True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you for proving me right Jason. I never said they obeyed the moral laws with flying colours. It is obvious once again you are trying to mislead people according to what I wrote. I mentioned three moral laws.
You make my point well. You demand the highest standards of obedience from others while continuously excusing yourself when you fail to be honest concerning what others write
I am 57 I have continuously seen in life over decades those who most insist others strictly observe the letter fail the most to observe the letter themselves. You simply bear that truth out

First, age has nothing to do with knowing the truth. Second, you listed certain moral laws that the Pharisees passed with flying colors (Which lets us know you are talking about the moral law). But notice how I do not set out to attack you? My attack is focused on the wrong belief with God’s Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Oh I am sure it is true Jason. I have many years more than you do to draw on personal experience of what I have seen.
You have shown in these debates you are not at all concerned at twisting and distorting what others write. That alone proves me correct. And i am not the only one who notices you do this

Not true at all. Please show me where I distorted what you actually said? Granted, misunderstandings are not the same thing as intentionally trying to deceive or trip up another person in what they are saying.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not true at all. Please show me where I distorted what you actually said? Granted, misunderstandings are not the same thing as intentionally trying to deceive or trip up another person in what they are saying.

You see this is the difference between us. If I know I am in the wrong I have a conscience because of it. When you are in the wrong you simply excuse it
Age has much to do with it young man.
And you prove me correct that I an more aggrieved by sin than you are
Don't forget Jason, I once had your views therefore I understand very well!!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not true at all. Please show me where I distorted what you actually said? Granted, misunderstandings are not the same thing as intentionally trying to deceive or trip up another person in what they are saying.

You have been shown already.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You see this is the difference between us. If I know I am in the wrong I have a conscience because of it. When you are in the wrong you simply excuse it
Age has much to do with it young man.
And you prove me correct that I an more aggrieved by sin than you are

First, I have asked you repeatedly to show me where I accused you of something that is not true or for you to explain yourself. But you have never made any attempt to do so yet. I do want to make ammends if you think I have said something you do not believe. Granted, there is a truth about your beliefs that you may not accept. But that does not change reality or truth of such a belief (even if you do not accept it). I am sure you can say the same for me, but the difference is that truth is on my side in the fact that the Bible backs me up and by the fact that I can use a real world example to show my belief is based in the real world.

Second, the way that you communicate sometimes is not always clear. Take for example, one of your recent posts: You started talking about the moral law in regards to the Pharisees passing certain moral laws with flying colors and then you turned around and said they did not keep the moral law. So which is it? What was the point of saying to me about bringing up how the Pharisees passed certain moral laws like not using bad language? Were you deliberately try to confuse me or was it simply an accidental miscommunication on your part? But then again, we are not exclusively discussing the topic anymore. Is your argument so weak that you cannot explain the verses I brought forth previously within this thread so you need to then focus your attack on me? I ask you not to accuse you, but I ask because I just want you to be honest with yourself.

Don't forget Jason, I once had your views therefore I understand very well!!!

Again, I do not believe you had my views. For you did not believe exactly as I once did by the revelation of the Spirit. When you believed in Conditional Salvation, you most likely did not believe:

(a) Works are God directed. So there is no such thing as man directed works (if you are a believer).
(b) Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.
(c) The book of Romans and Galatians is talking about the Law of Moses or man directed works.
(d) James is talking about God directed works in James chapter 2.
(e) Once Saved Always Saved is pure evil and leads people into sin.
(f) The Old Covenant Law is no longer in effect and the New Covenant Law is now in force.
(g) All faithful believers are born again in both the Old and New (and the Spirit lived within them).
(h) The Law of Moses is made of 613 Commands (and not just the 10).

Side Note:

As for your statement again about being more grieved by sin: Well, again, how can you be more grieved by sin more than me if you make excuses for it by saying that certain believers can die in unrepentant sin in certain cases? How can you be more grieved by sin by saying that believers will be found as sinners? How can you be more grieved by sin if you take offense to my emphasis on saying we have to obey God's Commands under the New Testament and that there are dire consequences in the after-life in not obeying many of them? For there is a difference between the sorrow of the world (of which Judas had) versus Godly sorrow that leads men to true repentance and the fruits thereof.



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[Bible Highlighter]

You have been shown already.

Which Post #'s? Which paragraphs?


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[Bible Highlighter]

But let's put the fruit of our beliefs to the test.
I will answer the following if you do so first.

Do you currently hate others?
Do you currently engage in any kind of sexual immorality or struggle with it daily?
Do you currently not forgive anyone?
Do you currently use bad language?
Do you currently lie?
Do you currently get drunk or tipsy with alcohol on occasion?
Would you be willing to kill another person in self defense?
Do people find you generally cold or do they find you warm and loving?
Is your life ruled by God or money?
If you were given a million dollars, what would you do with it?

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

First, I have asked you repeatedly to show me where I accused you of something that is not true or for you to explain yourself. But you have never made any attempt to do so yet. I do want to make ammends if you think I have said something you do not believe. Granted, there is a truth about your beliefs that you may not accept. But that does not change reality or truth of such a belief (even if you do not accept it). I am sure you can say the same for me, but the difference is that truth is on my side in the fact that the Bible backs me up and by the fact that I can use a real world example to show my belief is based in the real world.

