Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[ewq1938]

"Beheaded" is symbolic for "martyrdom."

No it isn't. It means to die by having your head cut off.

John the Baptist was martyred by decapitation; he was beheaded. Stephen was martyred by stoning. James was martyred by sword.

John was beheaded, Stephen was not.

Refusing the mark of the beast

simply means staying faithful to God and His commandments until death.

No that is wrong also. The mark of the beast is described by John as happening in the tribulation when the Antichrist makes everyone take it. Staying faithful to God and His commandments until death is just that, a Christian dying in good standing. Amill redefines everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about.
.

The bodily resurrection of the beheaded/martyred saints does not occur until Jesus' second coming. All the rest of the dead, both good and evil, are resurrected with the power of Jesus' second coming.

The first sentence is true but the second is not. Rev 20 says there is a thousand years separating the two resurrections.

John 5:28-30

Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. niv

The resurrection of ALL the dead physical bodies of both good people and evil people does not happen until Jesus' second coming.

The verse does not say all are resurrected at the same time just no resurrections happens until the second coming. Scripture states the dead in Christ rise first so the dead not in Christ cannot and will not rise with the dead in Christ. I assume you have no explanation about that? No Amil has been able to accept the dead in Christ rise first and claim all the dead rise at that same time.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev shows all the trumpets that are left and there are only 7. I don't know if any have sounded but the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the second coming and neither of those events have happened.

The seventh trumpet already sounded 2000 years ago in about 70 A.D. and I only see two more references to a trumpet in Scripture which do not pertain to the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, their temple, and their city. There is a last trumpet mentioned and it will sound to announce Jesus' second coming so I am reasoning that it will be called the 8th trumpet. The number 8 in Scripture means a completion and/or a new beginning.

The following two Scriptures pertain to Jesus' second coming/appearing:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. niv

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. niv
​

The second coming of Jesus will be the final victory over death. No one shall ever physically die again. The second coming of Jesus will cause the physical bodies of all the dead people to resurrect and become immortal.

 

[ewq1938]

The bush that was burning was not annihilated and neither will the people in hell be annihilated.

So? The burning bush wasn't hell either.

​

The worms in hell do not die because they have an everlasting supply of condemned, immortal physical bodies to feed upon.

Wrong. There are no worms at all.

The fire is never put out. It is an everlasting fire and it punishes the damned forever.

No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.

 

[toLiJC]

Please back up to Daniel chapter 2. Do you find something spiritual behind the nations represented there too? As Daniel said, God showed old Neb' what was to come in the future. Following him, would come the Medo-persian empire, followed by the Grecian empire, followed by Rome. Why make this more complicated that what God made it?

Of course I understand that by ONE SIN the entire planet was brought under a curse, and mankind sold into slavery of sin. But that is NOT what Daniel was writing about.

Daniel 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

In fact, that dream took Neb' from his time to the end of all ages except the final 1000 years.

34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

As it is also written, His glory shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

This dream was about KINGS and kingdoms:
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Even this dream hinted of a time at the end when all these kings would be living AT THE SAME TIME. as in "in the days of these kings." Therefore this dream did indeed include time from Neb' on the the days ahead of us today, but included a hidden meaning that Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and the other nations will have have kings living at the same time in the days just ahead of us today.

Daniel 7 also speaks of the days we are living in:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Make no mistake, John cover these days Daniel wrote of:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Then Daniel wrote of the Millennial Kingdom just as John did in Rev. 20.

Daniel asked an angel about this vision and was told:
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Again Daniel is writing about KINGS and their nations or empires that will be in existence as they are RIGHT NOW in the world.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Again Daniel and John are on the same page. This will be during the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.

Daniel gives us a good ending:
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter.

How strange then that I cannot find ANYTHING in Daniel 2 or Daniel 7 about what you wrote. Why is that?

By the way, this has very little to do with Dave Roberson. Only that He teaches people NOT to pull verses out of their context and that when one meditates on scripture God will reveal His intent.

