Indigenous Icons: Has Anyone Ever Come Across Any and Why are more not done?

[MKJ]

Based on my research so far, if the question about indigenous Art is answered for Greek Culture, it is roughly this:

that the pride of your Art history, your culture, is willingly cast aside. That the Art you are known for, an idealized naturalism that has been revolutionary, that has 'made your name' across geographical borders, that has been adopted by and willingly embraced by disparate cultures through trade and colonization, is replaced by an Art that has at its center the reality of Jesus Christ and the desire to depict a spiritual reality in material in part as a theological reality (Incarnation) and in part as a form of right-use/stewardship of offering creation back to God.

To put it in roughly the terms of Worringer's thesis Abstraction and Empathy, 1919 (further developed by other Art historians, critics, and artists): you overthrow your heritage, your pride, to embrace the ascendancy of Christ. The self-sufficient world and self fall back, and the greater reality, of Christ and His kingdom, takes precedence.

This is not unlike the rejection of the Philosophical tradition - another inheritance, a cultural pride - in preference to the true love of wisdom, the love of Christ, the Wisdom of God. Read St. Basil and others schooled in the traditional Greek inheritance on Philosophy and the superiority of Christianity. Note that these educated in Hellenistic thought recognized its inferiority to the Gospel. Of course, their training in Philosophy and Rhetoric prepared them for the use of language, but also for the response to heresies that arose more specifically from the interpretive application of Philosophy to Christianity.

You know, I don't think anyone really disagrees with this, but it is a very fine line to walk, and frankly I think it affects those cultures which have a long history of Christianity as much as those that don't. In fact, it may be that it is even more a problem for them, because those who are adapting a use know clearly what is specifically Christian and what isn't, and are forced to think about it, but it is very very easy for others to imagine that their own tradition is purely and simply Christian.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The crack that appears running through Judas occurred sometime after the Icon was made ... serendipitous, if you will

That makes sense....

 

[Thekla]

You know, I don't think anyone really disagrees with this, but it is a very fine line to walk, and frankly I think it affects those cultures which have a long history of Christianity as much as those that don't. In fact, it may be that it is even more a problem for them, because those who are adapting a use know clearly what is specifically Christian and what isn't, and are forced to think about it, but it is very very easy for others to imagine that their own tradition is purely and simply Christian.

Always there are fine lines, and imo Christianity requires of the adherent constant vigilence regardless of cultural background.

But what is interesting in the matter from what I can see (and have experienced firsthand) is the radical shift and concomitant sacrifice.

In the matter of the Greek community, there is an awareness of both the seeping of Christianity into the culture (among Orthodox) and this radical shift.

My own (Greek) family, who left Orthodoxy 3 generations before me, always refer to themselves not as Greeks but specifically Hellenes. The recognition of ancient Hellenic culture is prominent in all aspects of my family, from the particular approach to things, to naming (my cousins have children with names like Io and Thales), profession (Philosophy, Anthropology, teaching, etc.). Spouses who marry in are, in my family's terminology, "Hellenized" (though we are a multi-cultural group). My grandfather had a beautiful and deep Christian faith, and this always shone through everything he did and even his very manner. (Though now we number likely more atheists than Christians.)

When I mentioned to my spiritual father that our family uses the term "Hellene" for ourselves, he smiled and noted that for Greeks this was akin to calling oneself pagan. There is still this awareness it seems of the prominence of the Christianization of the Greeks (though there is also a pride and recognition of culture, it seems secondary).

But this is not just about the Greek Orthodox break with the past ... at least in the Iconography, the same seems to occur throughout the various Orthodox ethnoi. At least a look at the Art vis a vis the Iconography indicates this.

