariah 8:13-15 To the nations, you Judah and Israel have been as a curse, now I shall save you and you will become a blessing. Courage! Do not lose heart.

Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.

Psalm 105:43-44 The Lord led out His people in triumph. He gave them lands of the heathen nations for their possession.

Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.

Jeremiah 31:23-28 ...The days are coming when I shall sow Israel and Judah with the seed of man and the seed of livestock. As I inflicted disasters upon them, now I shall watch over them to build and to plant.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.

Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers the scattered Israelites, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.

Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Ref: REB. Some verses abridged

Keras,

Do you realized all those verses are from the old testament except Romans 8:18, which proves nothing about christians not going in heaven.

Do you know why you have so many old testament verses listed and almost zero verses from the new testament?

It's because the new testament is about the church and the old testament is about Israel. This applies to prophecies too. During the tribulation, the church goes to heaven, the Israelites stays on earth the entire 7 years. So what you just did was pulled a bunch of scriptures about Israel and used those scriptures targeting the church when they don't apply to the church. SHAME ON YOU!

If you want to know what happens to the church during the tribulation, look up the prophecies about the church, which is found in the prophecies of the new testament. Examples: Who partakes in the marriage Supper of the Lamb? The Church, not Israel! Where will the marriage be held at? In Heaven, not on earth! Where do you find information on the marriage? In the new testament, not the old testament! Who receives eternal rewards from Christ when He comes? The church, not Israel! Where will the Bema Seat be held at? In heaven, not on earth! Where are the eternal rewards (Mansions, etc)? In heaven, not on earth! Where is all this information found? In the new testament, not the old testament! Same thing with the rapture, it's a church event and found in the new testament.

During the tribulation, the church goes to heaven, Israel stays on earth to finish the 70th week. The church is not a part of the 70th week. We have nothing to do with the redemption of Israel given in the prophecies of Daniel.

Now if one wants to learn a boatload of information about the tribulation and what happens on earth those 7 years, nothing beats the old testament. But one need to make sure not to cross reference the prophecies between Israel and the church, you must rightly divide prophecies too. If you wanna know if the righteous will go to heaven or not, it's mostly found in the new testament.

Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

1 Kings 8:30 And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive

2 Kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Isaiah 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Philippians 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

John 13:36
Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.”

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Hebrews 11:9-10
9 By faith he lived in the land he had been promised as a stranger. He lived in tents along with Isaac and Jacob, who were coheirs of the same promise.10 He was looking forward to a city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:16
But at this point in time, they are longing for a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore, God isn’t ashamed to be called their God—he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Colossians 3:1-7
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. ...

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.​

One other thing Keras, many of those verses you wrote does not happen during the tribulation when the church does goes to heaven for 7 years. After the tribulation, the church returns to earth to live and reign for 1000 years. Some of those verses are about the glorious times in the millennium, while other verses are about Israel during the 1st half of the tribulation --- a period of divine peace and prosperity from God before they endure the time of Jacob's Trouble in the 2nd half. SHAME ON YOU AGAIN! You think I would not understand those scriptures with my talking parrot next to me?














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[dysert]

Keras,

John 3:13 was already fulfilled. I'll say it again and again, John 3:13 was already fulfilled immediately after Christ died on the cross. Christ was still alive and at the time speaking to Nicodemus when He said "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Do you know why John the baptist kept preaching to many to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand? It's because after Christ came into the world, people were finally allowed to go to heaven upon His death. Before Matthew 27:50-53, the righteous Jews were sent to Abraham's Bosom, place of comfort in hell while awaiting judgement. Christ changed all that on the cross.

Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

Keras,

Do you realized all those verses are from the old testament except Romans 8:18, which proves nothing about christians not going in heaven.

Do you know why you have so many old testament verses listed and almost zero verses from the new testament?

It's because the new testament is about the church and the old testament is about Israel. This applies to prophecies too. During the tribulation, the church goes to heaven, the Israelites stays on earth the entire 7 years. So what you just did was pulled a bunch of scriptures about Israel and used those scriptures targeting the church when they don't apply to the church. SHAME ON YOU!

