Turkey downs Russian warplane near Syria border

PatrickT

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So is this the new German historical revision for the Millennial generation? The Americans did it? Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, et al were just gullible patsies?

No, but should that fact be ignored?

I´ll ask you that as personal question. :) Should the fact that americans heavily promoted Hitler be ignored and left out of history?

If you would run our education system, would you leave out those details or include them to allow the pupils the full spectrum?
 
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RDKirk

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Events leading up to Nov 24th

Oct 3: Russian Su-24 and Su-30 fighters crossed into Turkish airspace north of Latakia in Hatay Province, Turkey. Turkey scrambled two F-16 fighters to intercept, and the Turkish government has warned Russia that any further violations of its air space will make Russia responsible for any unintended consequences.
Oct 5: NATO Warns Russia After Violations of Turkish Airspace: An emergency NATO meeting denounced Russia for 'irresponsible behavior' following reports that Russian warplanes violated Turkish airspace along the Syrian border in two separate incidents on 03 and 04 OCT, calling upon Russia to 'cease and desist' its 'incursions into...NATO airspace'.
Oct 6: Russian warplanes continue to violate Turkish airspace. Turkish officials summoned the Russian Ambassador to Turkey for a third time to warn against repeated Russian violations of Turkish airspace after Russian aircraft entered Turkish airspace twice over the weekend and an unidentified MiG-29 fighter jet harassed two Turkish warplanes on patrol on 05 OCT.
Oct 8: U.S. officials stated that Russian warplanes have flown 'intercept tracks' near U.S. Predator drones operating over ISIS-controlled parts of Syria at least three times since the start of the Russian air campaign on September 30.
Oct 16: A Turkish jet downed a Russian drone that crossed from Syria into Turkey, according to an unnamed U.S. defense official.
Nov 20: Turkish Foreign Minister warned that Russian attacks on Syrian Turkmen villages "could lead to serious consequences."
Nov 22: Turkey refuses to allow Russia to send Mi-28 helicopters to Iraq over its airspace. They were sent over Iranian airspace instead.
Nov 24: Two Turkish F-16 planes shot down a Russian SU-24 jet on November 24 that Turkey claimed was in Turkish airspace and ignored repeated warnings.
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/e...-Since-the-Start-of-the-Russian-Air-Campaign/


It's not difficult to see what the Turks were working up to, if anyone would take a moment to look at the game from their side of the board. This is elementary for intelligence analysis.
 
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RDKirk

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No, but should that fact be ignored?

I´ll ask you that as personal question. :) Should the fact that americans heavily promoted Hitler be ignored and left out of history?

If you would run our education system, would you leave out those details or include them to allow the pupils the full spectrum?

There were American companies that worked with German companies--global commerce that had been done even with the Kaiser. The US was not the only country with companies doing business in Germany in the 30s.

Henry Ford liked Hitler, which was controversial even in the US, but if you're implying that Hitler could not have come to power with "American insistence," you're implying 'way too much. Maybe you should direct that ire at Franco and Mussolini.
 
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Archivist

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No, but should that fact be ignored? I´ll ask you that as personal question. :) Should the fact that americans heavily promoted Hitler be ignored and left out of history? If you would run our education system, would you leave out those details or include them to allow the pupils the full spectrum?

And Hitler and his Nazi today's backed the Friends of New Germany and the Getman Amrrican Bund. Neither ever attracted any significant support in America.

Don't blame the US for what the Germans did by placing Hitler in power.
 
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PatrickT

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There were American companies that worked with German companies--global commerce that had been done even with the Kaiser. The US was not the only country with companies doing business in Germany in the 30s.

Henry Ford liked Hitler, which was controversial even in the US, but if you're implying that Hitler could not have come to power with "American insistence," you're implying 'way too much. Maybe you should direct that ire at Franco and Mussolini.


How should an austrian with no money to campaign win an election without the millions he got from our "transatlantic" friends? :)
 
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PatrickT

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And Hitler and his Nazi today's backed the Friends of New Germany and the Getman Amrrican Bund. Neither ever attracted any significant support in America.

Don't blame the US for what the Germans did by placing Hitler in power.