If you wish to read between the lines and ad lib stuff not written, that is up to you. As for me, I will just stick to exactly what is written. Of course all on this thread understand that Satan deceived Eve and she ate, and then Adam ate, and so the curse of sin came upon the entire world. However, that is not really what Daniel was writing about. He was writing about KINGS and empires that would come after Babylon, right up to the end.

with so many words here you actually said nothing (more) useful, neither did you add anything better to the hitherto prevailing christian tradition, which unfortunately has actually turned out to be not a little vain, the word of faith may have been great, but there was a lot of incomprehension and maybe also misunderstanding

to meditate is kind of inadvisable, because Jesus does not in vain say "when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."(Mark 13:11)

Daniel talks about the four main aspects of the iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in both chapters(2nd and 7th), the clay+iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold in the 2nd chapter, and the four beasts in the 7th chapter - from this point of view it is about (the) same things in both chapters, but in the 2nd chapter there is talk of how even one man could turn out to be a cause of great problems, complications, and troubles, namely, if it commits great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, moreover, no matter who it is/may be, i mean it could be anyone i.e. let's say it is not known who exactly, but the truth is that there have been many spiritual lawbreakers/violators including a lot of humans that have turned themselves into angels of satan through the process of yoga/transcendental meditation, and resurrected in the "darkness" like the Lord, Jesus, Who has been resurrected in the "Light", so, it is not said that only one man brought the sin and the death in the world, but it is said that there were many who did this and that the sin and the death could enter into and settle down in the world by many spiritual lawbreakers/violators i.e. people that commit great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, furthermore, this is the most discussed topic in the biblical scriptures, that's why there is talk of repentance, first of all, in (the) faith i.e. for the believers/worshipers/clerics, and the true Lord God (i again emphasize Lord God, not just God or Lord) is the stone that removes the evil from the sinner(s) - remember how He did cast the devilish spirits out of the possessed, even by denouncing the scribes and pharisees (i.e. the great spiritual lawbreakers/violators in the then israel) with the Word of His Father the Heavenly God

if the sin entered into the world, and even managed to permanently settle down in it, by one spiritual lawbreaker/violator in the beginning, and hereby the death also manifested so, then what would happen if there are millions of such people?!, and(that's why) this is the main warning of the Holy Scripture, namely: at least do not commit and don't let there be spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in the world, and for that reason the first Commandments are strictly spiritual, such as: "you should not have other gods/lords(christs) besides Me (says He, the true One)"(Exodus 20:3), "you should not create a spiritual theory or a spiritual practice by yourself(-selves) in reference to any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth(i.e. in the occult), you should not revere such things (even if they were/are created by someone else, not by you), nor serve them"(Exodus 20:4-6), "you should not use the faith for unclean/self-interested purposes"(Exodus 20:7), "you should not defile the creature/creation/faith, in principle you are free to do everything you want whereby you do not cause evil to your neighbor, but when it is time to exercise/practice (the) faith, do not omit to keep the creature/creation/faith holy (i.e. at least do not commit spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness), because the true Lord God made all the universal creation in six days, and then He has against His will/of necessity fallen into a state of sleepiness(half-sleep) since the seventh day, therefore He blessed the time during which He will be in that state and sanctified the creature/creation/faith (so that the spiritual servants might also sanctify it and wake Him up)"(Exodus 20:8-11)...

Blessings

 

[parousia70]

No that is wrong also. The mark of the beast is described by John as happening in the tribulation when the Antichrist makes everyone take it.

Please quote chapter and verse that Says Antichrist makes people take the mark of the beast.

Amill redefines everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about.

Like the way you are redefining the "Beast of Revelation" into "antichrist" where scripture, unadultrated, knows nothing about it?

No Amil has been able to accept the dead in Christ rise first and claim all the dead rise at that same time.

And no Dispy has been able to accept that the dead in Christ rise first and claim that the living are caught up at the same time.

 

[ewq1938]

Please quote chapter and verse that Says Antichrist makes people take the mark of the beast.

The Antichrist is called the false prophet in Rev. He is also the second beast, and is found in Rev 13.