For non-Orthodox Christianization, this seems out of bounds for me to really respond to. Of course within Orthodox culture, there is secular Art with Christian themes (Feast Day carols, Art, Literature, etc.). So likewise in other cultures the forms of extra-Liturgical expression may carry forth both the earlier forms and (a core feature of all the Arts) the continuing dialogue with the past in the present. Here, the previous culture may be more likely carried. And there are traces of this in Iconography, in Chant, etc. within the Liturgical context as well (the use of some of the Pythagorean modes in the east, trimmed and refitted by St. John of Damascus, the particularity of Iconography for each though still mutually intelligible).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Culture has always influenced art. Art historians hold up the Ghent Altar Piece as one of the most significant examples of Flemish art:

In reformation era Germany, the likes of Cranach and Drurer are held up as examples of that era from that culture:
Albrecht Drurer

Almost everyone, protestant, Catholic, Orthodox and everyone else may not know the name of the artist, but do recognize Drurer's praying hands:

Altarpieces by Lucas Cranach:

All of the above, influenced by their respective cultures.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Culture has always influenced art. Art historians hold up the Ghent Altar Piece as one of the most significant examples of Flemish art:

In reformation era Germany, the likes of Cranach and Drurer are held up as examples of that era from that culture:
Albrecht Drurer

Almost everyone, protestant, Catholic, Orthodox and everyone else may not know the name of the artist, but do recognize Drurer's praying hands:

Good points - I would wonder, on the issue, whether it is always bad if culture impacts art (or reverse) if Christ is always present.

Altarpieces by Lucas Cranach:

All of the above, influenced by their respective cultures.

I think a good question would be asking "How to know when art was influenced by the culture - or when culture was influenced by art?"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In a sense, it both did/didn't. The excavations of the Synagogue at Dura-Europos (244 AD, pre-Byzantine) show a remarkable similarity with early Christian iconography, and comparison with the Fayum portraits (1st c. BC - 1st c. AD, Egypt, a mixed culture) is also instructive. The paintings found in Pompeii and ancient Roman house paintings also show a sort of overlap (though this may be a matter of shared technique), though I think the first two examples are stronger.


So in short, Iconography developed before Byzantine culture existed and shows visual similarity to Jewish, Egyptian, and to some extent with early Art from Rome and Pompeii.

In this, it is not much Greek, at least varying greatly from the Greek Art of the Classical period (what many consider the high point of Greek Art). The Classical period style continued well into the Common Era, and was also much admired and adopted by Rome. Worringer classifies this Art as "realism" (really, a heightened realism imo) and thus it is an Art which lauds a satisfaction with the earthly state, unlike Iconography. The attention to the details of an idealized body type was especially assigned to heroes and gods. Contrast this with the largely unmodelled/flat depiction of the body (robed) in Iconography. Given the status (if you will) of Christ and the Saints, this represents possibly a massive departure for Greek culture.

The question aside from this is both impossible and easy to answer -- it likely might have been a bit different. As before, the use of the profile seems novel to Iconography (though I in no way am well informed enough to be confidant in this), and the hand signs likely evolved from Liturgical practice. In this, it is likely that if the NT had been penned in other than Greek, the signage would almost surely be different.

I can definitely get that iconography had influences from other cultures beyond the Byzantine world when seeing Egyptian and Jewish cultural presentations and thus tracing the roots of things makes a world of difference

I just wonder how differently things would have looked if the center of civilization that iconography developed happened outside of the Byzantine context. In example, after the Jewish and Egyptian influences - if the center of Christian thought had shifted to the Mongols in East Asia, how different would things have looked...Or if the Jewish influences were built upon from the Jewish communities within the Indian context/culture and then things went from there

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Here's one example, of course, of Indian Madonna and Christ

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[Gxg (G²)]

that the pride of your Art history, your culture, is willingly cast aside. That the Art you are known for, an idealized naturalism that has been revolutionary, that has 'made your name' across geographical borders, that has been adopted by and willingly embraced by disparate cultures through trade and colonization, is replaced by an Art that has at its center the reality of Jesus Christ and the desire to depict a spiritual reality in material in part as a theological reality (Incarnation) and in part as a form of right-use/stewardship of offering creation back to God..

Icons that stood out a lot...

