Giants or Nephilim

[Gentle Lamb]

It's really not about who's right or wrong here either, because the only one who is right is the Lord God Himself, and His Word (TRUTH) stands eternal. We interpret scripture by reading scripture and we understand scripture through the power of the Holy Spirit. We must rely only upon the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to lead us and nothing else. This is another case of the truth is stranger than fiction, but then again, the fact that we are fallen from grace and cannot thus see the Lord God who made us is strange and sad, but it is truth, and do in part to our sinful nature that we gained from eating the fruit in the garden, detailed in Genesis, which is history. The ONLY reliable history we have in the entire world because God is not a man that He should lie, He has no alternative agenda, unlike our enemy, the most low, who seeks only to lie, kill, steal, and destroy.

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Revelation is apocryphal, meaning it's apocalyptic, but it's still doctrinal.



How then do you explain the mentions of giants and obvious Nephilim (and/or their descendants) throughout the Old Testament? Also, in Enoch is explains that The Watchers took on human form when they came down and mated with human females. So regardless of if angels didn't have genitals or not in their angelic form, they were attracted to human females, came down, took human form, and mated.

that's your own mere view, it doesn't come out by reading the Bible, you know that?

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Where did you get that? I know....you were taught it by a human with a particular theology...the Bible nowhere says any such thing. surely in heaven where they have no biological body this would be true but when they assume a HUMAN form that's another matter. HUMAN forms have genitals.

The sons of Seth theory only makes sense if the daughters were the daughters of Cain but they were not,,,in the Hebrew it clearly says they were the daughters of Adam (which included both genealogies)...nowhere are the sons of Seth called the sons of God....the imaginations of all their hearts were only evil continually (including the line of Seth with the exception of a scant few)

ahahhaha what you are just saying is a fable, nowhere in the Bible is written what you say

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I want to remind everyone of the huge warning in Jude 8-10:

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

Huge warning in II Peter 2:10-12:

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

I error on the safe side least I unwittingly slander.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I want to remind everyone of the huge warning in Jude 8-10:

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

Huge warning in II Peter 2:10-12:

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

I error on the safe side least I unwittingly slander.

 

[Echolipse]

it doesn't come out by reading the Bible, you know that?

Can you please reword that, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[ewq1938]

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Looks like angels did leave heaven and committed something extremely sinful because it was unforgivable, leading them to the lake of fire.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


So, Genesis 6 is speaking of what angels did, not the sons of Seth.

Besides, sex is not the only way to impregnate a female. Ever heard of Christ's birth? Are angels intelligent and advanced enough to create or clone what is needed from a male to fertilize a females egg?

 

[Gentle Lamb]

Are angels intelligent and advanced enough to create or clone what is needed from a male to fertilize a females egg?

In the Book of Enoch, which is canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, it talks about how the fallen angels knew the secrets of heaven such as how to use different herbs for healing but also magic and witchcraft and also secrets of technology and warfare, etc. The Bible also tells us that nothing under the sun is new, so all of our technology, as amazing as we may consider it to be, is nothing new to God and He is the one who gave us the intelligence to make it all anyways. But I still strongly believe that the fallen angels took on the shape of humans to mate with human women as described in Gen. 6 and produce their abominable, evil offspring, who then died and whose spirits still wander the earth as demons, tormenting humans.

 

[ewq1938]

In the Book of Enoch, which is canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, it talks about how the fallen angels knew the secrets of heaven such as how to use different herbs for healing but also magic and witchcraft and also secrets of technology and warfare, etc. The Bible also tells us that nothing under the sun is new, so all of our technology, as amazing as we may consider it to be, is nothing new to God and He is the one who gave us the intelligence to make it all anyways.

Yes I agree.

But I still strongly believe that the fallen angels took on the shape of humans to mate with human women as described in Gen. 6 and produce their abominable, evil offspring, who then died and whose spirits still wander the earth as demons, tormenting humans.

Angels don't need to "take on" such a form because that is their natural form. I, however, don't believe they have working male sexual organs because angels are not intended to marry each other and they are all male so it would make no sense for God to give them sexual organs that would not be allowed to be used. I believe they circumvented that limitation using whatever technologies they have access to in order to create hybrid children.