Like the way you are redefining the "Beast of Revelation" into "antichrist" where scripture, unadultrated, knows nothing about it?

That's not true. Just because John uses Antichrist in one book but a different name in another doesn't mean they aren't the same person.

And no Dispy has been able to accept that the dead in Christ rise first and claim that the living are caught up at the same time.

The living are not caught up at the same time. And anyone that claims all the dead rise at the same time is in direct contradiction to scripture since the dead in Christ are the first of the dead to rise.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev shows all the trumpets that are left and there are only 7. I don't know if any have sounded but the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the second coming and neither of those events have happened.

The 6th is the trib...

Surely you know better than this! Some of your answers are right on. How then can you be so far off here?
What do you mean by "the trib?" Do you mean the 7th week? Or do you mean the days of GREAT tribulation that Jesus spoke of?

If you mean by "trib" the 70th week, it begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial, so "the trib" includes ALL the trumpets and ALL the vials.

If you mean the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, they will not even begin until Rev. chapter 15.

Next, the 7th trumpet is CERTAINLY not the 2nd coming or the 3rd coming. The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week. Much happens then, one of which is Satan cast down, and the kingdoms of the world taken from him and given to Jesus Christ the Lord. But there is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet.

 

[iamlamad]

So? The burning bush wasn't hell either.

​

Wrong. There are no worms at all.



No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.

Then WHY did Jesus say "where the worm dies not?" Was He joking?

 

[iamlamad]

So? The burning bush wasn't hell either.

​

Wrong. There are no worms at all.



No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.

What do you mean by "survive?" The human spirit and soul will exist as long as God exists. They will indeed be tortured forever, just as the righteous will enjoy the blessings of the Lord forever.

 

[iamlamad]

with so many words here you actually said nothing (more) useful, neither did you add anything better to the hitherto prevailing christian tradition, which unfortunately has actually turned out to be not a little vain, the word of faith may have been great, but there was a lot of incomprehension and maybe also misunderstanding

to meditate is kind of inadvisable, because Jesus does not in vain say "when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."(Mark 13:11)

Daniel talks about the four main aspects of the iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in both chapters(2nd and 7th), the clay+iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold in the 2nd chapter, and the four beasts in the 7th chapter - from this point of view it is about (the) same things in both chapters, but in the 2nd chapter there is talk of how even one man could turn out to be a cause of great problems, complications, and troubles, namely, if it commits great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, moreover, no matter who it is/may be, i mean it could be anyone i.e. let's say it is not known who exactly, but the truth is that there have been many spiritual lawbreakers/violators including a lot of humans that have turned themselves into angels of satan through the process of yoga/transcendental meditation, and resurrected in the "darkness" like the Lord, Jesus, Who has been resurrected in the "Light", so, it is not said that only one man brought the sin and the death in the world, but it is said that there were many who did this and that the sin and the death could enter into and settle down in the world by many spiritual lawbreakers/violators i.e. people that commit great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, furthermore, this is the most discussed topic in the biblical scriptures, that's why there is talk of repentance, first of all, in (the) faith i.e. for the believers/worshipers/clerics, and the true Lord God (i again emphasize Lord God, not just God or Lord) is the stone that removes the evil from the sinner(s) - remember how He did cast the devilish spirits out of the possessed, even by denouncing the scribes and pharisees (i.e. the great spiritual lawbreakers/violators in the then israel) with the Word of His Father the Heavenly God