This one is the Virgin of Tenderness, from the School of the Greek Islands, 17th century. It is a part of a collection of rare portraits of the Virgin Mary - from St. George and St. Anthony Coptic Orthodox Church, Heliopolis, Cairo, Egypt

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And here are more Ethiopian Icons...

Additionally, here is an icon (Coptic) of Jesus Christ sitting on the throne of glory surrounded in a symbolic form by the four apostles - for in Christ’s left hand is a scroll, which bears a verse from the Bible, and inside the nimbus around Christ’s head is another verse from the Bible, surmounted with a third verse in red ink. This icon was created by Ibrahim and Uhanna the Armenian in 1464 Coptic calendar (1748 AD) - An icon at Alexandria Library, Egypt.

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[Gxg (G²)]

​

When I mentioned to my spiritual father that our family uses the term "Hellene" for ourselves, he smiled and noted that for Greeks this was akin to calling oneself pagan. There is still this awareness it seems of the prominence of the Christianization of the Greeks (though there is also a pride and recognition of culture, it seems secondary).

But this is not just about the Greek Orthodox break with the past ... at least in the Iconography, the same seems to occur throughout the various Orthodox ethnoi. At least a look at the Art vis a vis the Iconography indicates this.

For non-Orthodox Christianization, this seems out of bounds for me to really respond to. Of course within Orthodox culture, there is secular Art with Christian themes (Feast Day carols, Art, Literature, etc.). So likewise in other cultures the forms of extra-Liturgical expression may carry forth both the earlier forms and (a core feature of all the Arts) the continuing dialogue with the past in the present. Here, the previous culture may be more likely carried. And there are traces of this in Iconography, in Chant, etc. within the Liturgical context as well (the use of some of the Pythagorean modes in the east, trimmed and refitted by St. John of Damascus, the particularity of Iconography for each though still mutually intelligible).

I think that as a long as a dialogue is occurring with the past, then that's what should be considered when it comes to the ways that the world develops today - I makes a world of difference when knowing how things are more so like links in a chain - each connecting each thing together...

And the styles have shifted greatly in time. Here's one, for example, showing Christ driving out the merchants...

And another showing his transfiguration (Miniature from an Armenian Gospel (Ms 6201. Fol 6). 1038. Matenadaran, Yerevan, Armenia).

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And for more...

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A Crucifixion scene. The "Khludov Psalter". Moscow​

Here, for example, is Khludov Psalter (detail), 9th century. The image represents the Iconoclast theologian, John Grammaticus

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And of course, here i (as well as another) - some of the saints who were against icons, ironically..

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[Gxg (G²)]

Of course, there is the debate about the "westernized icons" in Russia, Greece, etc. These do have sometimes beautiful lines, but then I have a tendency to avoid them (I know, I'm a snob ) because they have lost their "abstract quality". Here I refer to the observation of Wilhelm Worringer (more developed by others) that abstraction occurs in Art more so when cultures are interested in the spiritual, and realism more so as a satisfaction with the earthly.

So the question becomes for me not whether there should be indigenous Iconography with in Orthodoxy (I'm answering specifically from within a Tradition). There already is - a Georgian, Romanian, Egyptian, etc. But what elements other cultures might have to lose in their traditional Art to create a specifically Orthodox (or Christian in general) Iconography, and what can they keep.

The latter is perhaps more easily answered by looking more closely at the Art traditions of each of the cultures that have undergone this transformation - of course also looking at the non-Iconographic Art of these cultures after the adoption of Christianity.

I think a very good question to consider on the issue would be along the lines of "How many Indigenous Saints do you see reflected in Iconography itself within the Orthodox world" - in addition to the previous question of what you presented when wondering what elements can either be kept or altered to create specifically Orthodox (or Christian in general) Iconography.


In example, this is one of the few examples of Indigenous icons I can see as it's explictly Native American in features.

