question about abortion

[Resha Caner]

[quote="quatona";67281100]No, but unfortunately the question wasn´t specifying the age any further.[/quote]

Good.

[quote="quatona";67281100]On another note, I don´t think that maturity and age are necessarily the same.[/quote]

True, but it is a very important factor.

 

[quatona]

True, but it is a very important factor.

Can you quantify it in a way that would make it usable for figuring it in, for purposes of the question at hand?

 

[KitKatMatt]

Obviously. I guess I have my answer about age, but I disagree.



Does that go for all decisions of your 13-yr-old daughter? Where she'll live? If she goes to school or not? What substances she takes into her body? Whether to drive drunk or while texting? etc. etc.

Since Skaloop brought it up, should we start discussing the psychology of teenagers?

We're not discussing all of those other things. We're discussing what we'd do as hypothetical parents to a hypothetical girl who was impregnated by rape.

If you want to talk about those things on another thread apart from this one, I'd have something to say. I'm not going to argue with you here.

 

[Resha Caner]

Can you quantify it in a way that would make it usable for figuring it in, for purposes of the question at hand?

Quantify it? No ... though there might be some statistical studies ... I'd have to research it. Are you going to reject psychology on the grounds that it can't be quantified?

If that's going to be your criteria for decision making, I'll keep that in mind for future discussions.

 

[Resha Caner]

We're not discussing all of those other things. We're discussing what we'd do as hypothetical parents to a hypothetical girl who was impregnated by rape.

Everything I've mentioned is a factor in the decision, and therefore a legitimate part of the discussion.

If you want to talk about those things on another thread apart from this one, I'd have something to say. I'm not going to argue with you here.

OK.

 

[quatona]

Quantify it? No ... though there might be some statistical studies ... I'd have to research it. Are you going to reject psychology on the grounds that it can't be quantified?

Yes, I would reject it for those purposes you bring it up - simply with reference to the fact that there´s disagreement about this in all age-segments.

If that's going to be your criteria for decision making, I'll keep that in mind for future discussions.

If what is going to be my criteria for decision making?
I haven´t given a criteria. You were the one to give the criteria "age".

 

[Resha Caner]

[quote="quatona";67281180]If what is going to be my criteria for decision making?
I haven´t given a criteria. You were the one to give the criteria "age".[/quote]

You did. You asked me if I could quantify age as a factor in decision making. So I am asking if quantification is your general criteria or if it only applies to this discussion.

[quote="quatona";67281180]Yes, I would reject it for those purposes you bring it up - simply with reference to the fact that there´s disagreement about this in all age-segments.[/quote]

Disagreement about what? Abortion or age as a factor in decision making?

 

[Resha Caner]

FYI, I did a quick Google on "age as a factor in decision making". It came up with a long list of peer-reviewed papers. One was this:

http://www.ijpsy.com/volumen7/num3/176/factors-that-affect-decision-making-gender-EN.pdf

Obviously I haven't had time to absorb much of anything out of a long list of papers on the subject, but it does appear to be saying that age influences decision making.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Everything I've mentioned is a factor in the decision, and therefore a legitimate part of the discussion.

OK.

Simply because I'm curious:

What would have been your reaction if I said "I'd make her abort"?

What would have been your reaction if I said "I'd make her carry out the pregnancy"?

Would you have jumped all over me for either answer like you did for "I'd let her make her own choice"?

This goes with quatona's excellent point that there are adults that may choose either way.

 

[Resha Caner]

Simply because I'm curious:

I thought you didn't want to discuss this with me anymore.

What would have been your reaction if I said "I'd make her abort"?

What would have been your reaction if I said "I'd make her carry out the pregnancy"?

I don't like your phrasing either way. If you advised her to abort I would disagree. If you advised her to carry to term, I would agree.

Honestly I think most people just don't want to get involved. They don't want the responsibility. So, "She has the choice" sounds like a nice answer that absolves one of any responsibility. But once the question is posed to you, there is no way to escape at least some responsibility for the outcome - no matter how you answer.

 

[quatona]

You did. You asked me if I could quantify age as a factor in decision making. So I am asking if quantification is your general criteria or if it only applies to this discussion.