Too be honest, i give a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] about Hitler. What counts is today and that our nation has a greater power over europe than ever before. Thats what counts, the rest is bla bla
 
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Sketcher

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Too be honest, i give a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] about Hitler. What counts is today and that our nation has a greater power over europe than ever before. Thats what counts, the rest is bla bla
Every German should, he's the reason why Germany was stomped on and split in two.
 
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PatrickT

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Every German should, he's the reason why Germany was stomped on and split in two.

We did learn from it. We pushed europe under our will with a friendly face and gained more power than Hitler ever had. That germany is the hegemon of europe is just the natural order of things.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Except that Syria is not Russian territory, though I'm sure that Putin wouldn't be adverse to taking Syria. He would like another Russian empire. Then maybe he'd become a communist again.
Syria is not Russian territory but it is under control of Syria and their president Assad. Assad has allied with Russia and given Russia permission to use Syrian air space to fight ISIS. Turkey is defending their ISIS allies because ISIS is supplying Turkey with cheap and free oil in return for Turkey's help.

Only a blind Turk sympathizer can't see that Turkey is wrong in this.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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So why is it that Turkey breaks their NATO agreement by not letting the US use Turkish air bases to fight terrorism and ISIS but now that Turkey went and committed another indefensible, murderous act of way they come to run and hide behind the skirt of NATO???

Why does the US put up with this? It's times like this that I'm embarrassed of my own nation because they act stupid.
 
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RDKirk

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So why is it that Turkey breaks their NATO agreement by not letting the US use Turkish air bases to fight terrorism and ISIS but now that Turkey went and committed another indefensible, murderous act of way they come to run and hide behind the skirt of NATO???

Why does the US put up with this? It's times like this that I'm embarrassed of my own nation because they act stupid.

Turkey is letting the US use air bases, but under restrictions that probably do give the Turks some control over the actual targets struck.

http://www.stripes.com/air-force-staging-aircraft-personnel-at-turkish-base-in-diyarbakir-1.370941
 
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RDKirk

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Syria is not Russian territory but it is under control of Syria and their president Assad. Assad has allied with Russia and given Russia permission to use Syrian air space to fight ISIS. Turkey is defending their ISIS allies because ISIS is supplying Turkey with cheap and free oil in return for Turkey's help.

Only a blind Turk sympathizer can't see that Turkey is wrong in this.

Depends on how you define "wrong." In the intelligence business, we were taught to "look at the game from your opponent's side of the board." That's the only way you can understand what his priorities are, how he sees his vulnerabilities and opportunities, and accurately determine what he's going to do next.

Turkey's interest in having the Syrian side of their border in the hands of people they're comfortable with is the same interest every nation has. Nothing inherently "wrong" about that. The Turks are not comfortable with Kurds or with Shiites on their border--this is nothing at all new, but whether we like it or not, that's the way it's been since the border was drawn, and that from ancient animosities long older than the border.

It's not just about Daesh-controlled oil. Unfortunately, the Daesh Sunnis look to the Turks like the best option of neighbors.

But it looks the same way to the Saudis as well, which is why the Saudis have also just been pounding sand.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Turkey is letting the US use air bases, but under restrictions that probably do give the Turks some control over the actual targets struck.

http://www.stripes.com/air-force-staging-aircraft-personnel-at-turkish-base-in-diyarbakir-1.370941
Turkey wasn't allowing the US to use their airbases for a long time and now they do so only with restrictions. What kind of "ally" is that? Only the Turks would be that kind of a "friend", the kind that is always looking to stab you in the back. Embarrassing that the US supports that dictator while decrying someone like Putin or Assad as "dictators" - Erdogan is the worst dictator in that region, by far.
 
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RDKirk

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Turkey wasn't allowing the US to use their airbases for a long time and now they do so only with restrictions. What kind of "ally" is that? Only the Turks would be that kind of a "friend", the kind that is always looking to stab you in the back. Embarrassing that the US supports that dictator while decrying someone like Putin or Assad as "dictators" - Erdogan is the worst dictator in that region, by far.

A number of NATO allies would not let the US overfly their nations for OPERATION EL DIABLO CANYON.

What "dictator?" Turkey's election was more democratic than a whole lot of governments the US works with.