As another noted wisely on him:

Another Alaskan saint is Peter the Aleut. He was born in Kodiak in the late 1700s. While in his teens he accompanied Russian fur trappers to northern California. In 1815, while hunting in his kayak south of San Francisco he was captured by Spanish soldiers. He refused to be rebaptized insisting that he was already a Christian. In their zeal to convert Peter the Roman Catholic priests cruelly dismembered his hands and feet. Today he is known as the “Martyr of San Francisco.”​

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And In example, of course we have others from the Boxer Rebellion who are Martyrs - such as St.Mitrophan Chinese Martyr of the Boxer Rebellion and the other Chinese Martyrs

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Synagogue, Dura Europos

https://www.google.com/search?q=syn...Bui0sASqjYCYAQ&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1438&bih=1018

Mummy Portraits, Fayum

https://www.pinterest.com/EllenJayeBenson/fayum-mummy-portraits/

The Mummy portraits were very noteworthy in the depictions of features present and how they were symbolized in a manner reflecting the actual people in their culture for how their culture was...

And as it concerns the Dura Europos

Some of the depictions of synagouges are fascinating when seeing how they were designed. Some of the artwork they have present today in some synagouges is truly stunning, be it those from the early church or those in modern day times:

• Dura Europos, Syria
• Ancient Jewish art | jewish-art
• A Witness of Ancient Jewish Mysteries? - Temple Themes
• Remains Of Ancient Synagogue With Unique Mosaic Floor Found ...
• Synagogue Art Designs Jewish Ceremonial Sanctuary Art Trees of ...
• Jewish Art in Late Antiquity and Early Byzantium | Thematic Essay ...

From United Orthodox Synagogues:​

And with the Dura Europos, there has been discussion elsewhere on that subject before - as seen here:

Ancient Jewish Icons | The Orthodox Life

Just found out on this recently and thought you'd like it, as it's an icon-image of the Biblical character of Samson...very interesting to consider when it comes to examining the ways early Israel was very much for the concept of icons within fellowships and not against pictures. For more, one can go to the following:

• Mosaic in Israel shows biblical Samson - CNN.com
• MYSTAGOGY: Samson Mosaic Discovered in Galilee Synagogue
• Biblical Samson Torches Fox Tails in Ancient Synagogue Mosaic ...
• Ancient Mosaic Floor in Galilee Synagogue Uncovered - Inside ...

A 1,600-year-old mosiac found in Huqoq, Israel. Photos from Israel Antiquities Authority, photographer Jim Haberman, via Bloomberg.
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Also, for more:
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Holy Icons: The ancient Christian tradition of images ​

Many thanks for the pics/information. I think that the significance of iconagraphy would not truly lessen if the Jewish people happened to adapt icons/art from the surrounding Greek/Roman context. If it was something already present during the very invention of the synagouge, that shows that the Lord used iconagraphy long before the Messiah arrived on the scene.....and if occurred afterward, it'd show how the Lord had it on His mind to give to the Church as a means of glorifying Him. Either way, the art still speaks just like creation does in praising Christ!!!!

.......

On icons, some commentary alongside beautiful examples of others within Jewish synagouges (as seen/found here and here):

....not only the Christians, but EVEN THE JEWS comprehended the term “idol” with its proper meaning, which is: “a depiction of God”. This is why both Christians and Jews of the first Christian era had ONLY images (icons) in their places of worship.

And here is the evidence:

Dura Europos was a Hellenic city, built by Nicator the Seleucid on the right bank of the river Euphrates, near Palmyra. It was besieged by Rome in 165 A.D. and was destroyed by the Persian Sasanides in 256 A.D.. Most of the edifices of the city were discovered under the sand, and were in perfect condition. Among them, was a Judean Synagogue as well as the most ancient of all Christian temples, which has remained intact to this day.

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Photograph of the Judean Synagogue in Dura Europos. The murals date back to 235 A.D.. It was discovered in 1921.
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Detail from the Synagogue. Scene from the Book of Esther.The resemblance to Byzantine Hagiography is remarkable. This is natural, as Hellenistic art forms were applied.
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The most ancient of all Christian churches is also preserved in Dura Europos.

