What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

[BobRyan]

More specifically, this 'reformed Egyptian' written on gold plates.

So you consider virtually any written language aside from Cuneiform or Chinese to be "Reformed Egyptian?" Then if we find a gold plate written in English you will consider it evidence of Smith's claim? Not very persuasive.

Isn't that a bit like arguing that because we are using Arabic numerals therefore we are writing in "Reformed Arabic"?

Yeah, I'm looking specifically for an Israeli text written Reformed Egyptian a gold plate. Can you give me evidence of that?

The simple fact is "in the real word" when someone claims to have "an accurate translation from language A -- to language B" the ONLY way to know if that is true or not - is to have an independent expert in BOTH languages take a look at the translation and evaluate it - word for word or at the least - phrase for phrase.

If the starting point is "sorry nobody has access to the source document text - copied or not" - then the "test of a translation" project is at a "dead end" before it ever gets off the ground.

to then make stories up about having "good feelings" -- is simply begging to be deceived.

What is more - there is not one text of scripture that says that the "gift of prophecy" consists of "translating from language A -- to language B" -- not even once is that said to be the case. Much less the fanatical application of "seer stones" that translate letters for you.

 

[Ironhold]

The argument that smashing the press should they happen to print an article about Smith's polygamy - "as if that is ok and normal" - is right out of communist third world hand-book.

in Christ,

Bob

The First Amendment to the US Constitution didn't extend below the federal level until a series of court decisions in the early 1900s established that state and local jurisdictions were under the same obligations as well.

Before then, it was up to the local and state jurisdictions to determine what was and wasn't kosher. Illinois Common Law said that nuisance presses could be shuttered, and so the original order as given by the city council was entirely legal. It's incidents like this which leads me to question how much - or little - most critics of the church know about American history.

 

[Ironhold]

So what is the 'ideal' in Mormonism, monogamy or polygamy?

The ideal is faithfulness to one's spouse(s), regardless of what system happens to be in place.

 

[BobRyan]

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

The ideal is faithfulness to one's spouse(s), regardless of what system happens to be in place.

According to the BoM polygamy is not faithfulness

================================
Book of Mormon condemns Polygamy BOM Jacob:

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24-28

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

The text goes on to speak of the grief and heart ache this caused even in David's time and how doing likewise causes pain and a curse.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.


====================================

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

 

[BobRyan]

The ideal is faithfulness to one's spouse(s), regardless of what system happens to be in place.

A "few" have posted here "as if" the BoM had said "Polygamy is just fine as long as you are faithful to your wives".

By contrast the text of the book they are asking non-Mormons to read --- the Book of Mormon -- is not at all in harmony with that idea.

 

[Theway]

The argument that smashing the press should they happen to print an article about Smith's polygamy - "as if that is ok and normal" - is right out of communist third world hand-book.

in Christ,

Bob

What I find ironic is that Mormons used the duly set up democratic system to distroy a printing press, and everybody cried TREASON!
Yet when Mormon printing presses during the time were destroyed on at least three occations without appealing to any legal system at all, everybody turns a blind eye to it.

It seems nothing has changed in America.

 

[Theway]

So what is the 'ideal' in Mormonism, monogamy or polygamy?

Always monogamy.... Polygamy is the exception to the rule.

 

[smaneck]

However - my point in bringing up the Solomon Spalding source of the document is not the dishonesty and conn-man method this would consistently show for Smith - rather it is the point that because of that "source" - there is very little if any Mormon doctrine in that text. Rather it is what you would expect of an Anabaptist living in the late 1700's, early 1800's. And that fact is difficult to cover up with after-the-fact documents and stories.

Except without Spaulding's manuscript you are left with only hearsay evidence which I would consider inadmissible.

 

[smaneck]

I find that question "interesting" given those statements from the BoM.

Let's let the Mormons answer the question before you jump all over them.

 

[smaneck]

Always monogamy.... Polygamy is the exception to the rule.