if the sin entered into the world, and even managed to permanently settle down in it, by one spiritual lawbreaker/violator in the beginning, and hereby the death also manifested so, then what would happen if there are millions of such people?!, and(that's why) this is the main warning of the Holy Scripture, namely: at least do not commit and don't let there be spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in the world, and for that reason the first Commandments are strictly spiritual, such as: "you should not have other gods/lords(christs) besides Me (says He, the true One)"(Exodus 20:3), "you should not create a spiritual theory or a spiritual practice by yourself(-selves) in reference to any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth(i.e. in the occult), you should not revere such things (even if they were/are created by someone else, not by you), nor serve them"(Exodus 20:4-6), "you should not use the faith for unclean/self-interested purposes"(Exodus 20:7), "you should not defile the creature/creation/faith, in principle you are free to do everything you want whereby you do not cause evil to your neighbor, but when it is time to exercise/practice (the) faith, do not omit to keep the creature/creation/faith holy (i.e. at least do not commit spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness), because the true Lord God made all the universal creation in six days, and then He has against His will/of necessity fallen into a state of sleepiness(half-sleep) since the seventh day, therefore He blessed the time during which He will be in that state and sanctified the creature/creation/faith (so that the spiritual servants might also sanctify it and wake Him up)"(Exodus 20:8-11)...

Blessings

You will be added to my list of people I will ignore. All you have is strawmen and red herrings.

 

[toLiJC]

You will be added to my list of people I will ignore. All you have is strawmen and red herrings.

man, i do not judge/doom any person, but what if we believe in something of ourselves(the humans)?!, why must we deceive ourselves that we can ostensibly change the infinitely existing word/truth of God when it is unchangeable?!, why must we doom those nations by prophesying non-salvation and destruction/calamity for them instead of praying/working for their lifetime purgation?!

Matthew 15:11-20 "that which cometh out of the mouth(i.e. out of the mouth of the inimically prophesying worshipers/clerics), this defileth a man..... those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart(i.e. from the human spiritual/religious tradition and activity); and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:",

Revelation 16:13-14 "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

so we have no profit in ordering non-salvation and destruction/calamity for our neighbor(s), also because the reward in God the Father would not be (so) attainable

Matthew 5:46 "if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?",

1 John 5:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Blessings

 

[parousia70]

The Antichrist is called the false prophet in Rev. He is also the second beast, and is found in Rev 13.

Scripture nowhere teaches this.
Like you said, "[people can't] redefine everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about."

Again, scripture, unadulterated, knows NOTHING about antichrist of 1 and 2 John being the same entity as the False Prophet or Beast of Revelation.

Such is purely from the inventions and traditions of men.

That's not true. Just because John uses Antichrist in one book but a different name in another doesn't mean they aren't the same person.

Show me the Scriptural teaching that they are the same person.

You can't just invent a connection in the absence of any scriptural teaching of a connection, for "thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about."

 

[Jan001]

Ok, the very first statement:

"Historical evidence shows that Jerusalem, the unbelieving Jews living there, and their temple were all destroyed by the Roman armies in 67-70 A.D. and so this Book/Scroll was written before 67-70 A.D. "

Just because Rome defeated the Jews in 67-70 AD does not mean Revelation was penned before this time. There's scant support in the external evidence. The remainder of your argument falls apart with a faulty assertion ("and so this Book/Scroll was written before 67-70 A.D.") from the beginning. You are letting your theory dictate the date of the book of Revelation while ignoring the opinions of the early theologians after 70 AD.

So the entire premise begins faulty.

The temple in Jerusalem had to be still there in Jerusalem when the Book of Revelation was written so that John could obey God's command to physically measure it. We know that Jerusalem, the temple, and its worshipers were all destroyed before the end of 70 A.D. so this Book had to have been written before 70 A.D.

Revelation 11:1-2
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. niv​

God commanded John to not measure the outer court because the Gentiles (Roman armies) would trample on Jerusalem for 42 months. John was not in Jerusalem during the 42 month trampling of Jerusalem by the Roman armies so he had to have measured the temple before 67 A.D. Therefore, the Book of Revelation was written prior to 67 A.D.

Please explain your position on Revelation 19. Is it a literal event, symbolic, allegorical or all of the above?

Revelation 19 is partly all of the above. Babylon (the great city Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified) was literally destroyed by the Roman armies during their 42 month siege. Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century.

​

 

[redleghunter]

The temple in Jerusalem had to be still there in Jerusalem when the Book of Revelation was written so that John could obey God's command to physically measure it. We know that Jerusalem, the temple, and its worshipers were all destroyed before the end of 70 A.D. so this Book had to have been written before 70 A.D.