Sections of the iconography can be seen on the wall. Opposite the entrance stood the elevated Altar, the “«tablinum». The Archaeologists tell us that this was where the liturgies took place, on this altar, by the Bishop. It dates back to 230-260 A.D.
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Some other articles that may bless you:

• Jewish Iconography in Ancient Synagogues - Ancient Christian ...
  An Ancient 'Obsession' with Sukkot Iconography | JewishPress
• Ancient Jewish art and archaeology in the diaspora - Google Books

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Pompeii

https://www.google.com/search?q=pom...NZe_sQTG3oLQCg&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1438&bih=1018


https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...an/wall-painting/a/roman-wall-painting-styles

wall (house) paintings, Rome:

https://www.google.com/search?q=rom...Gq2BsQS7vYKoCA&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1438&bih=1018

this pull was a real mix, proceed with caution

1st c., Greece

https://www.google.com/search?q=1st...F5C1sQT-h4HQCA&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1438&bih=1018

Thanks for those, as they did come in handy...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

fwiw, an article on hand gestures in iconography:

https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/what-does-this-hand-gesture-mean-in-icons/

the article posits that some of the gestures come from earlier (non-Christian) times; the question becomes how does the addition of new hand gestures affect the living tradition of existing Icons and our ability to "read" them ?

Also: https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/what-makes-an-icon-holy/

.

As before, the use of the profile seems novel to Iconography (though I in no way am well informed enough to be confidant in this), and the hand signs likely evolved from Liturgical practice. In this, it is likely that if the NT had been penned in other than Greek, the signage would almost surely be different

For starters, there can really be no avoiding the reality that certain hand gestures in the Greek world were never limited to those areas - they did the same hand gestures globally, as seen in Tibet when it came to Buddhism..

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The symbolic hand gestures of Buddha are called mudras - although for those who do not yet know Christ, when seeing Budda do it, it means something radically different than how it comes to be reinterpreted when seeing believers present it. And thus we cannot limit things to the West as if they had the monopoly on a hand gesture - although we can say that within a Christian context, they mean certain things (and these gestures themselves already developed within Roman Culture itself prior to the rise of Christianity anyhow) - but seeing that these hand gestures referred to as mudras in an Indian or Buddhist context differ, what really seems to be present is the religious context.

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Again, Pictographic imagery in ancient writings is quite common....and in fact, it seems to go as far back (With hand gestures) as Egyptian hieroglyphics - and imagery symbols as well, as it concerns the Cherubim...

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And of course, we know that imagery and hand gestures is very clear in Israels worship depicted in OT scripture. ie. hands that were waving the sheaf, pouring out, washing hands etc. Imagery such as tablets of commandments, the ark of the covenant, Aarons rod, manna in the ark, Israels tribal pictures etc.....but it was never limited to being something that only Christians in the West could say "You HAVE to do it like us since we made it up"


That said...

I do wonder on that, however, in light of the fact that hand signage is not always used in all forms of icons. There are plenty, for example, where the Lord is described in non-human terms (as some cultures do likewise with their religious figures) - like showing the Lord as the Lamb of God when it comes to noting " Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
(Rev. 5:11)"

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[Gxg (G²)]

I have Armenian and Coptic icons in my home alongside the western Ukrainian and the Byzantine styles for something like that exact reason, and I would like to have examples of modern non-western cultural artifacts that express the themes of Christian iconography one day, too.

Here is one particularly nice example of pursuing just that end: The Catholic Basilica of the Annuncation in Nazareth has some thirty-odd representations of Theotokos and Child, the Nativity, the Annunciation, and/or Jesus that each come from different world cultures and were donated by the churches within those countries. Many of them represent attempts by Catholics to present Christian themes and traditional iconography in the visual styles of those cultures (though not all). The church is surrounded by a wall around the perimeter of its territory, and these are displayed both on the inside of that wall, and on the interior wall of the Upper Church.