Second, the way that you communicate sometimes is not always clear. Take for example, one of your recent posts: You started talking about the moral law in regards to the Pharisees passing certain moral laws with flying colors and then you turned around and said they did not keep the moral law. So which is it? What was the point of saying to me about bringing up how the Pharisees passed certain moral laws like not using bad language? Were you deliberately try to confuse me or was it simply an accidental miscommunication on your part? But then again, we are not exclusively discussing the topic anymore. Is your argument so weak that you cannot explain the verses I brought forth previously within this thread so you need to then focus your attack on me? I ask you not to accuse you, but I ask because I just want you to be honest with yourself.



Again, I do not believe you had my views. For you did not believe exactly as I once did by the revelation of the Spirit. When you believed in Conditional Salvation, you most likely did not believe:

(a) Works are God directed. So there is no such thing as man directed works (if you are a believer).
(b) Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.
(c) The book of Romans and Galatians is talking about the Law of Moses or man directed works.
(d) James is talking about God directed works in James chapter 2.
(e) Once Saved Always Saved is pure evil and leads people into sin.
(f) The Old Covenant Law is no longer in effect and the New Covenant Law is now in force.
(g) All faithful believers are born again in both the Old and New (and the Spirit lived within them).
(h) The Law of Moses is made of 613 Commands (and not just the 10).

Side Note:

As for your statement again about being more grieved by sin: Well, again, how can you be more grieved by sin more than me if you make excuses for it by saying that certain believers can die in unrepentant sin in certain cases? How can you be more grieved by sin by saying that believers will be found as sinners? How can you be more grieved by sin if you take offense to my emphasis on saying we have to obey God's Commands under the New Testament and that there are dire consequences in the after-life in not obeying many of them? For there is a difference between the sorrow of the world (of which Judas had) versus Godly sorrow that leads men to true repentance and the fruits thereof.



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I have already plainly showed you what you wrote that is misleading and untrue. It does you no credit to deny it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Which Post #'s? Which paragraphs?


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But let's put the fruit of our beliefs to the test.
I will answer the following if you do so first.

Do you currently hate others?
Do you currently engage in any kind of sexual immorality or struggle with it daily?
Do you currently not forgive anyone?
Do you currently use bad language?
Do you currently lie?
Do you currently get drunk or tipsy with alcohol on occasion?
Would you be willing to kill another person in self defense?
Do people find you generally cold or do they find you warm and loving?
Is your life ruled by God or money?
If you were given a million dollars, what would you do with it?

...

You missed the most important one out
Do you in your heart seek praise/recognition from men, or in your heart do you want God alone to receive the praise and glory for any improvements in your life?
I would find it hard to believe you only want God to have the glory, for you do not stress the live nercy and compassion of God but a law of righteousness that does not exist under the new covenant
Your list could be seen as an attempt to boast.
The person who seeks glory only for God is a person of truth and there is nothing false about them john 7:19

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have already plainly showed you what you wrote that is misleading and untrue. It does you no credit to deny it

There were some posts I missed by you due to the fact that I was either busy or in the fact that you wrote book length posts with no real focus on Scripture. I said I was willing to make ammends if you actually show me what I said that you do not believe. Granted, as I said before, this would not include you denying reality or truth, though.

In other words, if our roles were reversed, I would repeat what I found to be offensive by you so as to make ammends.

So are you willing to do that?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You missed the most important one out
Do you in your heart seek praise/recognition from men, or in your heart do you want God alone to receive the praise and glory for any improvements in your life?
I would find it hard to believe you only want God to have the glory, for you do not stress the live nercy and compassion of God but a law of righteousness that does not exist under the new covenant
Your list could be seen as an attempt to boast.
The person who seeks glory only for God is a person of truth and there is nothing false about them john 7:19

No. It is not attempt to boast because nobody knows who I am. I am not going by my full real name here.

 

[stuart lawrence]

B

But let's put the fruit of our beliefs to the test.
I will answer the following if you do so first.

Do you currently hate others?
Do you currently engage in any kind of sexual immorality or struggle with it daily?
Do you currently not forgive anyone?
Do you currently use bad language?
Do you currently lie?
Do you currently get drunk or tipsy with alcohol on occasion?
Would you be willing to kill another person in self defense?
Do people find you generally cold or do they find you warm and loving?
Is your life ruled by God or money?
If you were given a million dollars, what would you do with it?

...

Btw
You could keep every one of the things you have mentioned in your list and still break the moral law. If you do not believe that you prove my point that you water down the law of God. Now listen carefully and quote me word for word not with distortions.
The problem Paul and the Pharisees had pertained to the law no one but they and God need know if they broke.
The law that related to the inner man. They would not have had extra marital affairs, got drunk, used foul language, they did good deeds, knew the literal words of the the scriptures off by heart and superficially would I am sure have been viewed as people who kept your list.
But it was the inside hadon that was the problem
And scripturally, those who most demand the letter be nigh on perfectly kept are the most corrupted on the inside.
Your list shows how far away you are from understanding the heart of the gospel message.
Your message I very weak. I once had it. The message I believe I now is far more powerful, for it understands the message behind the letter, whereas when i stated what you do now I only had the literal letter

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. It is not attempt to boast because nobody knows who I am.