If you want to know what happens to the church during the tribulation, look up the prophecies about the church, which is found in the prophecies of the new testament. Examples: Who partakes in the marriage Supper of the Lamb? The Church, not Israel! Where will the marriage be held at? In Heaven, not on earth! Where do you find information on the marriage? In the new testament, not the old testament! Who receives eternal rewards from Christ when He comes? The church, not Israel! Where will the Bema Seat be held at? In heaven, not on earth! Where are the eternal rewards (Mansions, etc)? In heaven, not on earth! Where is all this information found? In the new testament, not the old testament! Same thing with the rapture, it's a church event and found in the new testament.

During the tribulation, the church goes to heaven, Israel stays on earth to finish the 70th week. The church is not a part of the 70th week. We have nothing to do with the redemption of Israel given in the prophecies of Daniel.

Now if one wants to learn a boatload of information about the tribulation and what happens on earth those 7 years, nothing beats the old testament. But one need to make sure not to cross reference the prophecies between Israel and the church, you must rightly divide prophecies too. If you wanna know if the righteous will go to heaven or not, it's mostly found in the new testament.

Matthew 27:50-53
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

1 Kings 8:30 And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive

2 Kings 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Isaiah 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Philippians 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

John 13:36
Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.”

2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Hebrews 11:9-10
9 By faith he lived in the land he had been promised as a stranger. He lived in tents along with Isaac and Jacob, who were coheirs of the same promise.10 He was looking forward to a city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:16
But at this point in time, they are longing for a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore, God isn’t ashamed to be called their God—he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Colossians 3:1-7
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. ...

Philippians 1:21-23 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.​

One other thing Keras, many of those verses you wrote does not happen during the tribulation when the church does goes to heaven for 7 years. After the tribulation, the church returns to earth to live and reign for 1000 years. Some of those verses are about the glorious times in the millennium, while other verses are about Israel during the 1st half of the tribulation --- a period of divine peace and prosperity from God before they endure the time of Jacob's Trouble in the 2nd half. SHAME ON YOU AGAIN! You think I would not understand those scriptures with my talking parrot next to me?
.

Excellent post, Psalm3704. You said it better than I could have.

 

[keras]

Keras,
Do you realized all those verses are from the old testament except Romans 8:18, which proves nothing about christians not going in heaven.
Do you know why you have so many old testament verses listed and almost zero verses from the new testament?

Yes, I do know why this is.
God gave His ancient prophets all the information about His plans for mankind. He didn't need to repeat it in the NT, because the NT is mostly for the redemption and salvation of all people.
You and all who grip onto the theory of a rapture to heaven, fail to read and understand properly what God really wants for His people. It is and always was, to have a people who truly believed in Him, kept His Commandment's and were His witnesses to the nations. Ancient Israel failed in this task, but there will be a new nation that will 'bear the proper fruit'. Matthew 21:43
God does not change, His plan will come to fruition, exactly as prophesied. Isaiah 66:15-21 There is NO plan B.
Note in Romans 8:26 In the very place.....My people will be called 'sons of the Living God'. Undeniably in the holy Land, not in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

Probably because the idea appeals a lot to people who are more comfortable watching a video than they are reading.

Only if you have decided that that's what you believe a priori. If you simply read it for what it says, "pre trib" is nowhere to be seen. That's why so many American Christians (pre trib is very much an American phenomenon) start out pre trib by indoctrination, then later drop it when they've studied the Bible enough to realize that they've been had.

Big sign outside: "Orthodox Preterists Only!" <Laugh>

Yeah, they'll finally realize that the message of the entire Bible was pre-mil Dispensational Futurism, and that only those who embrace it will ever enter the Kingdom of God. Right?

