The Land Promises Have Ended, the Abrahamic Covenant Genesis 17

[BABerean2]

Note that verses like Joshua 21:43 don't require that the promise of the land of Canaan is only typological in the past, instead of it being literal and valid not only in the past, but also in our present and in our future. For the promise is that the literal Canaan will be "an everlasting possession" (Genesis 17:8).

The word "everlasting" can only refer to the eternal state of forever.

Nothing in this fallen world lasts forever, not even the world.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


The promise will be fulfilled in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
I look forward to seeing Abraham and Joshua there.

 

[Interplanner]

There are several examples of what BAB is saying. Ie, several examples of "everlasting" simply meaning lasting many generations, but not eternal in the Christian sense.

This in itself relegates a lot of prophecy to near-future (from the time written), not to our times many millenia later.

 

[riverrat]

There are several examples of what BAB is saying. Ie, several examples of "everlasting" simply meaning lasting many generations, but not eternal in the Christian sense.

This in itself relegates a lot of prophecy to near-future (from the time written), not to our times many millenia later.

Please provide these examples.

 

[random person]

Ezekiel prophecies are not vainly spoken...all will be fulfilled in due time

The Ezekiel prophecies were already fulfilled. Ezekiel 39:29 places the prophecies at the time when God poured out his Spirit upon Israel.

When did God pour out his Spirit upon Israel? On the Day of Pentecost!

Acts chapter 2 fulfilled many prophecies including Joel 2:28-32:



28
And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:

29
and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.



31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered:
for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
as the Lord hath said,
and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

And more specifically, Acts 2:8-11 was a direct fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11-12:




11
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the Lord shall set his hand again
the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left,
from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros,
and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar,
and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.

Here is the passage in Acts 2:

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


And please note that both the prophecies of Joel and Isaiah promise to save ONLY a remnant of Israel, the same remnant spoken of in Romans 11!

Gog and Magog is the persecuting Jews of the 1st century found throughout Asia Minor where they were predominant, these are labelled the Synagogue of Satan in Revelation. They were already gathered in the valley of Jehoshaphat and massacred by the Romans (whom acting as angels or messengers - malak - or the people of the Prince of God's flaming vengeance).

 

[random person]

Note that verses like Joshua 21:43 don't require that the promise of the land of Canaan is only typological in the past, instead of it being literal and valid not only in the past, but also in our present and in our future. For the promise is that the literal Canaan will be "an everlasting possession" (Genesis 17:8).

Everlasting possession is incorrect because once the New Covenant comes in, because circumcision is no longer valid and additionally Gentiles are heirs of Abraham now. The everlasting possession thus becomes something larger and much more eternal. The everlasting possession is now heaven itself where the kingdom of God truly resides. Read Hebrews 11 & 12, particularly these passages Hebrews 11:13-16,39-40 & 12:18-28. Dig out your Bible and read these passages.

Heaven has transcended simple borders in the land of Palestine. The everlasting possession has transformed into heaven itself. Because no man could ascend up to heaven until Jesus first descended from heaven. No one could enter heaven prior to Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension back into heaven to sit upon the Throne. Jesus put it best:

My kingdom is not of this world

What do you not understand about Jesus' actions in John 6:15?

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews wanted Jesus to be an earthly king but Jesus did not want to be an earthly king. Because his throne is in heaven where it remains for eternity.

 

[dfw69]

The Ezekiel prophecies were already fulfilled. Ezekiel 39:29 places the prophecies at the time when God poured out his Spirit upon Israel.

When did God pour out his Spirit upon Israel? On the Day of Pentecost!

Acts chapter 2 fulfilled many prophecies including Joel 2:28-32:



28
And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:

29
and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.



31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered:
for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
as the Lord hath said,
and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

And more specifically, Acts 2:8-11 was a direct fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11-12:




11
And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the Lord shall set his hand again
the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left,
from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros,
and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar,
and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.

Here is the passage in Acts 2:

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


And please note that both the prophecies of Joel and Isaiah promise to save ONLY a remnant of Israel, the same remnant spoken of in Romans 11!

