More specifically, this 'reformed Egyptian' written on gold plates.
So you consider virtually any written language aside from Cuneiform or Chinese to be "Reformed Egyptian?" Then if we find a gold plate written in English you will consider it evidence of Smith's claim? Not very persuasive.
Isn't that a bit like arguing that because we are using Arabic numerals therefore we are writing in "Reformed Arabic"?
Yeah, I'm looking specifically for an Israeli text written Reformed Egyptian a gold plate. Can you give me evidence of that?
Of course I don't consider "any written language" to be "Reformed Egyptian,"
just those that can be traced back to demotic Egyptian. A lot of alphabet letters in modern Europe, Russia, & America, can be traced back to the Phoenician alphabet. The Phoenicians homeland is said to have been a narrow strip along the coast of Syria which included the ancient seaports of Tyre & Sidon. The Phoenicians built ships & sailed the Mediterranean sea, & as traders, they set up mercial centers & may have even sailed in a clockwise direction round the whole continent of Africa, as commissioned by Pharaoh Necho, some time between 609 BC & 593 BC.
The Phoenicians also developed an alphabet, in the which "...
they took the hieratic script of ancient Egypt & transformed & modified it into a form suited to Semitic languages. From this point the Phoenician alphabet was still further modified by the Greeks, who inserted vowels & made other changes. The role of the Phoenicians in the evolution of writing from the ancient pictograms to the forms practised today cannot therefore be over emphasized." It seems that the greek language also has it's roots in the Egyptian writing system also. The Minoans are said to have had three different phases in the evolution of their writing system. Sir Arthur Evans showed that the first phase consisted of pictograms analogous "to the Egyptian hieroglyphs, which was followed by a more cursive or flowing form which seems to have been an early form of Greek...." Michael Ventris & John Chadwick, worked to decipher the "Linear B" a fragment of a late Minoan tablet. (See: The Mediterranean (Cradle of Western Culture), by Richard Carrington, 1971, A Studio Book, The Viking Press, N.Y., p.112 & see also the heading: "The Ancient Greek World."). The writers of
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, tell us that the native script of pharaonic Egyptian appears in 3 forms, the hieroglyphic, which, according to this source means in greek "sacred carving," (hieros glyphe). And a form called "hieratic" which in greek means "priestly," (hieratikos). And the 3rd being the demotic or "popular," (demotikos), form of Egyptian writing. The other two forms, the Hieratic & the demotic are said to have been adaptations of the early form, the hieroglyphics. This book goes on say that the hieratic script is a cursive form of hieroglyphic writing which had been reduced to formal symbols which was no longer pictorial, & was thus for ease of rapid writing. The demotic is said here to have been an even more rapid & abbreviated form of hieratic handwriting that is said here to have first developed some time in the 7th century B.C., & lasted until about the 5th century A.D. This book described the sample of demotic writing as found on the Rosetta Stone as being "...an abbreviated & modified form of Egyptian hieratic...." (
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1664-1667, see also:
The Birth of Writing, by Robert Claiborne, p.40-1.)
"Then if we find a gold plate written in English you will consider it evidence of Smith's claim? Not very persuasive." My response to this is to point out how some anti-Mormon "Christians" have
ignored the greater parallels, (to demotic Egyptian), in the published samples of writing from the Gold Plates, (which Joseph Smith gave to Martin Harris, who showed them to Prof. Anthon, thus, "
the Anthon Transcript.") Ignored them, but have noted in the samples, they could write an English looking comment, to vilify
the parallels, which are many, as being closer to "
deformed English." They did this, perhaps not knowing that that perhaps they could have used the sample, because
English goes back to demoic Egyptain. Thus, there are characters that look like English letters, with some differences of course too.
Where bible evidences crosses over into Book of Mormon evidences, is
the Lachish Letters. Written during Book of Mormon's Lehi & Nephi's time, about 6-5th cent. B.C. They use characters, Egyptian demotic types, to write Hebrew comments, or
the language of the Egyptians & the learning of the Jews, (BOM, 1 Nephi 1:2).
A number of graves around southern Italy, & Crete have also been found to have had writings inscribed on "gold plates."
(Other World Journeys, by Carol Zaleski, Oub. by Oxford Un. Press, 1987, p.18, see note 30, dated 4th cent. B.C.).
Greek tablets of bronze, as well as thin plates of lead marked with inscriptions. (The Archaolog. Zeitung for 1877, p.196; & id. for 1878, p.71; Franz, Elementa Epigr. Graecae, p.168; & Roberts, Greek Epigraphy, p.234-242).