Every splinter group (I hesitate to say "cult" because it carries more connotative baggage than I care to unpack right now)that declares itself the One True Way and consigns everyone else to the infernal regions has a touchstone doctrine that they consider to be The Law That May Not Be Broken. For the SDAs it's Sabbath keeping. Work on Saturday? You're going to hell. The Jehovah's Witnesses have two - the name "Jehovah", and their Arian Christology. Believe Christ is God Incarnate? No Kingdom for you, you stay dead. The United Pentecostals require that you to deny the Trinity and believe in Jesus Only, and to be baptized in Jesus' Name else you fry forever.

Looks like a new Dispy splinter is forming that requires that one must accept the Gospel According to Hal Lindsey to avoid eternal torment. Believe that Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled? To the pit with you! Believe that our Lord was addressing His disciples in the Olivet discourse? You to go hell! Think that the Revelator meant "soon"when he said "soon"? Assured damnation! Great stuff for building a new One True Church, no doubt.

I don't think Pretribbers assign people to hell if they don't believe in pretrib. They mostly just say that the rest will be left behind to face the Beast. Then it will be up to them if they accept the Mark or not.

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, I do know why this is.
God gave His ancient prophets all the information about His plans for mankind. He didn't need to repeat it in the NT, because the NT is mostly for the redemption and salvation of all people.
You and all who grip onto the theory of a rapture to heaven, fail to read and understand properly what God really wants for His people. It is and always was, to have a people who truly believed in Him, kept His Commandment's and were His witnesses to the nations. Ancient Israel failed in this task, but there will be a new nation that will 'bear the proper fruit'. Matthew 21:43
God does not change, His plan will come to fruition, exactly as prophesied. Isaiah 66:15-21 There is NO plan B.
Note in Romans 8:26 In the very place.....My people will be called 'sons of the Living God'. Undeniably in the holy Land, not in heaven.

Have you moved to Israel yet?

I will be visiting my address in heaven, as will many other pretrib rapture believers. If you choose to move to Israel, you STILL won't avoid the BEAST for God has said that He will OVERCOME the saints. And they will begin looking in ISRAEL FIRST! Maybe you will flee with the others when you see the man of sin abominate? First you would have to BE IN JUDEA. Maybe you should begin packing, for time is very short.

 

[keras]

Have you moved to Israel yet?

I will be visiting my address in heaven, as will many other pretrib rapture believers. If you choose to move to Israel, you STILL won't avoid the BEAST for God has said that He will OVERCOME the saints. And they will begin looking in ISRAEL FIRST! Maybe you will flee with the others when you see the man of sin abominate? First you would have to BE IN JUDEA. Maybe you should begin packing, for time is very short.

Your knowledge of God's plans for His people is abysmal.
The current inhabitants of all the holy Land area face judgement and punishment. I am glad to be far from there at present. Jeremiah 10:18 The Lord Himself will clear and cleanse the Land ready for His people to live there. Many prophesies prove this and Romans 9:26 says it will be in the very place where He rejected the Israelites, that He will call His people 'the sons of the Living God'.
Taking His people to heaven is not part of God's plan, we are to 'bear the proper fruit', that is; to be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 How can you do that in heaven?
God has no plan B, He does not change and we will go to live in the holy Land, where it will be like heaven as He blesses His people. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[bibletruth469]

Pre trib- rapture happens before the tribulation
Pre mill- Christ's return to earth at the second coming happens before His 1000 year reign on earth.

 

[iamlamad]

Your knowledge of God's plans for His people is abysmal.
The current inhabitants of all the holy Land area face judgement and punishment. I am glad to be far from there at present. Jeremiah 10:18 The Lord Himself will clear and cleanse the Land ready for His people to live there. Many prophesies prove this and Romans 9:26 says it will be in the very place where He rejected the Israelites, that He will call His people 'the sons of the Living God'.
Taking His people to heaven is not part of God's plan, we are to 'bear the proper fruit', that is; to be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 How can you do that in heaven?
God has no plan B, He does not change and we will go to live in the holy Land, where it will be like heaven as He blesses His people. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Ezekiel 34:11-31

There is a time for everything, as Solomon said, and there will be a time God will come and take us out of the earth and to our prepared homes in heaven, when the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. Then our work on earth will be finished. If you wish to stay here, I am sure God will allow it. Just be prepared to be overcome. What does that mean? You will have a choice: take the mark or lose your head. It is that simple.