Then we are in agreement. Would the rest of the Mormons here agree that monogamy is both spiritually and ethically preferable to polygamy and that polygamy should be reserved for exceptional situations? That is the position Muslims would take as well.
I would insist that only monogamy should be allowed in our present day because it insures both tranquility and justice in the family and without it there can be no equality between men and women. But I also realize that the equality of women and men is a modern possibility not attainable in antiquity.

 

[Theway]

Except without Spaulding's manuscript you are left with only hearsay evidence which I would consider inadmissible.

Actually Spaulding's manuscript has been found in 1884... Even then, Critics of the Church are now saying that it must be some other lost manuscript of Spaulding's that the BOM was copied from.

 

[smaneck]

The argument that smashing the press should they happen to print an article about Smith's polygamy - "as if that is ok and normal" - is right out of communist third world hand-book.

That's what we historians would call anachronistic thinking. Christianity has a long history of book-burning which has little do with communism or the Third World. Freedom of the press is a concept which grows out the Enlightenment, a decidedly anti-Christian movement.
I'm grateful that my own religion prohibits the burning of books (and by extension censorship) but I think we are unique in that respect.

 

[smaneck]

The ideal is faithfulness to one's spouse(s), regardless of what system happens to be in place.

The faithfulness of your husband becomes rather meaningless if you know he is allowed to take additional wives.

So far we've had two Mormons weigh in with different opinions on this issue. I'd like to here from the rest of you.

Ironhold, I'm presuming your 'ideal' does not extend to gay marriages?

 

[smaneck]

Actually Spaulding's manuscript has been found in 1884... Even then, Critics of the Church are now saying that it must be some other lost manuscript of Spaulding's that the BOM was copied from.

"A" manuscript by Spaulding has been found. Whether there is another one has not yet been determined. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there was second manuscript, if we discount hearsay as inadmissible.

I would like to hear from the critics as to whether their affidavits speak of Spaulding writing more than one manuscript?

 

[Theway]

Then we are in agreement. Would the rest of the Mormons here agree that monogamy is both spiritually and ethically preferable to polygamy and that polygamy should be reserved for exceptional situations? That is the position Muslims would take as well.
I would insist that only monogamy should be allowed in our present day because it insures both tranquility and justice in the family and without it there can be no equality between men and women. But I also realize that the equality of women and men is a modern possibility not attainable in antiquity.

That would be for God to determine.
However it looks like you are already coming up with reasons why God had better not do it though...
Not a position or argument I would want to be on the side of.

 

[Ironhold]

That's what we historians would call anachronistic thinking. Christianity has a long history of book-burning which has little do with communism or the Third World. Freedom of the press is a concept which grows out the Enlightenment, a decidedly anti-Christian movement.
I'm grateful that my own religion prohibits the burning of books (and by extension censorship) but I think we are unique in that respect.

It's been my personal experience that the more vocally a person criticizes the church over something, the less informed that they tend to be when it comes to history.

Although some of it could well be the legitimate result of simply relying upon whatever they were taught in school (American history textbooks tend to present a fairly sanitized view of history that dances around any historical controversy that it's not politically correct to discuss), all too often what I'm seeing is the result of people failing to show any independent study above and beyond what basics they received.

Ironhold, I'm presuming your 'ideal' does not extend to gay marriages?

The church holds that marriage is for man and woman, with the goal being the stable creation and rearing of children in a family environment.

As far as stability in plural marriages goes, we have that old statement by Sen. Boid Penrose: "I'd rather a polygamist who does not polyg than a monogamist who does not monog."

"A" manuscript by Spaulding has been found. Whether there is another one has not yet been determined. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there was second manuscript, if we discount hearsay as inadmissible.

I personally have never seen any arguments for the existence of a second Spaudling manuscript that go any deeper than "since the one found in Hawaii does not match the Book of Mormon, it must mean that another Spaudling manuscript has yet to be located."