But the US has been using the Turkish bases for decades and decades, and there isn't anywhere else that is as accommodating close enough for continuous operations in Syrian airspace.

Unfortunately, US interests and Turkish interests are diametrically opposed.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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What "dictator?" Turkey's election was more democratic than a whole lot of governments the US works with.
Erdogan. Are you really unaware of what his government is like and what they do? You should research it some more.
 
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wing2000

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Syria is not Russian territory but it is under control of Syria and their president Assad. Assad has allied with Russia and given Russia permission to use Syrian air space to fight ISIS. Turkey is defending their ISIS allies because ISIS is supplying Turkey with cheap and free oil in return for Turkey's help.

Only a blind Turk sympathizer can't see that Turkey is wrong in this.

Turkey is defending it's national interest just as any other country would do in a similar situation. And frankly, the Russians had it coming...it's about time Putin had his wings clipped.
 
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Events leading up to Nov 24th

Oct 3: Russian Su-24 and Su-30 fighters crossed into Turkish airspace north of Latakia in Hatay Province, Turkey. Turkey scrambled two F-16 fighters to intercept, and the Turkish government has warned Russia that any further violations of its air space will make Russia responsible for any unintended consequences.
Oct 5: NATO Warns Russia After Violations of Turkish Airspace: An emergency NATO meeting denounced Russia for 'irresponsible behavior' following reports that Russian warplanes violated Turkish airspace along the Syrian border in two separate incidents on 03 and 04 OCT, calling upon Russia to 'cease and desist' its 'incursions into...NATO airspace'.
Oct 6: Russian warplanes continue to violate Turkish airspace. Turkish officials summoned the Russian Ambassador to Turkey for a third time to warn against repeated Russian violations of Turkish airspace after Russian aircraft entered Turkish airspace twice over the weekend and an unidentified MiG-29 fighter jet harassed two Turkish warplanes on patrol on 05 OCT.
Oct 8: U.S. officials stated that Russian warplanes have flown 'intercept tracks' near U.S. Predator drones operating over ISIS-controlled parts of Syria at least three times since the start of the Russian air campaign on September 30.
Oct 16: A Turkish jet downed a Russian drone that crossed from Syria into Turkey, according to an unnamed U.S. defense official.
Nov 20: Turkish Foreign Minister warned that Russian attacks on Syrian Turkmen villages "could lead to serious consequences."
Nov 22: Turkey refuses to allow Russia to send Mi-28 helicopters to Iraq over its airspace. They were sent over Iranian airspace instead.
Nov 24: Two Turkish F-16 planes shot down a Russian SU-24 jet on November 24 that Turkey claimed was in Turkish airspace and ignored repeated warnings.
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/e...-Since-the-Start-of-the-Russian-Air-Campaign/

With this being the case, Turkey's response was not at all harsh. Turkey warned Russia on October 6th for the 3rd time about violating its airspace. This on top of targeting ethnic Turkmen and targeting those who oppose the terrorist Assad other than ISIS (even though it stated its aim was to get ISIS).
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Turkey is defending it's national interest just as any other country would do in a similar situation. And frankly, the Russians had it coming...it's about time Putin had his wings clipped.
I agree that Turkey was defending its national interest. The problem is that Turkey's national interest in this situation is to aid and abet and support ISIS. Russia is over there doing the job that no Western power wants to do (other than France at this point, perhaps). Russia is there with the blessing of Assad. Turkey is anti-Assad because they are pro-ISIS.

Turkey has coming to them what Putin will do to them, and I will celebrate it when it happens. It's about time Erdogan gets smacked.

If you want to be on the side of Turkey and ISIS that's your prerogative. I'm against them and will remain against them, and I'll be for whoever fights against them. If Putin is going to fight them then I'm on Putin's side.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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With this being the case, Turkey's response was not at all harsh. Turkey warned Russia on October 6th for the 3rd time about violating its airspace. This on top of targeting ethnic Turkmen and targeting those who oppose the terrorist Assad other than ISIS (even though it stated its aim was to get ISIS).
Anyone who considers Assad a "terrorist" is aligned with ISIS, so there you go - good luck with being an ISIS supporter.
 
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