 

[Gentle Lamb]

Yes I agree.
Angels don't need to "take on" such a form because that is their natural form. I, however, don't believe they have working male sexual organs because angels are not intended to marry each other and they are all male so it would make no sense for God to give them sexual organs that would not be allowed to be used. I believe they circumvented that limitation using whatever technologies they have access to in order to create hybrid children.

That is a good theory. The book of Enoch also talks about the different hybrid animals that were around before the flood, they were utter monstrosities and the animals Noah took on the boat had to have been very specific as God was looking for pure, uncorrupted blood lines even among the animals. It must have been that Satan was trying to un-do absolutely everything that God had created, thus bringing on the necessity of the flood. And yet, even though God sent the flood, He was STILL sorry that He had to do it. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish and He is the same yesterday and today. Today we see genetic engineering and the monstrosities created through those, mice with human ears, pigs with human organs, etc. and the animals created through it suffer horribly. We only see a tidbit of information on it here and there, but trust and believe that if they show us a little information, there's a mountain of stuff they are keeping from us. So you bring up a good point in using the technologies and we have the exact same things going on today, yet today, they call it "science". Another thing is that we see hybrid animals that are worshiped as gods and why would those people have those if they weren't basing it on reality because to be quite honest humans are not that creative, we paint and draw and sculpt what we see for the most part.

 

[ewq1938]

That is a good theory. The book of Enoch also talks about the different hybrid animals that were around before the flood, they were utter monstrosities and the animals Noah took on the boat had to have been very specific as God was looking for pure, uncorrupted blood lines even among the animals. It must have been that Satan was trying to un-do absolutely everything that God had created, thus bringing on the necessity of the flood.

I don't think undo is the right term. I think Satan was imitating God by having his angels create their own children and creating odd creatures. It reminds me of the magicians in Egypt imitating the things Moses did even up to the serpent, which was eaten by Moses' serpent lol

And yet, even though God sent the flood, He was STILL sorry that He had to do it. 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish and He is the same yesterday and today. Today we see genetic engineering and the monstrosities created through those, mice with human ears, pigs with human organs, etc. and the animals created through it suffer horribly.

Well those examples are noble attempts at aiding medical procedures that repair damage to people's bodies. There are people burned so badly that they have no face anymore and it is true human charity to try to help them have a face again and to heal a little from the terrible trauma they have suffered. That is far different than Satan's perversions of nature and man intended. But I suspect some of this research is possibly used in non-charitable ways.

 

[Caleb-D]

In no place in the Bible the angels or other creatures are called sons by God.
Only men are made at image of God.[/QUOTE]

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.” - Job 1:6 (KJV) -

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
- Daniel 3:25 (KJV) -
"Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word..."
- Daniel 3:28 (KJV) -

 

[ewq1938]

In no place in the Bible the angels or other creatures are called sons by God.
Only men are made at image of God.

“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.” - Job 1:6 (KJV) -

"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
- Daniel 3:25 (KJV) -
"Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word..."
- Daniel 3:28 (KJV) -

more to add:

Gen_6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job_2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job_38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Sounds like pretty bad angels huh? Exactly what harm could come to a human woman from these angels? Could it be these angels are the ones said to have been "before of old ordained to this condemnation" and "saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose" in Genesis 6? Could the child have grown into huge, evil giants that plagued the world for generations?


*********************
http://biblefacts.org/bible/demon.html

The Scofield Bible in 1901 was the first to successfully propagate the Idea that the ‘sons of God’ were the descendants of Seth and the ‘daughters of men’ were from the ungodly line of Cain. Some proponents of this theory use to try to state that angels can’t reproduce, when in effect this actually agrees with Enoch 15 in saying that there will be no need to. Some problems with this theory are: 1st genetic problems develop from inbreeding not from marrying other tribes or races. 2nd none of the early church fathers taught this. All who commented on Genesis 6 agreed the ‘Sons of God’ were angels. Sources like Josephus, Justin martyr, Irenaeus, the Septuagint, and many others. Justin Martyr stated that 1 Corinthians 11:10 referred to the Genesis 6 story.