Lol, that hadn't stopped many on the internet

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol, that hadn't stopped many on the internet

Lol, that hadn't stopped many on the internet

Boasting would include giving credit to yourself. I have always stated many times here that I believe it is Christ working in me. For was Paul boasting in 1 Corinthians 15:10?

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[stuart lawrence]

Boasting would include giving credit to yourself. I have always stated many times here that I believe it is Christ working in me. For was Paul boasting in 1 Corinthians 15:10?

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I thought that would be your reply, however that does not stop boasting, for you would be stating that you had resolutely looked to Christ and not sinned so hs could do the work in you. Ultimately, for you the emphasis is on you and not Christ
You need to go beyond the literal letter Jason, it leaves you with a weak message and preachers who follow it rarely have churches packed out. The flock they do have predominantly come from more loving secure backgrounds and are therefore from the more academically gifted and affluent half of society. Preach a weak message that is solely based on the literal letter and weak results must follow. The power is when you let the holy spirit guide you into understand the truth of the message behind the letter

 

[Bible Highlighter]

B
Btw
You could keep every one of the things you have mentioned in your list and still break the moral law.

Yes, I am aware of that. I was not listing a comprehensive exhaustive list of all moral laws. The point was to show you that Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruits. Do you have the fruits of God in your life to prove that He lives in you? Does one have the fruit of God if they obey just some of the moral laws? I would say no. For example: If a believer hated all the time, but yet they obeyed a lot of the other moral laws, would they have the fruit of God in their life? That would be a "no" because they are picking and choosing which laws of God (that have dire after life consequences in disobeying them) that they want to obey.

If you do not believe that you prove my point that you water down the law of God. Now listen carefully and quote me word for word not with distortions.

Which Law do you think is in effect? The Old Covenant Law or the New Covenant Laws? Or do you think there are no laws in effect for the believer salvation wise?

The problem Paul and the Pharisees had pertained to the law no one but they and God need know if they broke.
The law that related to the inner man. They would not have had extra marital affairs, got drunk, used foul language, they did good deeds, knew the literal words of the the scriptures off by heart and superficially would I am sure have been viewed as people who kept your list.
But it was the inside hadon that was the problem
And scripturally, those who most demand the letter be nigh on perfectly kept are the most corrupted on the inside.
Your list shows how far away you are from understanding the heart of the gospel message.
Your message I very weak. I once had it. The message I believe I now is far more powerful, for it understands the message behind the letter, whereas when i stated what you do now I only had the literal letter

Your message is not powerful because it allows for sin on some level. God cannot condone such a message because He is holy and righteous.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I thought that would be your reply, however that does not stop boasting, for you would be stating that you had resolutely looked to Christ and not sinned so hs could do the work in you. Ultimately, for you the emphasis is on you and not Christ
You need to go beyond the literal letter Jason, it leaves you with a weak message and preachers who follow it rarely have churches packed out. The flock they do have predominantly come from more loving secure backgrounds and are therefore from the more academically gifted and affluent half of society. Preach a weak message that is solely based on the literal letter and weak results must follow. The power is when you let the holy spirit guide you into understand the truth of the message behind the letter

Then Paul was boasting in 1 Corinthians 15:10? He said he labored more than all of them. So was Paul in the wrong for saying that?


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[ToBeLoved]

Boasting would include giving credit to yourself. I have always stated many times here that I believe it is Christ working in me. For was Paul boasting in 1 Corinthians 15:10?

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If it is Christ working in you and not yourself than why are you so worried about sin?

If.. If you REALLY put your faith in Christ working in you. That through Christ you can do all things, than you would not be checking and double-checking everything you do.

If.. It is Christ in you, then you are spiritually with Christ each minute of each day as Jesus was with the Father. But then, if that is what is going on, you break back into your own 'carnal' self to double-check the suppose workings of Christ in you to see if you have committed sins. Sins unto death as you say.

So which is it? I guarantee that when Christ was spiritually with His Father while He was on earth He wasn't checking Himself against sin. He stayed spiritually WITH the Father and He KNEW that was the right path.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then Paul was boasting in 1 Corinthians 15:10? He said he labored more than all of them. So was Paul in the wrong for saying that?


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Paul only said that to prove a point. Let's not take it out of context.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, if you are afraid of boasting or in me boasting (even though that was not my intention that you falsely accuse me of), we can always PM (Private Message) each other in regards to these questions (So nobody knows). But I have a sneaky feeling that you are not going to do that because I believe your belief does not bear fruit in regards to some of the basics of the faith that a believer is supposed to naturally have (As a result of God living within them).

But I do enjoy in being proven wrong if it leads to the glory of God.


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