Same Ol' Same Ol'?

[ThatTrueLight]

What were the unbelieving Jews broken off of in Romans chapter 11?

It cannot be the Church, because they were never a part of it.

Paul is speaking of Israel being cut off from Christ and how THAT has resulted in the blessings to GENTILES.. and how that God is able to graft them back in again.. and of course He shall when He comes and turns ungodliness from Jacob.

I mean, only if you actually believe the word of God of course.

 

[Interplanner]

ThatTrueLight,
when you say 'word of God' in your last line, you mean what you've been led to think it is saying. I think the Isaiah quotes are being used in the historical sense by Paul; they have come to pass. The Redeemer came, sin is taken away (the debt is), and the new covenant is in place.

 

[BABerean2]

Paul is speaking of Israel being cut off from Christ and how THAT has resulted in the blessings to GENTILES.. and how that God is able to graft them back in again.. and of course He shall when He comes and turns ungodliness from Jacob.

I mean, only if you actually believe the word of God of course.

You mean your version of the word of God of course, which comes from a manmade doctrine that has an ism on the end of it.

The problem with your version is that the Apostle Paul begins Romans chapter 11 by talking about the remnant of Israel.


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (These 7,000 were of faithful Israel.)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Only unbelieving Israel were the branches broken off, if you actually believe the Word of God, of course.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

You mean your version of the word of God of course, which comes from a manmade doctrine that has an ism on the end of it.

Right, it actually doesn't mean what it says and yet I will bet that you refuse to actually explain what it does mean.

I see it all the time.. NOPE that's not what it actually means and when asked what it DOES actually mean, nothing but silence.

Give it a rest, you know perfectly well that Romans 11 means exactly what it says.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

So tell everyone here what this means;

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They're enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved according to God's election.

So there it is, have at it and explain how this actually doesn't mean what it says.

 

[BABerean2]

So tell everyone here what this means;

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They're enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved according to God's election.

So there it is, have at it and explain how this actually doesn't mean what it says.

Ignoring the fact that the Apostle Paul was speaking of Israel at the beginning of Romans chapter 11 will not make your doctrine work.

Willful blindness is not honestly considering the truth of God's Word.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


.......................................................................................

Part of the descendants of Jacob are blind concerning the identity of Christ as their Messiah. They are the branches broken off of faithful Israel, because they have rejected Christ. They can be grafted back in by accepting Christ.

The election are those known before the foundation of the world by the Father, who would accept Christ as their Messiah. They like the Apostle Paul, are the cultivated Olive tree of faithful Israel, just like those who did not bow the knee to Baal during the time of Elijah.

This process will continue until Christ returns and the last gentile is grafted into the Olive tree of faithful Israel.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Ignoring the fact that the Apostle Paul was speaking of Israel at the beginning of Romans chapter 11 will not make your doctrine work.

Willful blindness is not honestly considering the truth of God's Word.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


.......................................................................................

Part of the descendants of Jacob are blind concerning the identity of Christ as their Messiah. They are the branches broken off of faithful Israel, because they have rejected Christ. They can be grafted back in by accepting Christ.

The election are those known before the foundation of the world by the Father, who would accept Christ as their Messiah. They like the Apostle Paul, are the cultivated Olive tree of faithful Israel, just like those who did not bow the knee to Baal during the time of Elijah.

This process will continue until Christ returns and the last gentile is grafted into the Olive tree of faithful Israel.

Told ya, not a line about Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in or how that they're enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved in God's election.

Thanks for perfectly proving my point once again.

It happens EVERY TIME.

Anything but what it says in plain English.

And I'm sure you know exactly what you're talking about when you accuse others of willful blindness.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

For ANYONE here.. just ask them again and again what this means.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

They can't deal with it.

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 46:

Originally Posted by Interplanner:

Paul says several times that the elect or the remnant was never exactly the same as the nation or descendancy of Israel in the OT.

Could you quote the scripture you are thinking of here?

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

 

[Bible2]

ThatTrueLight said in post 54:

It ignores the simple mystery in Romans pertaining to Israel and how that they are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 51:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

John 2:19,21 was fulfilled at Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Luke 24:36).

The ultimate temple will be the Trinity itself on the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which contains no temple building (Revelation 21:22). Jesus' individual human body is already a temple of God (John 2:21), and at the time of his first coming, his body-temple coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Matthew 23:21). And his body-temple also coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). There is now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), and the myriad different temples of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthian 6:19). There will also be a 3rd, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and also a 4th earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21), which won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

random person said in post 51:

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:21

John 4:21-24 wasn't contradicting that Christians could worship God in spirit and truth in the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, even after Jesus' sacrificial death for our sins and his resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). Instead, John 4:21-24 meant that under the New Covenant, up until Jesus' 2nd coming, people wouldn't be required to go to a temple building in Jerusalem to worship God like they had been required to do at least 3 times a year under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Deuteronomy 16:16; 2 Chronicles 8:12-16). Only after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3-4), during his millennial reign (Zechariah 14:9, Revelation 20:4-6), will people be required to go once a year to worship the returned Jesus in a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21).

random person said in post 51:

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36

John 18:36 means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Danoh]

ThatTrueLight,
when you say 'word of God' in your last line, you mean what you've been led to think it is saying. I think the Isaiah quotes are being used in the historical sense by Paul; they have come to pass. The Redeemer came, sin is taken away (the debt is), and the new covenant is in place.

