How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[AV1611VET]

Where did Jesus refer to both as real events?

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Modern biology cannot account for angelic life, because modern biology cannot and does not study supernatural life forms.

Just out of general flabbergastedness, how did people go about persuading you that angels existed in the first place? And secondly, having been persuaded (somehow), have you always just accepted it as true ever since?

 

[Loudmouth]

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Neither of those scriptures state that they are real historical events.

 

[AV1611VET]

Neither of those scriptures state that they are real historical events.

Their reality is understood.

Else every single verse would have to have your caveat.

 

[Loudmouth]

Their reality is understood.

Else every single verse would have to have your caveat.

Those are your words, not the words of the Bible.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You could say that bananas point to God, and it would not matter either.



From what I have observed in these forums, there is nothing that cannot be made to appear "cohesive" with the god of the Bible.

It comes down to how each view of the world in our cases most reliably explain and remain cohesive in the explanation of the reality we find ourselves in. With any worldview we have to look objectively within it to determine if it overall fits with reality. One piece of evidence that I have that you don't is God Himself.

Alleged design, You have yet to establish actual design.

Again, is actual design more cohesive with the reality we find ourselves in or do we have to put it off as an illusion? If there is something we recognize as appearing to be designed then we know what design looks like and the universe looks that way. Now this "appearance" is not due to a visual pattern or a pattern of any type it is the tested measured parameters of the universe.

Untestable and and unfalsifiable assertion. Why do you bother?

We know that intelligent beings give rise to intelligent beings and that is testable and it can be shown false if we can show intelligence arising from non-intelligent matter. On earth we only see intelligence begetting intelligence. It is more cohesive for our intelligence and reason being a product of an intelligent being rather than a process that is mindless, undirected and without any goals. Evolution alone does not explain intelligence arising from non-intelligent material. It does not explain how consciousness arising from mindless materials.

So what?

If you are more comfortable with a non-cohesive view of the world that is fine. Just understand that if you feel our intelligence and reason are products of a mindless process there is no reason to believe that reason is actual.

The argument from popularity is fallacious. Not one of you can show that your experience is not imagined.

What it shows is millions of people share common experience within the Christian worldview which reflects the reality we see in our universe.

So what?

I find it more satisfying to know that when I use my intelligence and reason it is accurate and actual intelligence and reason I am using rather that chemical reactions firing in the only way they can.

If you are continually unable to substantiate your claims, probability that they are false does increase greatly.

There is strong substantiation for the fine tuning in the genetic code and the universe as a whole. The fact that atheists and other such as you who share a view that the world is Godless must deny reason, intelligence, and design.

How circular. You use your belief that you know that a god exists to support your presupposition that a god exists.

1. You must assume that my knowing God is my imagination, yet you have no way to make that claim and show it is factual.
2. You use your presupposition that God doesn't exist to claim He doesn't exist.

I am sure that I do not accept circular logic as justification. YMMV.

If you view the world by evolution then you do.

That the political will and money exists to bring into existence a country that resembles that mentioned in your Bible makes the creation of Israel as useful as a prophecy fulfilment as me ordering a steak at a restaurant. Now, if the money and the will did not exist, and it still happened, then you might have something.

Are you claiming that the Jewish people and the nation of Israel is not those generations coming from the Biblical Jews?

So Israel has it wrong, as they are not christians. Should they not be Christian?

In the future they will accept Christian as their Messiah.

You know better than them, do you?

We have the original Hebrew test.

That the constants are constant is not in dispute. It is your perception of design that is in question here.

That the constants are constant is not the issue. I don't perceive the design. After testing and measurements it has come to show that fine tuning of those parameters allow life to exist on earth. We recognize what design "looks" like in that each parameter a great number of them must be as they are for life to exist and it appears it was planned that way. It show planning, direction and purpose.

It is you asserting your opinions as truth.

You are not asserting your opinion as truth?

You cannot show that our "will" is "free".

It is self evident. Except by you and others that like to claim it is an illusion.

After all these years here, and your opinions about design still do not get traction, you don't wonder why?

We discuss these things with people like you who deny reality.

Sure it does. It is a character in a book.

You have a rude awakening coming.

Then shoulder that burden of evidence, or admit you cannot.

There are many things in life that can't be shown conclusively.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Such a shame that people believe in order to be a christian you have to be a creationist, such a shame people think creationism and belief in God's creation are the same.

You don't think God created the universe?

 

[AV1611VET]

Neither of those scriptures state that they are real historical events.

Those are your words, not the words of the Bible.

Well, if you know the Bible so well, then you give me the verses.

And if you don't have any, then kindly refrain from denying those who do.

Anyone can sit and spout DOES NOT APPLY to a passage given them.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

You have a rude awakening coming.

Ah, the famous threat is wheeled out. Of course, you are in for a rude awakening too if the muslims turn out to be right, or any of the other religions come to that, but of course that will worry you precisely as much as your threat does us. It's odd though, given you are convalescing at the moment, one would of thought you would be feeling too woozy for that sort of nonsense.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, if you know the Bible so well, then you give me the verses.