Revelation 11:1-2
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. niv​

God commanded John to not measure the outer court because the Gentiles (Roman armies) would trample on Jerusalem for 42 months. John was not in Jerusalem during the 42 month trampling of Jerusalem by the Roman armies so he had to have measured the temple before 67 A.D. Therefore, the Book of Revelation was written prior to 67 A.D.



Revelation 19 is partly all of the above. Babylon (the great city Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified) was literally destroyed by the Roman armies during their 42 month siege. Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century.

​

On Revelation 11 and the measuring of the Temple? That is quite a stretch. Ezekiel also witnessed a measuring of the Temple after it was destroyed by Babylon. John's vision was in Heaven. I think this is a ridiculous stretch to provide evidence for an earlier writing of Revelation.

Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 do not compute with preterism at all. In both accounts The Lord is destroying the enemies of Jerusalem and not destroying the Jews. So both references must be yet future as God did not deliver the Jews in Jerusalem from the Romans.

In Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14, we see God dealing directly against the nations who are against Jerusalem.

How does the above figure into your historical context?

 

[redleghunter]

The temple in Jerusalem had to be still there in Jerusalem when the Book of Revelation was written so that John could obey God's command to physically measure it. We know that Jerusalem, the temple, and its worshipers were all destroyed before the end of 70 A.D. so this Book had to have been written before 70 A.D.

Revelation 11:1-2
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. niv​

God commanded John to not measure the outer court because the Gentiles (Roman armies) would trample on Jerusalem for 42 months. John was not in Jerusalem during the 42 month trampling of Jerusalem by the Roman armies so he had to have measured the temple before 67 A.D. Therefore, the Book of Revelation was written prior to 67 A.D.



Revelation 19 is partly all of the above. Babylon (the great city Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified) was literally destroyed by the Roman armies during their 42 month siege. Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century.

​

On another matter...Your profile shows you are Catholic. How can you adhere to preterism when being a faithful Catholic?

All the prophecies you put in the past are claimed by multiple church fathers as yet future. Irenaeus one of the earliest fathers to opine on Revelation and the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[Jan001]

GET REAL!
Genesis 20:16
And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
Exodus 18:21
Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments
Exodus 32:28
And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Nehemiah 3:13
The valley gate repaired Hanun, and the inhabitants of Zanoah; they built it, and set up the doors thereof, the locks thereof, and the bars thereof, and a thousand cubits on the wall unto the dung gate.
Psalm 91:7
A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psalm 105:8
He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Isaiah 30:17
One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
Isaiah 36:8
Now therefore give pledges, I pray thee, to my master the king of Assyria, and I will give thee two thousand horses, if thou be able on thy part to set riders upon them.
Isaiah 37:36
Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Jeremiah 52:28
This is the people whom Nebuchadrezzar carried away captive: in the seventh year three thousand Jews and three and twenty:
Jeremiah 52:30
In the three and twentieth year of Nebuchadrezzar Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred forty and five persons: all the persons were four thousand and six hundred.
Ezekiel 45:1
Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the Lord, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.
Daniel 8:14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


There are MANY more, showing us that a "thousand" in the bible really means 1000.

Only one example is needed to prove that "a thousand" is sometimes symbolic.

Do you believe that God owns only the cattle on just a thousand hills? I do not. I believe that God owns all the cattle on all the hills.

Psalm 50:10
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. niv

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. niv
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There are no actual days in eternity where God is. Time does not exist. It is the everlasting present. This passage is meant to be symbolic. Peter is simply telling his brethren that they should not be concerned about knowing the exact day of Jesus' second coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. niv
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Paul is telling his brethren that they should not be concerned about the time and date of Jesus' second coming. They should at all times be spiritually ready for His return.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok, so if all 7 trumpets have sounded, then show up in history when each event took place: for example, when was 1/3 of earth's population killed? When did 1/3 of the seas turn to blood? You really do need to get real. NONE of the trumpets have sounded, because before ANY trumpet can sound, the 7th seal must be opened. It has not. Before the 7th seal the 6th seal must be opened. It has not. WAKE UP! None of these have happened. Do you understand what the word FUTURE means?