Gog and Magog is the persecuting Jews of the 1st century found throughout Asia Minor where they were predominant, these are labelled the Synagogue of Satan in Revelation. They were already gathered in the valley of Jehoshaphat and massacred by the Romans (whom acting as angels or messengers - malak - or the people of the Prince of God's flaming vengeance).

Ezekiel prophecies were not fulfilled literally...which one day they will...The temple and rebuild city of Jerusalem as with the land divived all coming to pass one day ....

 

[random person]

Ezekiel prophecies were not fulfilled literally...which one day they will...The temple and rebuild city of Jerusalem as with the land divived all coming to pass one day ....

Deluded. Hebrews 8:13, 10:9, and 13:20!

 

[dfw69]

Deluded
. Hebrews 8:13, 10:9, and 13:20!

smh...whatever...

peace

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 24:

The Ezekiel prophecies were already fulfilled.

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) didn't occur in the 1st century. For it won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of 1st century Israel, when, for example, Jerusalem was surrounded by high walls; just as Ezekiel 38:11 is still the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

random person said in post 24:

Ezekiel 39:29 places the prophecies at the time when God poured out his Spirit upon Israel.

Note that Ezekiel 39:29, like the rest of Ezekiel 39:22-29, won't be fulfilled until after the future millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10). For Ezekiel 39:22 means that near the end of the safe time of the future millennium (Ezekiel 38:11), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26,7). So, after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment, God will let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog and Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 24:

Acts chapter 2 fulfilled many prophecies including Joel 2:28-32 . . .

Just as when Matthew says "this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias" (Matthew 3:3-4), he means that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3, so when Peter says "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16-18) he means that what happened at the Pentecost in Acts 2 began the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32. For just as Joel 2:28-32 prophesied the receiving of the Holy Spirit in the "last days" (Acts 2:16-17), so the disciples had just received the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:4). And this happened in the "last days", for they began at Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2). Acts 2:17 continues to be fulfilled today whenever a Christian receives Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6).

But Joel 2:30-31 won't be fulfilled until the future tribulation (e.g. Revelation 6:12, Revelation 8:7, Revelation 17:16, Revelation 16:19). And Joel 2:32 won't be ultimately fulfilled until Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Zechariah 12:10-14), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2-21).

--

random person said in post 25:

Jesus put it best:

My kingdom is not of this world

John 18:36 means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

 

[Interplanner]

To say Christ's throne is in heaven is a bit detached. The Christian proclamation that Christ was Lord was actually phrased (in its word choice) to be competitive with the leadership of Judaism and Rome. In the end of Acts we find "civic" leaders being told what to do by Paul and it is very personal although it is not theocratic. Let's keep that enthroned Christ as close and personal as possible to this world.

For ex., I don't think the founders of the US wanted a theocracy but they did say that the only way the new republic would work was if the individuals had a high view of a personal, kingly, God.

 

[riverrat]

The word "everlasting" can only refer to the eternal state of forever.

Nothing in this fallen world lasts forever, not even the world.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


The promise will be fulfilled in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
I look forward to seeing Abraham and Joshua there.

The promise will be fulfilled in the millennium which is before the arrival of the new heavens and the new earth.

 

[mxyzpt1k]

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Well, all good points, but I want to add a few things. God isn't dealing in deception or in wickedness when he appoints the Antichrist to "Confirm his Covenant, according to Daniel". Or when he elects, "Babylon to receive the interpretation of the Dream/Gospel for the New Heaven, also according to Daniel". There is one personality that deals with deception in the gospel, that is generally Satan, so in the instance of "God and Magog" ... the phrase is used because the context of the gospel does not support a reference to either babylon or the antichrist in revelation 20:8.

We would otherwise call Satan the "Dung Beetle, or God and Magog" but lets make a few other associations first:

1. Agares - God of Ethnic Slurs or Ethnic Cleasning (Christian Demonology)
2. Asag - God that causes sickness or deception (Sumerian)
3. Belphegor - God that decives himself (Jewish)
listverse.***/2010/09/09/top-10-worst-theological-or-mythological-demons

REVELATION 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.

