Are their modern examples of people speaking in tongues, healing, etc...?

[LivingWordUnity]

I guess the pope and Catholic Charismatic Renewal have a long way to go before most Catholics accept that the charisms are part of the Church. Several popes have supported the renewal. Pope Francis welcome the Renewal to Rome last year and will again at the 50th anniversary of the formal organization in 2017.

No one in this thread has condemned the gift of tongues. All that a couple of us have said is that it's not possible to judge whether or not when someone claims it that it's actually authentic. But that's not saying that it's not possible that it is authentic. The Church has allowed for the Charismatic movement, but the Church has never made it mandatory for everyone to join it.

"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts." -1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (RSV-CE)​

 

[mark46]

No one in this thread has condemned the gift of tongues. All that a couple of us have said is that it's no possible to judge whether or not when someone claims it that it's actually authentic. But that's not saying that it's not possible that it is authentic. The Church has allowed for the Charismatic movement, but the Church has never made it mandatory for everyone to join it.

"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts." -1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (RSV-CE)​

As I understand, for you, the only things that are mandatory are those that are proclaimed under the infallibility seal of the Chair of Peter, which has happened very few times in the history of the Church.

I do note that your cited quotation requires us to earnestly desire the higher gifts. As Saint Paul says elsewhere, tongues in the least of the gifts.

 

[pdudgeon]

nm

 

[Gwendolyn]

I am unclear about the gift of tongues.

The Scriptural gift that we see the Apostles using in Acts doesn't involve speaking unintelligible languages. It involves speaking in one's native language, but being heard by others in their native language. For example, Mark could have spoken Aramaic to a crowd, but they may have heard him speak in Greek, or Latin, or Hebrew... whichever language was their native language.

But when modern-day evangelicals or pentecostals speak about "tongues", they mean speaking gibberish, no language at all... but they call it "speaking in the tongues of angels".

It confuses me because the concept described in the Pentecost narrative is quite different.

 

[pdudgeon]

nm

 

[mark46]

I am unclear about the gift of tongues.

The Scriptural gift that we see the Apostles using in Acts doesn't involve speaking unintelligible languages. It involves speaking in one's native language, but being heard by others in their native language. For example, Mark could have spoken Aramaic to a crowd, but they may have heard him speak in Greek, or Latin, or Hebrew... whichever language was their native language.

But when modern-day evangelicals or pentecostals speak about "tongues", they mean speaking gibberish, no language at all... but they call it "speaking in the tongues of angels".

It confuses me because the concept described in the Pentecost narrative is quite different.

See attached

What is the “Gift of Tongues?” : Catholic Center For Charismatic Renewal

 

[St_Barnabus]

The Scriptural gift that we see the Apostles using in Acts doesn't involve speaking unintelligible languages. It involves speaking in one's native language, but being heard by others in their native language. For example, Mark could have spoken Aramaic to a crowd, but they may have heard him speak in Greek, or Latin, or Hebrew... whichever language was their native language.

But when modern-day evangelicals or pentecostals speak about "tongues", they mean speaking gibberish, no language at all... but they call it "speaking in the tongues of angels".

We make a big mistake if it is presumed that listening to another person pray in tongues will somehow bestow on us the ability to discern authenticity. This gift is between the person praying and God .. not those who pass judgment on their prayer tongue.

And yes, this type of speaking in tongues is a gift of prayer, whereas the account of apostolic tongues in Acts was a public manifestation of faith for the listeners, who were astounded by the experience of hearing others speak in their own language. Prayer "tongues" usually have no specific language and are totally a spiritual outpouring of personal prayer to God in a form that some call glossalalia. It is under full control of the "pray-er" whether or not to continue praying. In other words, God doesn't simply pop words into their heads that just happen to be a known language.

This is usually private prayer when "one does not know what to pray and lets the Spirit pray within them." (Rom 8:26) If praying in a tongue takes place in a public setting, and the message is given as a prophecy, then another is supposed to interpret the message.

 

[prodromos]

Elder Porphyrios (now Saint Porphyrios) had a French girl brought to him by some Greek friends, only one of whom spoke French. Initially the elder had two of her friends sit with her as they talked, with one of the Greek girls acting as interpreter. After a little he sent the bilingual girl outside and continued to speak with the French girl in Greek while she responded in French. Then he sent the other Greek girl outside and continued to speak with the Frenxh girl alone. When she came out after speaking with the elder for a while, she chastised her friends for telling her that the elder didn't speak French, because from the moment the bilingual girl left the room he had been speaking fluently in French, however the other Greek girl was witness to the fact that the elder had in fact been speaking Greek the whole time. Many people have also been healed of numerous infirmities by the elder.