Your scriptures do indeed point to His second coming. He came once to die. He will come next FOR His bride, just before the 6th seal and PRETRIB and it will the His SECOND time on earth. When he comes as in Rev. 19, that will be His THIRD coming.

I've seen you mention the 6th seal quite often. What are your views on the first 5 seals and timing of them? I ask our of curiosity as I've seen some Messianic theologians opine the first 5 seals were opened over the centuries. I find that approach inconsistent. What are your thoughts?

 

[redleghunter]

No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.

From Daniel chapter 12:

Daniel 12New King James Version (NKJV)


12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.(NKJV)

Everlasting is quite clear in this passage as it is in hundreds of other passages.

 

[Jan001]

"Beheaded" is symbolic for "martyrdom." John the Baptist was martyred by decapitation; he was beheaded. Stephen was martyred by stoning. James was martyred by sword.
GET REAL! "
Beheaded means losing your head! No one here believes your nonsense. WAKE UP! What is Islam's favorite way to murder someone?

The Book of Revelation is written in symbolic/spiritual language. It is not meant to be understood in a strictly literal manner.

Refusing the mark of the Beast means refusing it! Probably by telling them "NO! I don't want your mark."
Did you not stop to think that perhaps a BUDDHIST might refuse the mark? Or an atheist? Or just someone born stubborn? Why do you have to restate what is obvious as written?

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is recorded in two different ways:

Spiritual/prophetic:

Ezekiel 9:3-6
Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” 5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple. niv
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Historical:

2 Chronicles 36:17
He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians, who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and did not spare young men or young women, the elderly or the infirm. God gave them all into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. niv​

These are two records of the same event, but one shows a “mark on their foreheads” and the other one does not. Why aren't these written in the same way? They are not written in the same way because Ezekiel was a prophet and he recorded what he saw in a spiritual vision. The vision was about spiritual things and the “mark” was a spiritual mark. However, the author of 2 Chronicles was a historian and he recorded what was physically seen by the people who witnessed the actual event.

In the Book of Revelation John is recording what he is seeing in a spiritual vision about spiritual matters. John is not writing as a historian but as a prophet.

Man sees the outward appearance of a man, but God sees the spiritual reality of a man's heart. The mark is invisible to man and the seal of the Holy Spirit is invisible to man.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; 22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. rsv​

a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

This is true, but we know that there will be a thousand years between the resurrection of the righteous and of the damned. Make no mistake though, BOTH groups will hear his voice, just a DIFFERENT hour.

Jesus only comes to earth two times. He came the first time 2000 years ago and He will come again for His second appearance at the end of time so that He can judge everyone at the great white throne judgment.

Hebrews 9:27-28
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

Ok, so if all 7 trumpets have sounded, then show up in history when each event took place: for example, when was 1/3 of earth's population killed? When did 1/3 of the seas turn to blood? You really do need to get real. NONE of the trumpets have sounded, because before ANY trumpet can sound, the 7th seal must be opened. It has not. Before the 7th seal the 6th seal must be opened. It has not. WAKE UP! None of these have happened. Do you understand what the word FUTURE means?

Your scriptures do indeed point to His second coming. He came once to die. He will come next FOR His bride, just before the 6th seal and PRETRIB and it will the His SECOND time on earth. When he comes as in Rev. 19, that will be His THIRD coming.

It was future when John wrote it. However, it was to happen soon and it did happen in 67-70 A.D. The first 19 chapters of the Book of Revelation are past history. You attempt to make spiritual things into literal things. Jesus also prophesied that all these things would happen to this generation, the generation of people present in 30 A.D. And, it did happen exactly as Jesus and John prophesied. Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews living there were all destroyed as punishment from God because these Jews refused to acknowledge God's Son Jesus as their Savior/Messiah.

Revelation 1:1
[ Prologue ] The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, niv​

We will agree to disagree.