 

[Theway]

"A" manuscript by Spaulding has been found. Whether there is another one has not yet been determined. But there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there was second manuscript, if we discount hearsay as inadmissible.

I would like to hear from the critics as to whether their affidavits speak of Spaulding writing more than one manuscript?

I love how Critics say that they can not believe the BOM to be true because they do not have the original writings to compare it to... Yet when we get an original writting which disproves them, they say we have to look to some other nonexistent original writing for the truth????
Hypocrisy is funny.

 

[RDKatz]

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.



According to the BoM polygamy is not faithfulness

================================
Book of Mormon condemns Polygamy BOM Jacob:

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24-28

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

The text goes on to speak of the grief and heart ache this caused even in David's time and how doing likewise causes pain and a curse.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.


====================================

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

Ya know, you are quite funny. You post these verses from Jacob and exclude the verse that refutes what you are trying to "prove". Then when this is pointed out to you you claim that the Prophet Joseph Smith inserted that verse to permit him to have multiple wives.

Now, I happen to have a photographic copy of the 1830 Book of Mormon ("Joseph Smith begins his work" by Wilford C Wood). When I go to Jacob 2 (it is a narrative not broken into verses), I find the same verbiage as the current version of the BOM (There are some spelling corrections in the modern version).

So, the Prophet could not have inserted the verse since the concept of multiple wives was revealed to the Prophet in 1831. The Revelation was finally recorded in 1843 (Section 132).

Further, if the Prophet had thoughts of multiple wives at that time, why did he permit the surrounding verses to be published?

 

[BobRyan]

Ya know, you are quite funny. You post these verses from Jacob and exclude the verse that refutes what you are trying to "prove". Then when this is pointed out to you you claim that the Prophet Joseph Smith inserted that verse to permit him to have multiple wives.

Now, I happen to have a photographic copy of the 1830 Book of Mormon ("Joseph Smith begins his work" by Wilford C Wood). When I go to Jacob 2 (it is a narrative not broken into verses), I find the same verbiage as the current version of the BOM (There are some spelling corrections in the modern version).

I would have been more impressed had you said "I happen to have a copy of Manuscript Found - Spalding's original work of fiction from which Smith copied and it also contains vs 30 unchanged" -

But as it is here is what we have IN the BoM about what is "abomination".

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.



According to the BoM polygamy is not faithfulness

================================
Book of Mormon condemns Polygamy BOM Jacob:

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Jacob 2:24-28

[23] But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
[27] Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
[28] For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
[29] Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

The text goes on to speak of the grief and heart ache this caused even in David's time and how doing likewise causes pain and a curse.


[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.


====================================

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
[25] Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
[26] Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.


=====================

And as we all know - you do not have a single text in the BoM saying "Polygamy is NOT an abomination any more or at least it wont be as soon as I end that rule". That is not in Jacob 2:30 and it is not in the entire book - and we both know it.

If you think you have one - please provide it.

Further, if the Prophet had thoughts of multiple wives at that time, why did he permit the surrounding verses to be published?

Smith was slamming the door on Polygamy - I agree with you on that point.

 

[BobRyan]

I love how Critics say that they can not believe the BOM to be true because they do not have the original writings to compare it to... Yet when we get an original writting which disproves them, they say we have to look to some other nonexistent original writing for the truth????
Hypocrisy is funny.

I love it when people claim that Smith is the author and the original writer of the BoM - when HE himself claims this is not true, that the book is a work of fiction... that he merely translated it. So to get to the "original writing" one would need the source from which HE ADMITS he was copying.

Not having that.... "imagine it does not matter"???

If Smith were claiming that HE is the prophet not those authors/writers/prophets of the BoM then the original would be HIS. HE never makes that claim! But since he makes the claim to be the "translator" and not the prophets in the book that actually write the various things in the BoM he is stuck not able to take the credit as one of the prophets in the book.

And there is no such thing is "translator of Isaiah is also a prophet because they translated it into English" - as we all know.