Here are a few samples that I felt were more unique (and relevant to this conversation; there are also some interesting modern art examples as well):

China:

Thailand:

Cameroon:

Japan:

And there are also two statues, the first from India and the second from Taiwan:

The full catalog, with many other countries and more traditional (but equally diverse) European and Latin American forms can be seen here: National Mosaics in the Basilica of Annunciation

Concerning the issue, I came across this one of late and I thought it was truly fascinating.

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For a brief description:

Mahamrityunjaya Mantra
ॐ त्रिएक परमेश्वर यजामहे सुगन्धिंम् पुष्टिवर्धनम् ।
उर्वारुकमिव बन्धनान् मृत्योर्मुक्षीय मामृतात्

Prayer to the One who is Victorious over Death I worship the Three-in-One God who is fragrant and who nourishes and nurtures all beings. As a cucumber is freed from its bondage by the gardener, may He liberate me from bondage to death unto eternal life
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Jesus sits upon a lotus flower, giving two mudras: His right hand showing the mudra of Abhaya, symbolizing protection, peace, benevolence, and dispelling of fear, while his left hand displays the Varada mudra, symbolizing ‘open-handed’ generosity such as charity or the granting of wishes. Wikipedia writes that "it is nearly always shown made with the left hand by a revered figure devoted to human salvation from greed, anger and delusion." Behind his head is a cross halo. Fiery bands emanate from him, like an aureola. Overall, I think it's a dynamic design, and I like the gold tones throughout, which reminds me of ancient Byzantine mosaics. One thing that I question, however, is the use of the Tilak or Bindi symbol on Jesus' forehead.

Frank Wesley rarely used this symbol in his paintings of Jesus, though he did in at least one (rather, he typically opted for painting Jesus' forehead in a golden hue to represent knowledge of God). Naomi Wray writes that "here it may represent a vertical third eye, the never-closing eye of the all-seeing God." She concludes that "This was not an image readily accepted by the Christian community" (Frank Wesley: Exploring Faith With a Brush, 34).

Interestingly, the Yeshu Satsang Toronto, a monthly Hindu-style worship service lead by Chris Hale (of Christian music group Aradhna) and his wife Miranda Stone, provides sandlewood paste for followers of Jesus "to apply to their foreheads in the form of a dot (tilak). This symbolizes that the person is a spiritual seeker, serious about the pursuit of God."​

It is because of the fact that differing cultures have their own forms that we must be sensitive whenever it comes to others seeking to promote the Gospel and yet doing so in ways that actually match their culture and reflect it wonderfully whenever it comes to seeing the example of how the Church did things.

For example, if seeing life within the Malankara Orthodox Church, There are Asharams, in the Christian Monastic tradition that have done stellar with regards to their use of icons to glorify the Lord while also keeping their culture in tact - with people who valued that and coming to mind being others like E.Stanley Jones - and it is so timely what they do. Here are some, for example, from others who are are Yeshu Bhakta (more on them here and here, here and here):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiu9Z8pL7Ds

ARADHNA - Yeshu Muktinath (Official Music Video) - YouTube

I'm not conversant enough in the particulars of the Art of each culture presented (including the Orthodox cultures), the degree of shift in the adoption of a specialized visual language and the potential rupture away from the previous Art of the culture, the particular visual language of non-Orthodox cultures presented here, etc.

There is also the matter of what is meant by "icon" - the particular, specialized Liturgical Art-ish (as it falls somewhat outside of what Art is sometimes considered to be) of Iconography, versus the use of line, color, form, etc. -image - as an expressive or evocative medium. There is also the (argued) delineation of Art vs. Illustration, and degrees of abstraction in both ...

One thing that is notable is the deeper similarity within the variety of cultural styles of Orthodox Iconography. All (including Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic) are deeply stylized thematically and (if you will) to a particular visual/symbolic language that is mutually comprehensible between the different cultures ... just as Liturgy is mutually comprehensible even if one is not conversant in the particular tongue of the celebrant.

A Georgian priest served the Liturgy at my parish in Georgian ... no problem for me, as I already know the Liturgy. And could rely on gestures and visual context/clues to know exactly what was being prayed. From what I've seen thus far, Iconography is also - importantly - mutually comprehensible.