There are no verses where Jesus states that Genesis must be interpretted literally.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Ah, the famous threat is wheeled out. Of course, you are in for a rude awakening too if the muslims turn out to be right, or any of the other religions come to that, but of course that will worry you precisely as much as your threat does us. It's odd though, given you are convalescing at the moment, one would of thought you would be feeling too woozy for that sort of nonsense.

Not too woozy, just pain. I wasn't speaking about hell or eternity in that sentence. Davian said that God was a Character in a book and it was in that context I was telling him he has a rude awakening.

 

[AV1611VET]

Where did Jesus refer to both as real events?

There are no verses where Jesus states that Genesis must be interpretted literally.

Why do I hear an Arab phone ringing?

 

[KWCrazy]

Just out of general flabbergastedness, how did people go about persuading you that angels existed in the first place? And secondly, having been persuaded (somehow), have you always just accepted it as true ever since?

My grandfather was an intelligent, well respected person who had no time whatever for religion until later in life. My grandmother was very religious and would spend every Sunday at church. One day he decided to go with her because there was a peace in her life that was missing in his. Eventually he found the Lord and was saved. It made a remarkable difference in him. From a hard drinking brawler to a gospel singing believer, his conversion was remarkable. Of the earlier man I knew only stories. Of the later man I had a very close relationship. His body deteriorated with age. Several heart issues and multiple strokes left him bedridden the last two years of his life. He spent it singing hymns and reminding my grandmother that if he hadn't met her he would have been destined for Hell. His faith and the faith of many others I knew taught me that God was real and that He can still do miracles in the lives of others.

My great grandfather was a spiritualist; a man given to studying and communicating with entities which men were instructed to avoid. I knew very little about him other than that he was said to have been able to communicate with the lost. Whether it was true I never knew.

My mother was a believer and my father was not. The struggles between good and evil in our family resulted in many confrontations. In their early teens my brothers experimented with seances, ouija boards and the occult. The doorways they opened with curiosity led to encounters that were both curious and terrifying. To say that our house became haunted would be less accurate than to say that there was demonic activity present. As the presence of the Holy Spirit can be felt, so too can the presence of evil. It does not reveal itself to non-believers for the simple reason that if you knew Heaven and Hell were real you would turn to the Lord for salvation, which doesn't benefit the creatures of hate who delight in the destruction of the damned. These things can't be demonstrated convincingly on a message board. It takes personal contact. You have to see the lives changed to understand that lives can change. You have to see the inner peace of the dying to understand that death is a mere passage to immortality. If you truly seek the answers you will find them. If you sit back and say "prove it" you'll never find them. Nobody dies for a lie when the truth could set them free and yet even today Christians die rather than to renounce their faith. Why do you think that it? Personally, I believe it's because they have a greater understanding and know that God is real. You can change your mind about what you think, but not about what you know.

 

[Loudmouth]

Why do I hear an Arab phone ringing?

Where is there a verse where Jesus says that Genesis must be interpretted literally?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why do I hear an Arab phone ringing?

Where is there a verse where Jesus says that Genesis must be interpretted literally?

Oh, ya -- that's why.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Not too woozy, just pain. I wasn't speaking about hell or eternity in that sentence. Davian said that God was a Character in a book and it was in that context I was telling him he has a rude awakening.

Fair enough. Sorry you are in pain. It is rather implied though when telling a non-believer that they'll get a rude awakening that bad things await, but as you are suffering we'll assume your comment was made without thinking.

 

[bhsmte]

Fair enough. Sorry you are in pain. It is rather implied though when telling a non-believer that they'll get a rude awakening that bad things await, but as you are suffering we'll assume your comment was made without thinking.

For some, what is the benefit of their faith belief, if it doesn't mean other people that disagree will meet a certain negative fate?

 

[KWCrazy]

For some, what is the benefit of their faith belief, if it doesn't mean other people that disagree will meet a certain negative fate?

Inner peace. A greater understanding. Eternal life with God.

 

[bhsmte]

Inner peace. A greater understanding. Eternal life with God.

And from my observations, with some on this board, it also means those who disagree are going to be in a world of hurt and they frequently have a need to point this out.

If your faith provides the above, good for you, but to point out how someone else will be negatively impacted because they disagree, reeks of insecurity to me.

 

[LoricaLady]

LoricaLady, tl dr, its just PRATTs anyway, but do you have any scientific background or education? Dont you think that if any of the points where true that the people who do would have noticed?

VirOptimus You have followed the pattern I described - as will all others who reply and believe evolution.
You never attempted to answer a single Q. Instead you changed the subject. In this
case you asked about my scientific credentials. Let's see the two major icons of evolution were Charles Lyell
and Charles Darwin. The first had a degree in law, the 2nd in theology. So, since academic credentials
in scientific fields are vital to you before you believe something, you might want to review your faith in what they had to say?

We must never get into the habit of thinking that only the "elite", in any field, can think for us. The rules of science and logic are not that hard to understand. The information is out there at our fingertips. Personally I feel quite confident to come to conclusions about the data using my own mind.