Thats rich - you project your belief that he has been taught to think what he does... in the same breath that you project what you have been taught to think.

I find this misfire of yours a constant in all who mindread their one size fits all notions of Darby onto anyone who even remotely appears to "have been taught..."

You and yours are simply unable to divorce yourselves from bias.

Can't say I blame you... years down a wrong path is bound to blind anyone against the reality before their very eyes.

One individual even believes that being a Berean too means reading "books about" written by writers of "books about" who got their information from prior "books about."

That's the formula, isn't - "get it" from "books about" and then, on the one hand, project their "materials" into "what Scripture is really talking about."

On the other hand, project onto anyone who disagrees with your books based "wisdom" - "well, that's what you were led to think..."

And you don't even see yourselves doing that...

 

[Danoh]

No, preterism honors all of Christ's and the apostle's time statements and does not distort them, conform them, and deny them in their pursuit of futurism, premillennialism, and dispensationalism.

Here is a bible search on the word "mystery":

Mystery (31 Occurrences)
Mark 4:11 He said to them, "To you is given the mystery of the Kingdom of God, but to those who are outside, all things are done in parables,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS)

Luke 18:34 Nothing of this did they understand. The words were a mystery to them, nor could they see what He meant.
(WEY)

Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because it isn't of faith; and whatever is not of faith is sin. (24) Now to him who is able to establish you according to my Good News and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret through long ages, (25) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations; (26) to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.
(WEB)

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS)

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:3 how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:4 by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 5:32 This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Ephesians 6:19 on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in opening my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the Good News,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints, Paul's Second Letter to the Thessalonians
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 1:27 to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 2:2 that their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love, and gaining all riches of the full assurance of understanding, that they may know the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Colossians 4:3 praying together for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds;
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV)

1 Timothy 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV)

1 Timothy 3:16 Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory.
(WEB KJV WEY ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 1:20 the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven assemblies. The seven lampstands are seven assemblies.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead a name was written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)

Revelation 17:7 The angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
(WEB KJV ASV DBY WBS NAS RSV NIV)


Mystery (31 Occurrences)

There you have - your erroneous habit of one size [in this case; one label is one and the same intended sense throughout and therefore] fits all.

 

[Danoh]

For ANYONE here.. just ask them again and again what this means.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

They can't deal with it.

What can one expect from someone who asserts "they were never a part of" and then "they were broken off of..." and so on?

I mean, just how would one break off something that was never a part of a thing?

This is what they believe is logic.

Good luck getting through to that kind of "belief."

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I'd expect atheists or anyone but a believer to criticize the simple truth of the word of God, and try to get other believers to actually think that it doesn't mean what it says.

That's just par for the course on this board lately.

I referenced Romans 11 in another thread and another professing believer told me that it was nauseating.

The word of God nauseating.

For the record, those who try to tell me that the word of God doesn't mean what it says makes me nauseous.

So, we're even.

 

[BABerean2]

Told ya, not a line about Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in or how that they're enemies as concerning the gospel and beloved in God's election.

Thanks for perfectly proving my point once again.

It happens EVERY TIME.

Anything but what it says in plain English.

And I'm sure you know exactly what you're talking about when you accuse others of willful blindness.

I must say that you have a unique debate strategy.

When another poster gives you a direct answer that does not agree with your doctrine, you just pretend they did not give you an answer.

You did that when I showed you that the Apostle Paul began Romans 11 speaking about Israel and when I just gave an answer about blindness until the fullness of the gentiles, you did the same thing.

Then you claim victory in your viewpoint.

Interesting strategy.

Even if the score is 12 points on your side and 30 points for the other team, you still won.

It seems, you may have difficulty dealing with reality.



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I must say that you have a unique debate strategy.

When another poster gives you a direct answer that does not agree with your doctrine, you just pretend they did not give you an answer.

You did that when I showed you that the Apostle Paul began Romans 11 speaking about Israel and when I just gave an answer about blindness until the fullness of the gentiles, you did the same thing.

Then you claim victory in your viewpoint.

Interesting strategy.

Even if the score is 12 points on your side and 30 points for the other team, you still won.

It seems, you may have difficulty dealing with reality.



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That's not what I asked. I simply asked what this means.

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That's all, and yes, I understand this is silly and a waste of time when you can't explain a simple thing like that and pretend that your deflection is some valid confirmation of yourself at the same time.