As the Orthodox Icons are the products of often very different cultures, it would seem safe to say that some if not all of these cultures adopted a visual language that represented something of a break with the previous (secular) Art of the people.

So, for example, some of the Art depicted in the thread shows persons - persons accepted as Saints among the Orthodox - in profile. It should be noted that Saints are never shown in profile in iconography. In fact, the Icon of the Mystical Supper (Ravenna, iirc) demonstrates the compromised spirituality of Judas by depicting him in frank profile. Persons can be depicted in 3/4 face, depending on the needs of the scene depicted.

How does this language of profile vs. full, or 3/4 face compare with Art before Christian Iconography ? Though I can recall profile-depictions in the friezes of ancient Crete and on the the Parthenon, and assume they are not negative, I cannot confidently state this, nor for any other Orthodox cultures (Armenian, Coptic, Russian, Ukranian, etc.)

As Icons are "incarnational", I do think some degree of accuracy about the depiction of actual persons and historic events is essential to the function and value of Icons - and here I agree (iirc) with MKJ. Iconographers have freely depicted the variety of ethnicities of the Saints, and in fact demonstrating this variety as the Gospel spreads is part of announcing the victory of Christ and the effect of this victory for "all" nations/ethnoi. That Christ was not incarnate as this or that ethnicity but a particular ethnicity is fine with me (maybe because the House of David includes red-heads more than any other of the tribes, and I'm a red-head )

Culture has always influenced art.

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It's cool witnessing the ways that culture influences art on so many different levels - I really enjoyed this piece as an example of that, where Zaccheus Meets Jesus

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And this one is the dedication of Jesus:

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And of course, outside of that, here's Jesus loves children - Chinese style

In addition to that, this is the "Our Lady of China"

This one is of the women arriving at the tomb after Jesus rose - and the Baptism of Christ:

This one is of Jesus in Japan:

Additionally, these on the life of Christ are very noteworthy as it concerns the Thai Style...

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This one is fascinating as well, as it concerns Jesus's life - from Thailand

Finally, this one (by Sawai Chinnawong ) depicts Mary listening to Jesus with her sister Martha on background.... Bible narratives in the Thai setting. While the second one is Jesus praying in Gethsemane in the style of Thangka paintings

 

[George95]

Maybe it's because I'm used to the Byzantine/Greek style of icons, particularly mosaics, but I've never been a fan of indigenous icons.

 

[Tigger45]

Wow, all I can say is they are very interesting and very beautiful.

Great thread!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Maybe it's because I'm used to the Byzantine/Greek style of icons, particularly mosaics, but I've never been a fan of indigenous icons.

Definitely understand - as everyone is different in their leanings. I find myself appreciating both the Byzantine/Greek style and other things outside of it..

One I actually came across today which really stood out to me - from Ethiopian Orthodox in Jamaica (specifically Assumpta Tafari Tafrow), the Virgn Saint Maryam and Her Son ~ with Archangel St. Mikael and With Salutation to Archangel Saint Gabriel,the Angel of the Annunciation

And for others...

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[Gxg (G²)]

Wow, all I can say is they are very interesting and very beautiful.

Great thread!

Thanks for the encouragement and glad to know things were a blessing. If there are any that stood out to you, would love to hear...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Wow, all I can say is they are very interesting and very beautiful.

One of Jesus as it concerns "The Word became Flesh" like John 1 says...

Here's One of Adam and Eve....sadao_watanabe

Heqi-jesus aswell as Noah and the Ark..

Additionally, Jesus-Thangka and the Jerusalem-entry AS Well as Mary-Martha

And Japanese Mary & Jesus

Additionally, Philippino Jesus

One of my favorites....as it's a Russian icon/

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Of course, it cannot compare to the ways other icons have been done within the Russian Orthodox world:

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Nonetheless, there are others which truly do stand out even if not in line with the Byzantine style - with this one here being one example...