Franklin S. Harris, Jr., in 1953 presented a number of examples of ancient writings on metallic plates. In the British Museum, in London, are a number examples of ancient writings on metallic plates. 25 silver plates, of the Pali manuscript beautifully engraved in Singhalese characters, giving Buddha's first sermon at Benares India. Also, 2 thin gold plates with Javanese characters, have been found. Another example of writing on gold was found in the tomb Menkure of 2800 B.C., the builder of the 3rd pyramid at Giza. The "pseudo-hieroglyphic" inscriptions on bronze tablets found by Dunand in Lebanon at Byblus, have been said to date back to the 18th century B.C. The Demotic Chronicle of Egypt was also said to be kept on plates. The Boss of Tarkondemos consisted of a round silver plate, with Hittite writings & cuneiform writing of Assyria.
Other samples, claimed could be authentic
writing on gold plates, & other types of metals.
Copper Scroll, found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Qumran by an archeologist in 1952. Its
Hebrew text was inscribed on
two rolls of coppper, and dates to
50-100 AD.
Archeologists in 1938, in Persepolis, near modern day Shiraz, Iran. There were
two gold plates and two silver plates in a stone box, written on in cuneiform script. The plates date to
518 – 515 BC.
Silver Scrolls, dating to 600 BC. The text, written in old Hebrew, with Egyptian character influences, comes from primarily Num. 6:24-26.
Petelia tablet, one of the Orphic Gold Plates, dating to fourth century BC. (Francis Legge wrote of the "plates of Naples" which are now in the Naples Museum, & which contain the Orphic poems, written on gold plates.
(Fore Runners And Rivals Of Christianity) From 330 B.C. to 330 A.D., 1: p.134-5)
.
Robert Claiborne depicts the famous 6th cent. B.C., gold plate of the Persian King Darius, that has ancient writings inscribed in old persian, Elamite & Babylonian. He mentioned that a duplicate copy on a silver plate, was with the other. Darius had placed these records in the audience hall at Persepolis, during the 6th century B.C. Others have mentioned a 3rd plate, or 3rd copy with the other 2. Claiborne depicts another example of metallic plates. "Dating from 500 B.C., these two golden tablets inscribed in Phoenician & Etruscan were dedicated to a goddess by an Etruscan king, marking his 3rd year on the throne...."
(The Birth of Writing (The Emergence of Man), by Robert Claiborne, & Ed.s of Time-Life Bk.s, 1974, p.73, 132-3; &
The Last Two Million Years, by Reader's Digest History of Man, 1973, Pleasantville, N.Y., & Montreal, p.108.) Another sample of writing on metal is seen on Etruscan priests' bronze "...sheep's liver, found at Piacenza in north Italy,... It is marked in sections, each bearing the name of..." [what the Etruscan Priests believed was their] "...chief divinity and a number of lesser gods...."
(Ibid., p.109.)
In the
ancient Phoenician city of Byblos, some scripts were written on stone & "...
bronze objects, found in the 1920s, and contain 114 different symbols, nearly half of which
are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs.... The Maya, who flourished in the Yucatan peninsula from AD 300 to 900, left many examples of their script carved on huge pillars,
engraved on metal, or painted on pottery...." (Ibid., p.303, emphasis added).
More studies on ancients writing on different types of metals.
See also H. Curtis Wright, “Ancient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,” in By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, edited by John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks. SLC and Provo, Utah: Deseret Book Company and FARMS, 1990, Vol. 2, pp. 273-334.
The ancients used bronze, copper, gold, silver, brass, iron, & other metals to write upon. Such as in the case with a "bronze plaque inscribed with raised Himyaritic characters." This sample of ancient metallic writing comes from S. Arabia, & has been dated as being from the 1st century A.D. Egyptian writings were written on papyrus or ostraca, & were carved on stone monuments, engraved on wood, but also on "metal." The copper scroll found in cave 3 at Khirbet Qumran has been dated here to be a late 1st century A.D. work. (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (A 3 Volume Set), 1st Pub. in Australia in 1980, by Hodder & Stoughton, C/R The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962, & The Un. & Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980, p. 375, 1665 & 1667, see also: Jer. 36:4, 18, 23; 45:1, etc.)
Other Sources:
http://reformed-egyptian.com/
Voices In Stone, (The Decipherment of Ancient Scripts & Writings), by Ernst Doblhofer, 1957, translated by Mervyn Savill, Pub. by Viking Press, N.Y., 1961, p. 220-226, fig. 66 b, & 67-8. See also: The Birth of Writing, by Robert Claiborne, Pub. Time-Life Mag., 1974, p. 118-21.
The Story of Archaeological Decipherment, by Maurice Pope, op. cit., p.124-5, & fig. 78.
The Encyclopedia of Ancient Civilizations, Edited by Arthur Cotterell, 1980, Penguin Books, see pages 171-174, see metallic sample on p.172.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030419093942/http://www.restorationhistory.com/rh/bom.html