difference with Baptists?

[bermuda girl]

I am a Baptist, and some in my husband's family are Lutheran. Most of them don't want to discuss the difference in our beliefs, but our children (the cousins) want to know about the differences. I get the feeling that the kids are unsure whether one is right over the other when it comes to getting to Heaven. For the record, my husband and I don't speak in terms of right and wrong, and thankfully the cousins discuss not in terms of "what I believe" but by quoting Scripture--love that! They feel like we all believe the same thing, but I can't tell my kids that for sure because the adults don't really want to talk about it. However, all the children (ours and their cousins) want to be sure their cousins will be in Heaven with them, and I think that's a great thing! So please help me open up this discussion.

Can anyone please help me to understand the Lutheran doctrine concerning what we would call "salvation"? From my limited conversations with Lutherans, it sounds like we all agree that Jesus bridged the gap from our sinful selves to God through his death, burial, and resurrection. I think we even use the same terminology that it's by grace alone through faith alone. After that, I've got no idea, and I need help please What about works before or after to keep one's salvation? What about baptism? Is that a way to salvation?

I apologize for the many questions, and I certainly hope that my spirit of truly wanting to openly discuss and understand this all shines through. I do understand that some make sweeping judgments of others based simply on denomination, but I do not. I'm sure you don't either. I truly want to understand this, especially as this is our family.

 

[Tangible]

I would suggest a very good explanation of the Lutheran faith in Gene Veith's book The Spirituality of the Cross: The Way of the First Evangelicals, available in two editions (the first edition can be found very inexpensively on Amazon.)

For a quick rundown, see here: http://www.lcms.org/faqs/denominations#baptist

Having grown up Baptist and converted to Lutheranism, I would say that the main differences are ...

Baptists believe that man participates in his own conversion by surrendering his will or making a decision. Lutherans believe that natural man's will is bound to his sinful flesh and God must act first to convert the will in order to affect a person's salvation.

Baptists believe that the Holy Spirit operates apart from physical means, Lutherans believe that the Holy Spirit works through the physical means of his Body, the Church, and through the proclamation of his Word (through physical speaking and hearing, reading and writing), and through his Word attached to visible signs (sacraments) such as water, bread and wine.

Baptists view baptism and communion as laws to be followed, with very specific requirements for baptism and strangely very lax requirements for communion. Lutherans view baptism and communion as means God uses, when combined with his Word and promises, to convey grace and salvation to us sinners.

Lutherans make a very thorough distinction between Law and Gospel in scripture. The Law guides our temporal governments, convicts sinners of their sins, and teaches us how to love our neighbor. The Gospel is always and only about Christ and what he has done for us and for our salvation. Baptists tend to confuse law and gospel, or consider that once a person responds to the gospel that they must follow the law in order to continually prove their salvation to themselves and others.

Lutherans look to Christ crucified and their baptism for assurance of faith. Baptists look to the sincerity of their own decision and their subsequent good works for assurance of faith.

Baptist worship consciously avoids historical, pre-Reformation appearance and practice, and rejects anything that appears "Catholic". Lutherans continue many aspects of historical worship, retaining much of what was good and proper in a scriptural context from pre-Reformation worship and practice. This is why Lutheran worship may appear to a Baptist to be very "Catholic". While there is an outward similarity between Roman Catholic and Lutheran worship, the underlying theology is very different.

 

[bermuda girl]

Thank you so very much for your informative response. You have both illuminated the subject and prompted some new questions as well. I am just delighted to be able to have an open discussion about this. I am truly wanting to understand the Lutheran faith so I can better communicate with my children, as well as their cousins, about the differences when they ask.

I read the link you provided--thank you!

One question we all have, especially the kids, is: Would Lutherans then not consider Baptists as Christians/fellow believers/on their way to Heaven? Are the differences viewed as such that Lutherans would view Baptist confession/salvation as insufficient? I am not suggesting we argue who is right/wrong in this respect, and I would not be offended if you come out and say that you and/or other Lutherans would not consider Baptists as believers. Again, I'm really trying to be as informed as possible and weigh all of these differences by comparing them to Scripture. I am not trying pick a fight. I'm curious whether our differences are so severe when it comes to salvation/means to Heaven that it would be a divisive issue to begin with (which is perhaps why they avoid discussing it when the children ask). I realize some Baptists would feel that way about Lutherans, but we would not.

Baptists believe that man participates in his own conversion by surrendering his will or making a decision. Lutherans believe that natural man's will is bound to his sinful flesh and God must act first to convert the will in order to affect a person's salvation.