I´m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just misunderstood me.
I do think that once we want to establish something a usable criteria for a given decision we would need it to be quantifiable.
You were the one talking about the difference between the question concerning a 13yo and a 18yo. And you didn´t even mention the possible ages of the parent.
Now, since you were the one dealing with numbers, I would expect you to get specific.
I just gave some general aspects about how I´d go about talking to a person.
So don´t push me around with the criteria you are appealing to.

Disagreement about what? Abortion or age as a factor in decision making?

Disagreement about abortion.

 

[KitKatMatt]

I thought you didn't want to discuss this with me anymore.



I don't like your phrasing either way. If you advised her to abort I would disagree. If you advised her to carry to term, I would agree.

Honestly I think most people just don't want to get involved. They don't want the responsibility. So, "She has the choice" sounds like a nice answer that absolves one of any responsibility. But once the question is posed to you, there is no way to escape at least some responsibility for the outcome - no matter how you answer.

I didn't want to argue about other life choices that aren't related to the choice in the topic. Like driving while drunk or texting, or where a child wants to live.

The reason I'd want her to choose, is because it's not my body or my baby. I was also not the one who was raped and conceived from that rape. It's not because it's a hard decision.

If I were in that situation (it was me instead of a daughter), I would want to abort. No question. I have my reasons.

If you were my daughter, how would you feel if I forced you to get an abortion if you had conceived via rape? Probably the same way I'd feel if I were the raped daughter, and my mother forced me to carry the pregnancy and have the baby, whether given up for adoption or not (completely horrified, emotionally traumatized, hate and distrust my mother for forcing my hand in such a tremendous decision).

So that's why I answered the way I did.

 

[Resha Caner]

[quote="quatona";67281484]Disagreement about abortion.[/quote]

No doubt. Is that a reason to give up?

[quote="quatona";67281484]Now, since you were the one dealing with numbers, I would expect you to get specific.[/quote]

I don't believe that had I remained vague, you would not have pushed me to get more specific.

Further, I did not put this forward as my criteria. I asked if you would accept age as a factor in decision making. I took you to say you did. If I'm wrong, and you're rejecting age as a factor, then this becomes a different discussion.

Regardless, I did give you a quick link. If we agree to continue discussing this, and you continue to push me for more detail, then we'll see how it goes.

 

[quatona]

Obviously I haven't had time to absorb much of anything out of a long list of papers on the subject, but it does appear to be saying that age influences decision making.

Of course, age influences decision making. That´s not the issue, though. The question would be: "Do old people make better decisions than young ones?" (and the problem would be: you can´t simply make a statistic involving a valuing term such as "good/better").

I´m 57. I have never had an abortion, and even less did I have an abortion as a teenager. I have never been personally involved in the question whether a female partner (teenage or other age) of mine should have an abortion or not. In this issue I have no life experience over a teenager. (And even if I had, my interpretation would be specific to my situation and mind set).
Thus, all I could offer would be my belief system (and in my first response I talked about this very problem - which of course you ignored in favour of starting to quibble over numbers).
In the beginning you talked about information. Giving information and trying to pass on my belief system are two entirely different things.

 

[Resha Caner]

I didn't want to argue about other life choices that aren't related to the choice in the topic. Like driving while drunk or texting, or where a child wants to live.

But it's relevant. I wanted to know if you see this as a special case where a 13-yr-old is ready to make such a decision or if you think 13-yr-olds are qualified to make all important decisions.

If I were in that situation (it was me instead of a daughter), I would want to abort. No question. I have my reasons.

Too bad.

If you were my daughter, how would you feel if I forced you to get an abortion if you had conceived via rape? Probably the same way I'd feel if I were the raped daughter, and my mother forced me to carry the pregnancy and have the baby, whether given up for adoption or not (completely horrified, emotionally traumatized, hate and distrust my mother for forcing my hand in such a tremendous decision).

The way you phrase this implies it would be handled without sensitivity, and I never implied such a thing. Advising a girl to carry to term - even after a rape - does not automatically mean insensitivity to the issue.

Further, this is not the type of thing where you wait until it happens to address it. In order to handle such a situation so that your daughter trusts your advice requires a lifelong close relationship.

Yeah, if you've never been involved in your daughter's life ... if you haven't been guiding her decisions from birth ... you probably don't have a right to advise her to carry to term. You're not a parent in that case. You were just a genetic donator.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Never mind. You want to keep bringing up stuff not related to this specific topic, so this is going nowhere.