I'm certain everyone can see that for what it is.

One more try..

No, just kiddin

 

[Interplanner]

ThatTrueLight
It may seem like calling 12-30 a victory, but he may be calling 12-0 a victory and you may not see what he's saying.

The thing I notice about the opening paragraph of Rom 11 is the continuation that not all Israel is the Israel that he's now referring to. I think all of us know that a certain times in Rom 9-11 he still means the nation, but he has introduced a new one and that new one exists by faith, as 9:24 shows. How does he resolve the lack of faith on the part of the nation? (This is a question he's been aware of--in Romans--since 3:3). By explaining the remnant. AKA, the elect. AKA "us" who exist by faith.

I'm not sure you see that.

Then there are the questions of the end of Rom 11.
1, for the 100th time here, let us remind ourselves that he's referring to hardness, not blindness

2, 'until the fullness of the Gentiles' does not guarantee a resumption of activity with Israel the nation. In the setting of Rom 9-11, he has pointed out that all through Israel's history, only the elect or remnant or those who had faith were the true Israel. Why should he change that now? He's referring to those who have faith, in the same sense that the olive trees images were resolved. He is not partial to any of them, only to having faith. Those branches that have faith stand; the others do not.

3, the covenant 'with the house of Israel.' This is the new covenant in which Christ is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. This feature of Christ is celebrated in many of Paul's letters for all those who have faith no matter class, race, gender, etc. The new covenant is already in effect, or else we have to toss 2 Cor 3-5 and Hebrews.

4, Saved. Many people read this as "Judaism reinstituted in modern times and in the historic place." But Paul is quoting Isaiah historically; it has already come into being. The parallel to 'saved' right in this passage is the removal of the debt of sin (he's not saying sin's stain does not exist).

5, Closure. Above all, we must keep reading the passage to gain the true or full picture. There is closure to God working with different ethnos in different ways. There is no more of that (although, truly, I don't think there ever was.) v30 shows that all mankind is bound in sin, so that all may recieve the one mercy from the one channel: the Gospel.

6, Apply. Keep reading. The mercies of 12:1 are not some separate "practical" Christian teaching from 11:30. It's the same. If there was some major need or reason for things to happen in modern Israel to reinstitute Judaism, surely it would have been mentioned by now.

7, "All." If just one snapshot of modern Israel is "saved" in the re-installed Judaism sense, what about all the rest down through time? How anyway can all the disbelief be explained or saved way, way after they have died and gone on to judgement (3:3 as one example)?

8, "In this way..." This expression (kai houtos) is referring to the way or method of being saved. It's by faith and it is while most of Israel is hard. As has always been the case, it seems. It is not referring to chronology (lots of Gentiles--and no Jews--will be saved and then it will all turnabout, and all Jews will be saved).

9, there is no practical reason why modern secular Israel should not exist. It is way ahead, civically, of shari'a law found through out the geo-zone. But it is not a fulfilled prophecy in the NT sense in light of definitions given by the Gospel and the new covenant. Even though the overwhelming destruction of Jerusalem occurred in AD 70 for the reasons given in Mt 24, Lk 21, etc, that business is over with. As Rom 11:30 said all business with ethnos is over with. Everything is transacted through the Gospel event and mercy in it.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

ThatTrueLight

2, 'until the fullness of the Gentiles' does not guarantee a resumption of activity with Israel the nation.

I'd like to reply to this because this does address the simple question posed to Berean.

And the fulness of the Gentiles coming in most certainly results in the END of Israel's blindness in part.

That is what the word UNTIL means.

Then what does Paul say.. Paul THEN speaks of the Deliverer coming as it is written in Isaiah, to turn ungodliness from JACOB.

Jacob is Israel.

The church is not from the twelve tribes of Jacob, it is from every tribe nation and tongue, including Jacob's twelve sons.

The nation of Israel is the context as GENTILES is the opposite context. Gentiles are not Israelites, that's why they're called Gentiles.

We also know another thing about the Gentiles..

That Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and that shall be when Christ comes and says to those on His right hand, Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Where do you think the King of Kings is coming to?

 

[Interplanner]

but is the meaning "until" or "for the duration"? Look up other times when it is used. The trampling expression just means for as long as the age of the nations lasts, which, by the way, is a correct name from Judaism, although they thought it meant that the nations would come to the geographic location and worship, instead of the worldwide meaning Christ explains in Jn 4 etc.

As for where he is returning to, I don't know of anything in 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, Rom 2, I Cor 15 (all mention the 2nd coming in non-symbolic didactic passages) that "need" to have modern Jerusalem in place. If you know what Gal 3-4 is saying about Judaism, you know there is no need for anything to resume that approximates a 2nd installment of Judaism, etc.

That's why the basic axiom of NT eschatology stands: Mt24A (and parallels) are about 1st century Judea; after that it is worldwide and (we now know) distant future.