The idea that Baptists take part in their salvation is something I really need to think over. I've never viewed it as me having done something as Christ's work was sufficient. But again, I need to really mull this over, but I'm so excited someone answered so quickly I may be thinking out loud here . . . how is the Holy Spirit convicting a person and that person surrendering to it (Baptist view of salvation) different from what you said above? When I read that "God must act first to convert the will" I guess I was equating that with conviction--not the same? If it's different, how does a Lutheran know he/she has been saved? Again, I can't say enough that I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm not putting your doctrine on trial when I ask questions. I am sincerely wanting to understand.

The other broad question I have is when you say that you look to Christ crucified and baptism for assurance, I don't understand what you mean. I guess that's why I asked above how a Lutheran knows he/she has been saved. If you're baptized as an infant, how does that give you assurance? I know you must know as you grew up Baptist, but in case anyone else answers, it might help to understand that my confusion/lack of understanding is probably due to my background and understanding of salvation. I'm coming from a background where a person feels the Spirit's conviction on his heart, realizes his sinful state, recognizes his need for a Savior, and accepts the gift of grace God gives freely to all. Where does this diverge from Lutheran thought? It sounds like the same thing that is referred to when saying God's grace works through
His Word and the sacraments--am I misunderstanding? If God works through these things, then does taking communion or being baptized in a Lutheran church mean you are saved, or am I oversimplifying?

Thanks to all for understanding that these are questions, not challenges, to your doctrine.

 

[Resha Caner]

One question we all have, especially the kids, is: Would Lutherans then not consider Baptists as Christians/fellow believers/on their way to Heaven?

We would never judge anybody - not even those who openly state they are not Christian. It is never our place to comment on whether someone is saved or not. Instead, we are witnesses for the Gospel, so we preach Christ. Many people take offense at the message we deliver, but that is merely the work of the Spirit and the Law showing them they need Christ.

In other words, we are willing to explain why we are different from Baptists and why we think Baptists are wrong on some points, but we will never extend that into a judgement of someone's eternal fate. God will be the judge. People can be wrong and still be saved - that is the beauty of Christianity. What we can bring is the assurance of 1 John 5:13 - it is possible to know you are saved.

. . . how is the Holy Spirit convicting a person and that person surrendering to it (Baptist view of salvation) different from what you said above? When I read that "God must act first to convert the will" I guess I was equating that with conviction--not the same?

Since I'm not familiar with Baptist theology, I probably can't give a good answer. On the surface the words are very similar, but the underlying theology may be very different. What I will say is that in my experience the difference is usually the "make a decision for Christ" thing. In many churches you decide to be Christian and then you're baptized. In the Lutheran church it begins with Baptism. Baptism brings faith.

If you're baptized as an infant, how does that give you assurance?

I come from a Methodist background, so not exactly the same theology, but I struggled with the same question. It again stems from ideas of an "age of accountability", and the idea that you are "deciding for Christ" before Baptism. How can an infant decide? The answer is: they don't. Baptism comes first.

Additionally, Baptism is not a one time event. It is a lifetime experience. Baptism is an act of God, not of man. My Baptism is still affecting me - still creating faith in me - and that is why it gives me assurance.

A pastor once pointed something out to me that I find very convincing regarding infant baptism. Hopefully it helps you as well. There is always a debate regarding whether infant baptism is Biblical. It's not exactly the same thing, but recall that in Judaism children are dedicated on the 8th day. So even if it is not Baptism, even in Judaism there is the idea that God has a ritual for children. Note how this eliminates the need to pretend children are innocent - that they don't need Baptism until they are "accountable". It also eliminates the conundrum over 1 Peter 3:21. Baptism saves you - not because of a human act, but because of God's action ... and it is a sacramental gift - not a requirement. God can save apart from Baptism, but if one has the opportunity to be Baptized, why would they ever reject such a gift?

 

[Mediaeval]

Bermuda girl, very insightful questions on your part. As a former Baptist and Presbyterian, I eventually discovered that Lutherans taught the Gospel the most clearly of all three groups.

Luther taught that one must look outside of one's self, not at one's faith or works, for assurance. Christ crucified means objectively that He is my Savior, that His blood was shed for me for the forgiveness of sins, so I should just believe that and rejoice. I don't have to wait until I find sufficient warrant in myself for believing before I conclude that Christ is my Savior.

Baptism's role in assurance is part of that looking outside of one's self. Baptism affirms that God is my Father, that my sins are washed away.