You are putting far too much emphasis on some verses while ignoring others.

 

[iamlamad]

Pre trib- rapture happens before the tribulation
Pre mill- Christ's return to earth at the second coming happens before His 1000 year reign on earth.

Well said and TRUTH....something we find very little of on this thread.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

I've lost track

 

[ivebeenshown]

I already covered this part in post#28. Not all christians will be rapture. Some will have to endure the tribulation before they finally find God. Some new christians will turn to God during the tribulation.

All these new elect christians on earth will be gathered with those current elects waiting in heaven (pretrib rapture) to meet Christ at the Mount of Olives after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27.

The fact that Mark also mentions a gathering from heaven disputes this event being the rapture. You can't rapture anyone already in heaven. In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

The rapture of the church is one of the most important event for the church in the entire bible. If the gathering at the end of the tribulation is an actual rapture, why did Luke not mention it in his discourse. Why would his discourse not parallel Matthew's and Mark's if it's the rapture?

Jesus said no man knows the day and hour not even Himself: Mark 13:32.

Luke said in Luke 21:25-28 NKJV, men's hearts failing them from fear and expectation of things to come. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Look up, your redemption draws near.

Luke said men, as in everyone: christians and non-believers. How can everyone see Christ coming and not know the day and hour? The gathering at the end of the tribulation is clearly not the rapture.



Revelation 20:4-6 is not the rapture either, but a separate resurrection for all those that died during the tribulation who did not take the mark of the beast nor worshipped the beast.

Revelation 20:4-6 NKJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

You can easily understand this is not the rapture because the rapture consist of christians from the first century up till the time of the beginning of the tribulation. Rev 20:4-6 only consist of those that died in the tribulation to the beast and accepting the mark. Keras, the mark of the beast and the antichrist was not around during the first century, therefore this resurrection confirms only those that died during the tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6 also debunks a posttrib rapture because if you put the rapture at the end of the tribulation, that would make two resurrections at the same time: one resurrection from the rapture in 1 Thess 4:16 and another resurrection from Revelation 20:4.

Based on Revelation 20:4, a posttrib rapture is illogical that Christ would perform a resurrection of christians that died from 33 AD to end of the 7 year tribulation and another resurrection of christians that died during the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 6:9-11 are the martyrs being persecuted today, mostly in the Middle East. If you believe they are those in heaven found in Mark 13:27, this idea affirms a pretrib rapture because you believe they are already in heaven now and not after the tribulation.



Keras, if you examine 1 Thess 4-5 carefully, you can spot a pretrib rapture hidden in the text.

Case:#1
1) The rapture is in 1 Thess 4:16-17.
2) Christ comes for the church in 1 Thess 5:2.
3) 1 Thess 5:3a: He comes for the church during a time when people are saying "peace and safety!"

He comes pre tribulation before all hell breaks loose on earth. It's also impossible 1 Thess 4:16-17 implies post trib as no one will be saying peace and safety after the great tribulation.​

4) 1 Thess 5:3b: Then sudden destruction comes upon the world and they will not escape. Now is when the tribulation begins.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:5 NKJV
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.​

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.​

Case #2:
1) Notice also that Paul from chapter 5 verses 1 to 4, he addressed the church as "you" 6 times.
2) Notice Paul said "they and them" 3 times in verse 3? "And they shall not escape." Those whom Paul called "they and them" who will not escape is not the church.

You can tell those being left behind are "they" who will not escape as Paul addressed the church as "You."

What does this mean? It means the rapture is pretrib! 1 Thess 5:4.

1 Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.









.