 

[prodromos]

This is usually private prayer when "one does not know what to pray and lets the Spirit pray within them." (Rom 8:26).

One gets the impression that Pentecostals rarely have any idea what to pray.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Elder Porphyrios (now Saint Porphyrios) had a French girl brought to him by some Greek friends, only one of whom spoke French. Initially the elder had two of her friends sit with her as they talked, with one of the Greek girls acting as interpreter. After a little he sent the bilingual girl outside and continued to speak with the French girl in Greek while she responded in French. Then he sent the other Greek girl outside and continued to speak with the Frenxh girl alone. When she came out after speaking with the elder for a while, she chastised her friends for telling her that the elder didn't speak French, because from the moment the bilingual girl left the room he had been speaking fluently in French, however the other Greek girl was witness to the fact that the elder had in fact been speaking Greek the whole time. Many people have also been healed of numerous infirmities by the elder.

The modern instances of tongues I have read about relayed stories like this, and, oddly enough, the stories were all about Orthodox people.

 

[Rhamiel]

1 Corinthians 13:1

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

this is sometimes used as reference to speaking in tongues

I do not really debate for or against this belief
it just does not effect me or those I deal with

 

[St_Barnabus]

1 Corinthians 13:1

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

this is sometimes used as reference to speaking in tongues

It should be the criteria for exercising ALL of the gifts, and is a good reminder that love and God's glory should be the standard that underlies everything we do. I especially love the doxology prayer that we pray at Mass:
"Through HIM and with HIM and IN HIM, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, forever and ever. Amen."

 

[St_Barnabus]

One gets the impression that Pentecostals rarely have any idea what to pray.

I suppose they find it to be so fruitful that they neglect using their own minds in prayer.
There needs to be a balance. St. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:2-4:
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves.

He reminds us of this balance a little later, "14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding."

There are times when praying with the mind (understanding) is just as essential as praying in the spirit. We do this in our liturgical prayers and many other prayers of devotion, such as the rosary.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I am unclear about the gift of tongues.

The Scriptural gift that we see the Apostles using in Acts doesn't involve speaking unintelligible languages. It involves speaking in one's native language, but being heard by others in their native language. For example, Mark could have spoken Aramaic to a crowd, but they may have heard him speak in Greek, or Latin, or Hebrew... whichever language was their native language.

But when modern-day evangelicals or pentecostals speak about "tongues", they mean speaking gibberish, no language at all... but they call it "speaking in the tongues of angels".

It confuses me because the concept described in the Pentecost narrative is quite different.

I think there is one passing mention about the tongues of angels in one of the letters that St. Paul wrote. But St. Paul himself says in other places that other things are more important. So I think that Pentecostals and charismatics have been putting way too much emphasis on trying to speak in angelic tongues. That's not to say that it's not possible, but it's way over-emphasized by them.

 

[pdudgeon]

nm

 

[frenchdefense]

Are their modern examples of people speaking in tongues, healing, etc...?


Have you never heard Sarah Palin speak ?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I spoke in tongues once when I first became a Christian, and I experience stigmata in times of prayer pretty much daily.

 

[frenchdefense]

I experience stigmata in times of prayer pretty much daily.

Visible or invisible ?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Visible or invisible ?

Just crucifixion wounds in my hands, feet, and side. I've never seen anything. I've noticed it primarily happens when I pray the Jesus Prayer. I never knew this was a thing or that it had a term until a few months ago.

 

[Wryetui]

Just crucifixion wounds in my hands, feet, and side. I've never seen anything. I've noticed it primarily happens when I pray the Jesus Prayer. I never knew this was a thing or that it had a term until a few months ago.

Really?

Well, while I believe healing through the grace of God can happen (hundreds of testimonies of people going to monasteries and churches, to kiss Saint's relics or just by praying, even major deformities were healed) I doubt about the speaking in tongues. What pentecostals believe they are speaking in are just nonsense to me, the gift of speaking in tongues on the Bible was given to the apostles so they can speak in real tongues, like greek or latin so they can spread the Gospel to all the nations, everything God does, every miracle is useful, I don't see how useful is the "gift" of "speaking in tongues" pentecostals have now.