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[Thekla]

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For starters, there can really be no avoiding the reality that certain hand gestures in the Greek world were never limited to those areas - they did the same hand gestures globally, as seen in Tibet when it came to Buddhism..http://hubpages.com/video/Tibetan-Buddhist-Rituals

I am not limiting hand gestures to the west, or even to cultures within the west; in fact, I am noting the origin of this particular sign to the spelling out of a particular Christian meaning in the language of the Gospel (Greek). And noting also, within Christian history, the origin of the hand-blessing in Jewish practice, and the continuance of the use of hand-blessing among Christians, but corrected/updated to include the identification of Jesus Christ and Christian understanding.

From the same site:

Symbolism of the Blessing
The fingers spell out “IC XC”, a widely used four letter abbreviation of the Greek for Jesus (IHCOYC) Christ (XPICTOC). It is by the name of Jesus that we are saved and receive blessings: “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;” (Phil 2:10).

The three fingers of Christ – as well as spelling out “I” and “X” – confess the Tri-unity of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The touching finger and thumb of Jesus not only spell out “C”, but attest to the Incarnation: to the joining of divine and human natures found in the body of Jesus Christ.

Thus, in iconography there is a particular and very specific meaning to the hand-sign which is maintained in iconography regardless of the particular language of the particular iconographer.

As hand signs in general are not typically (in the ancient cultures under discussion) known, nor even the cultural origin (ex.: were the Roman hand signs shown ubiquitous, were they adopted from other cultures, did other cultures that became Christian use these signs or did they give up particular hand-signs ?) then it becomes difficult to know much else about them. That they were adopted in iconography, to form a common visual language can be demonstrated by looking.

This is not unlike the adoption of certain Biblical phrases into the vernacular, or Christian concepts, or even the specialization of existing terms away from their vernacular meaning. This is a sort of "steeping" of a language/culture in the Scriptures.

The same phenomenon can be traced in the English language, for example, by studying phrases, now common, from Shakespeare. I don't think it is possible to say for sure whether all of these were indeed Shakespeare's invention.

But one could argue that Orthodox Churches in the British Isles or in the States should use Shakespearian phrases instead of Biblical phrases/illustrations in the worship in order to be authentically British, or English, or USAmerican.

 

[Thekla]

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Again, Pictographic imagery in ancient writings is quite common....and in fact, it seems to go as far back (With hand gestures) as Egyptian hieroglyphics - and imagery symbols as well, as it concerns the Cherubim...

Yes of course it is; I agree.

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And of course, we know that imagery and hand gestures is very clear in Israels worship depicted in OT scripture. ie. hands that were waving the sheaf, pouring out, washing hands etc. Imagery such as tablets of commandments, the ark of the covenant, Aarons rod, manna in the ark, Israels tribal pictures etc.....but it was never limited to being something that only Christians in the West could say "You HAVE to do it like us since we made it up"


That said...

I do wonder on that, however, in light of the fact that hand signage is not always used in all forms of icons. There are plenty, for example, where the Lord is described in non-human terms (as some cultures do likewise with their religious figures) - like showing the Lord as the Lamb of God when it comes to noting " Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
(Rev. 5:11)"

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And non-hand sign icons abound as well; but again, these visual images as you have noted above are still in the visual language of the Scriptures.

It is not western cultures imposing their hand-signs on other cultures per se, but holding in many cases a Scriptural standard to the language of the image. In other cases, it is the repeated use of this visual language that has made the language for Orthodox universal - no matter what the particular hand-signs were in the receiving culture.

And the hand blessing signs (spelling Christ) were not "made up". They reflect Scripture (like the use of the footstool, or Christ having His feet in a particular place in the icon "the Harrowing of Hell" and the Biblical phrase "make ... enemies the footstool of your feet").

Remember, many of these now Orthodox cultures had no written language which would suggest they used hand-signs for communication.

Either the Roman signs were universal by the time of the conversion of the Slavs, or they adopted the existing hand-signs in iconography instead of their own.