 

[Resha Caner]

[quote="quatona";67281664]Of course, age influences decision making. That´s not the issue, though. The question would be: "Do old people make better decisions than young ones?" (and the problem would be: you can´t simply make a statistic involving a valuing term such as "good/better").

I´m 57. I have never had an abortion, and even less did I have an abortion as a teenager. I have never been personally involved in the question whether a female partner (teenage or other age) of mine should have an abortion or not. In this issue I have no life experience over a teenager. (And even if I had, my interpretation would be specific to my situation and mind set).
Thus, all I could offer would be my belief system (and in my first response I talked about this very problem - which of course you ignored in favour of starting to quibble over numbers).
In the beginning you talked about information. Giving information and trying to pass on my belief system are two entirely different things.[/quote]

I didn't ignore your answer. If you look back you'll see I said your answer was good. For the most part I agree with everything you just said here.

The only part I disagreed with was your step #3. It came across as if you would leave her the decision in all cases, and so I asked you to clarify. It sounds as if you are saying yes, you would leave the decision to her in all cases. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you'll clarify. If that is your answer, I would disagree.

 

[Resha Caner]

Never mind. You want to keep bringing up stuff not related to this specific topic, so this is going nowhere.

If you want to explain to me why it's irrelevant, I'll listen. I'm just not prepared to take your comment as is. I think the additional factors I raised are relevant. Much goes into such a decision.

 

[quatona]

No doubt. Is that a reason to give up?

No, I didn´t say it was a reason "to give up". I don´t even know what you mean: "Give up what?"
Do you immediately forget the context in which things have been said, or is this a confusion strategy of yours?
Here´s the point again:
If old age would be a criteria for making the right decision about abortion, we should see a growing consent in this question with growing age.
If people of old age are as divided in this question as young persons are, there is no point whatsoever in appealing to the wisdom of age when it comes to this question.

I don't believe that had I remained vague, you would not have pushed me to get more specific.

I´m not going to start discussing your beliefs about me, sorry.

Further, I did not put this forward as my criteria.

You brought age up in a response to a post of mine in which I hadn´t even mentioned age.
So it has demonstrably not been a criteria that played any part in my argument. Now, if you claim that even though you brought it up, you didn´t mean to put it forward as your criteria, I am wondering on whose behalf you responded to me.

I asked if you would accept age as a factor in decision making. I took you to say you did.

I would be interested to learn which part of my response you interpreted that way. Really.

If I'm wrong, and you're rejecting age as a factor, then this becomes a different discussion.

You were the one to bring up age, I was the one to respond that I don´t it a useable criterium.
Now you can start discussing my actual position.

Regardless, I did give you a quick link. If we agree to continue discussing this, and you continue to push me for more detail, then we'll see how it goes.

I´m not intending to push you anywhere. I merely responded to the OP, upon which you ignored all points I had made, and approached me with a question that had nothing to do with what I had said, and instead you introduced your own criterium (or that of the mouse in your pocket, who knows).
Upon which I told you that I have no idea how to figure this criterium in in a useable way.
If you wish to share your method for figuring this criterium in in a useable way, you are free to do so, and I am all ears.
If, like me, you don´t have such a method, I will consider your interception not helpful.

Anyway, since you apparently want to talk about a 13yo, the most important points haven´t even been mentioned:
Most likely, my 13yo daughter hasn´t even finished school, doesn´t have a job, doesn´t have her own home - thus isn´t in the condition to own up to the (assumed) decision to raise a child. Thus, the consequences are going to be upon me - and that´s why it wouldn´t be about advising or recommending her. It would be about making a decision for myself: Do I want to be responsible for this child?

 

[quatona]

The only part I disagreed with was your step #3. It came across as if you would leave her the decision in all cases, and so I asked you to clarify. It sounds as if you are saying yes, you would leave the decision to her in all cases. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sure you'll clarify. If that is your answer, I would disagree.

In my initial response I didn´t have a 13yo in my mind. I hope the last paragraph of my last post helps answering your question: in this case I wouldn´t feel that the issue is advising her, but first of all to show her all the aspects of the scenario (with emphasis on the part how it possibly affects me). Once we have been going through this, I would continue the conversation by applying the very paradigms I have outlined in my first response. Possibly, I would even ask her to advice me. Which doesn´t mean I would act upon her advice.