You state that when people say "peace and safety", that is when a "post-rapture great tribulation" begins. The scriptures say that when people are saying "peace and safety", that is when "sudden destruction" comes and "they will not escape." Why is it that 1 Thessalonians 5 says something different than what you are saying? How do you manage to interpret "sudden destruction" as "prolonged tribulation"?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Just for fun, I was just curious what positions different Christians hold too in their eschatology. Eg) rapture pre, mid, post. Millennium.
Don't write why you hold to it, just write what position you hold.

I'll start.

Rapture: Post trib
Millennium: amillennuim

*ignore the 'futurist only'

Scripture seems to make it clear that there are at least two aspects of tribulation:

There is the tribulation principle: "In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16.33).

And then there is a unique, future tribulation: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24.21).

 

[keras]

There is a time for everything, as Solomon said, and there will be a time God will come and take us out of the earth and to our prepared homes in heaven, when the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. Then our work on earth will be finished. If you wish to stay here, I am sure God will allow it. Just be prepared to be overcome. What does that mean? You will have a choice: take the mark or lose your head. It is that simple.

You are putting far too much emphasis on some verses while ignoring others.

Nowhere does scripture say any people group will be taken to heaven. The only prophecy telling about any kind of removal is Revelation 12:14 where the 'woman' that is: righteous Israelites will be taken to a place of safety on earth for 1260 days.
You are simply making up a removal to heaven. True, God has prepared homes in heaven, they are in the new Jerusalem, that will come down to us after the Millennium.

The verses I emphasise are those about the truth of God's plans for His people. You make out a rapture where there is none and ignore the many prophesies describing how the Lord's people will live in the holy Land. Psalms 37:29

 

[dysert]

Nowhere does scripture say any people group will be taken to heaven. The only prophecy telling about any kind of removal is Revelation 12:14 where the 'woman' that is: righteous Israelites will be taken to a place of safety on earth for 1260 days.
You are simply making up a removal to heaven. True, God has prepared homes in heaven, they are in the new Jerusalem, that will come down to us after the Millennium.

The verses I emphasise are those about the truth of God's plans for His people. You make out a rapture where there is none and ignore the many prophesies describing how the Lord's people will live in the holy Land. Psalms 37:29

A "rapture" is certainly there (1 Thes. 4:17). You see it in the Latin ("rapiemur"); you see it in the Greek ("ἁρπάζω"); you see it in English ("caught up"). The question is, what does it mean?

As for Psalm 37:29, that will certainly apply when we're inhabiting the New Earth.

 

[Psalm3704]

You are putting far too much emphasis on some verses while ignoring others.

I actually agree with you on this.








.

 

[Psalm3704]

You state that when people say "peace and safety", that is when a "post-rapture great tribulation" begins.

That's not what I said. In fact, this is the complete opposite of what you think I said.

You might want to go back and reread what I've said but if that still doesn't sink in, here's a different perspective of what I've said. There's 4 major views on the timing of the rapture: PreTrib, MidTrib, PreWrath and PostTrib.

Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, the day of the lord when Christ comes happens in verse 2. His coming happens in a time of peace and safety in verse 3.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.And they shall not escape.​

So Christ comes for the church at a time of peace and safety:

1) Can Christ come for the church MidTrib? No! Because 1/3 of the world population just died at the 6th trumpet event: Revelation 9:15. No peace and safety!

2) Can Christ come for the church PreWrath? No! Because the antichrist now becomes the beast of Revelation 13. No peace and safety!

3) Can Christ come for the church PostTrib? Absolutely not! The whole world just went through Armageddon. Majority of people in the world just died. Absolutely no one will even think peace and safety.

4) So that only leaves one final option. Can Christ come for the church before the tribulation starts? Yes! Pre tribulation is the only time of peace and safety!​

The day of the Lord when Christ comes is in verse 2. After Christ raptures the church ---- at a time of peace and safety --- then sudden destruction comes upon the world.

And here's your sudden destruction. This is what will happen when millions of people vanish off the face of the earth. Cars with no drivers will crash, planes with no pilots will fall from the sky, etc.......sudden destruction all over the earth. The world goes from peace and safety one minute to a global chaos the next minute. It all just suddenly changed!

.