Early Church fathers who taught that the sons of God were Angels were:
Athenagoras (chapter 25), Clement of Alexandria, Titian, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Commodianus (chapter 3), Josephus, Felix, Ambrose of Milian, and Origen. The codex Alexandrias and three later manuscripts use the word angel instead of sons of God in Genesis 6. Origen and Tertullian refer to Enoch as Scripture.

 

[Gentle Lamb]

Good information ewq1938, thanks for adding that in and citing the scriptures and thanks Caleb as well.

 

[Caleb-D]

Thanks everyone.

 

[Dave-W]

I don't. The reason being that Mark 12:25 tells us that angels don't marry. I Infer from that that they are incapable of having sex. Also, angels are spirit beings who just take on physical form when needed. A spirit doesn't have the parts necessary for having sex.

There is a LOT of speculation there, all unsupportable.

Mark 12.25 says "... the angels IN HEAVEN." IOW, they are not the fallen angels.

You "infer" they are incapable of having sex. There is nothing in any text to support this. That text says in the resurrection humans will be like those angels in heaven. Those humans can have sex if they choose to do so. But they choose not to do so.

"Angels are spirit beings who just take on physical form when needed." When described in scripture, angels ALWAYS have bodies. Where do you get your opinion that they take physical form "when needed?" Is there any biblical text showing an angel changing from non-corporeal to corporeal or vice versa?

Show me chapter and verse for what "parts" a spirit has or does not have.

 

[Dave-W]

Revelation is apocryphal, meaning it's apocalyptic, but it's still doctrinal.

?????

"Apocryphal" means not real.

From TheFreeDictionary.com:

1. Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2. Erroneous; fictitious: "Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd ... raced through Russia's trenches" (W. Bruce Lincoln).

OTOH, "Apocalyptic" means:

1. Relating to or predicting the end of the world, especially as described in the Bible or another religious text.
2. Relating to or predicting widespread destruction or the collapse of civilization: "The refugees in the camps spoke of apocalyptic devastation and tens of thousands dead" (Amitav Ghosh).
3. Characterized by predictions of or allusions to a disastrous outcome: spoke of the impending economic crisis in apocalyptic terms.

 

[Dave-W]

angels have not genitals, they cannot have sex nor make children,

How can you prove that?

even if they had, if you have bestial sex you will have a child looking like a dog

Since many or most angels are rather human looking, (sometimes even mistaken for humans) I do not see how this holds true.

 

[Echolipse]

?????

"Apocryphal" means not real.

From TheFreeDictionary.com:

1. Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2. Erroneous; fictitious: "Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd ... raced through Russia's trenches" (W. Bruce Lincoln).

OTOH, "Apocalyptic" means:

1. Relating to or predicting the end of the world, especially as described in the Bible or another religious text.
2. Relating to or predicting widespread destruction or the collapse of civilization: "The refugees in the camps spoke of apocalyptic devastation and tens of thousands dead" (Amitav Ghosh).
3. Characterized by predictions of or allusions to a disastrous outcome: spoke of the impending economic crisis in apocalyptic terms.

Hmm....obviously I got the wrong meaning of the word originally. I don't agree on it not being real though, especially since both Jesus and Jude quoted from Enoch, so I don't understand how that could not be considered the word of God. Not to mention, I believe the OT also quotes from it as well.

I honestly believe that when Enoch and the other books in the Septuagint were removed, the RCC was/is trying to keep something from us.

 

[Dave-W]

NO - the septuagint is NOT the gold standard for OT text - the Hebrew Masoretic is.

The book of Enoch was mentioned or alluded to (not sure "quoted" is the right term) is that it was a well known book in its day. Even Paul referred to polytheistic Greek poets as having one thing right:

Acts 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Does that make those poems a part of scripture also? Of course not.

Do you know the history of the septuagint or how it got that name?

It was commissioned by Alexander the Great. He wanted to read the Jewish Torah (5 books of Moses) in his own language. So he hired 70 (sept-) scholars to translate it and supposedly they all agreed word for word. It was finished shortly after his death. But over the following century or so the rest of the Jewish OT and then other writings not part of the Jewish canon were added to it.