GENESIS 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
.....................
.....................
.....................
These statements are nearly identical. God was sending Abraham out into the world, into the Nations of Canaan (at the time the Homosapien was created, and the Souls of Angels went into the Bodies of Men). So "Gog and Magog" can serve as another name for "Abraham as the Homosapien". Then the gospel cohorts that the "Stars of the Universe" which had been in times past, the enemy of Abraham, will be gifted to Abraham to satisfy the Gospel or the covenant which makes God his enemy. (At the very end of time Judah or the World Generally, denies the providence of the gospel but their war will be resolved soon, when "Zion is Chosen among Judah" as a Separatist Inheritor*, so far this points to the USA or seems to be inscribed to the USA).

 

[BABerean2]

The promise will be fulfilled in the millennium which is before the arrival of the new heavens and the new earth.

I keep wondering why Peter and Paul never mentioned a 1,000 year time after the return of Christ when people still die and sin still exists, and then Satan is released on the world again and Christ has to defeat the armies of Satan again???


Like my old Baptist friend used to say, before he went to be with the Lord,

"It does not make sense to me!".

 

[Interplanner]

Once a person has studied the eschatology issues for a while, they are bound to notice that the "millenium" as literalists see it is a 2nd installment of Judaism all over again. Or at least of a reign of God on this earth that is imperfect. The question should move logically, then, toward fixing the start of this 'very long reign.' Does it start at the resurrection triumph of Christ? Does it start at the NHNE? Does it start independent of those things? If so, three different reigns are marked by doing so.

It would simplify things to reduce from 3 to 2.

 

[mxyzpt1k]

I keep wondering why Peter and Paul never mentioned a 1,000 year time after the return of Christ when people still die and sin still exists, and then Satan is released on the world again and Christ has to defeat the armies of Satan again???


Like my old Baptist friend used to say, before he went to be with the Lord,

"It does not make sense to me!".

"Ophiuchus has been standing on the ecliptic for millennia"
blog.hmns.***/tag/ophiuchus/

ACTS 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

ACTS 28:4 And when the barbarians saw the [venomous] beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
................................

There is what appears to be a "Dung Beetle", which is really Scorpio or "God and Magog" below Constellation Ophiuchus. The Apostle Paul states that Satan would rise against the "Sea" only be chastised. ......... Coincidentally, the Planet Earth is DEAD CENTER in Constellation Scorpio as of this moment as the Planet Earth is in the "Solstice Precessional Alignment" of 1980, 1998, 2012 and 2016 of which the Planet Earth is Dead Center of the "Dark Rift" in the Galactic Center of our Galaxy from 2012 to 2016, generaly speaking. The Apostle Paul declares when the Appoints the Antichrist to officially overthrow "Gog and Magog" deception among the nations.

 

[riverrat]

I keep wondering why Peter and Paul never mentioned a 1,000 year time after the return of Christ when people still die and sin still exists, and then Satan is released on the world again and Christ has to defeat the armies of Satan again???


Like my old Baptist friend used to say, before he went to be with the Lord,

"It does not make sense to me!".

And so if it does not make sense to you then the scripture must not be true.

 

[riverrat]

Once a person has studied the eschatology issues for a while, they are bound to notice that the "millenium" as literalists see it is a 2nd installment of Judaism all over again. Or at least of a reign of God on this earth that is imperfect. The question should move logically, then, toward fixing the start of this 'very long reign.' Does it start at the resurrection triumph of Christ? Does it start at the NHNE? Does it start independent of those things? If so, three different reigns are marked by doing so.

It would simplify things to reduce from 3 to 2.

Try reading scripture. It starts after the tribulation.

 

[dfw69]

I keep wondering why Peter and Paul never mentioned a 1,000 year time after the return of Christ when people still die and sin still exists, and then Satan is released on the world again and Christ has to defeat the armies of Satan again???


Like my old Baptist friend used to say, before he went to be with the Lord,

"It does not make sense to me!".

Perhaps the revelation came after Peter and Paul...it was a time of learning new things never before heard of....how could Peter and Paul have known without revelation?

 

[Interplanner]

dfw can you re-state your last question? Do you mean the Rev text? They did have revelation--God revealed things to them--but I don't know yet what you are asking.