Mat_7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
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Lol - this otta get your balding head going - who said anything about you being my brother
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Misplaced, irrevelant, and erroneous attack.
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Lol - this otta get your balding head going - who said anything about you being my brother
"On that day when Christ come for His own, He'll decide who is ready based on their heart and reward them based on their deeds."
He will .... and already has .... the Lord knows the end from the beginning
He will .... and already has .... the Lord knows the end from the beginning
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Morgan Edwards-- Yes. He wrote a paper on the subject while he was in seminary. However, there is no evidence that Darby got the doctrine from Edwards.
ECF-- No. Grant Jeffrey attempted to show a pretrib doctrine by the ECF by cutting out the parts of their quotes that showed a post-trib view.
You and others have attempted to ignore the fabrication.
Grant Jeffreys revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf
Pseudo-Ephraem- Syriac version-- No.
Pseudo- Ephraem- Later Latin version-- Yes.
Who was Pseudo-Ephraem ? Nobody knows. Is he a reliable source????
Joseph Smith also claimed to have been visited by an angel and claimed to have discovered gold plates. However, many of us have some problems believing his story as well.
Dr. Tommy Ice claims that Darby discovered the pretrib doctrine during 1827 while recovering from a riding accident.
However, his 1829 paper written from the viewpoint of a historicist, amill makes no mention of the idea.
Darby, J. N., Reflections (1829), Prophetic No. 1
Reflections upon the Prophetic Inquiry and the views advanced in it
Several former members of the Irvingites credit Margaret Macdonald with coming up with the "Secret Rapture" doctrine.
The "Secret Rapture" idea appeared in the September 1830 issue of the Irvingite periodical "The Morning Watch".
Brethren historian F.R. Coad wrote a paper in 1966 detailing the history of the Brethren and plainly stated that John Darby's adoption of the "Secret Rapture" and his division of scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church led to the rift between Darby and Benjamin Newton.
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
Coad also included the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza and Edward Irving's English translation of the book, in his chronology of events that led to Dispensational Theology.
Lacunzas book Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty is available at
PDF Files
As far as the paper by Pastor Tim Warner not containing one iota of evidence as to the true facts of our disagreement, others will have to judge the paper for themselves.
As is stated in the complete bibliography with the paper, copies of various parts of the paper can be accessed at several seminaries in the United States.
As to the claim that Pastor Warner stated that it is only an inference that Darby got the doctrine from Macdonald, you need to provide a quote and a page number, because I must have missed that part after reading the paper several times. However, I could have missed it.
You forgot to mention Pastor Warner's assertion that the origin of the doctrine has been purposely hidden.
"The story of the development of pretribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And the cover up continues to this day."
The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine by Tim Warner, page 1
Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
We also have Dr. Charles Ryrie stating that Darby became interested in prophecy while attending one of the Albury conferences, in Ryrie's book "Dispensationalism".
You have loudy proclaimed that Ryrie is wrong on this point.
Since he is on your team, you will have to take that up with Ryrie.
Let those sitting in the pews of the evangelical Church in America have access to the historical documents and let them decide the truth.
As we have seen on this forum, the greatest challenge to the pretrib doctrine comes from God's Word instead of an analysis of the historical documents.
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Some people are chained to the stake and stuck in the swirl of human intellect
Like a man with one foot nailed to the floor ..... walking in a circular snare from which they cannot escape
For those that do not know where they are going, any road will take them there
A two punch fraud ....
The young girl with a big imagination had no valid vision [only the Bible prophets have valid visions]
And the purported and false vision displays the church in tribulation
The hoaxters then make up a story telling that one called Darby looked and somehow came up with the idea that the vision displayed a pre-tribulation action by the Lord to call His true ecclesia home before
Who owns the trick?
These pied pipers of balderdash play games with the human minds
Like a man with one foot nailed to the floor ..... walking in a circular snare from which they cannot escape
For those that do not know where they are going, any road will take them there
A two punch fraud ....
The young girl with a big imagination had no valid vision [only the Bible prophets have valid visions]
And the purported and false vision displays the church in tribulation
The hoaxters then make up a story telling that one called Darby looked and somehow came up with the idea that the vision displayed a pre-tribulation action by the Lord to call His true ecclesia home before
Who owns the trick?
These pied pipers of balderdash play games with the human minds
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Exactly - McDonald's "vision" was not only as "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" as BAB2's "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous attack," but so was the obvious - that BAB2 never brings up - that her "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" vision was Post-Trib - in short, as "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous," as BAB2's own "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous," Post-Trib error.
The Post-Trib view is actually heresy - the Lord cleanses His Own by His Blood, and then makes them work for their salvation "unto the end" of some "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" Post-Trib "Rapture."
Yo, B, be honest - write these anti-Pre-Tribbers about your "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" Post-Trib view, see if they don't turn their version of your "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" lens on their number one fan, quicker than he can type "Darby!"
You're as bad as they are - how they lump various writers together as if they all support the whole of their "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous attack."
Grant Jeffrey and his ilk had and have nothing on the consistently "Misplaced, irrelevant, and erroneous" ways of your peanut gallery of sloppy, dishonest, "researchers."
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What will you do when you will realize that you have been mislead to believe that Jesus will come to caught you up pre-tribulation ,but that you discover that in reality Jesus will come as a thief at the 7Th Vial near the End of the Tribulation ? Will you consider what the Scripture clearly tells you or will you simply ignore it because it don't match your belief ?What have more chance to happen: your belief in the seductive false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine which have become like a religion in itself ?// or will you believe the Bible who talk about Jesus coming as a thief written in Revelation 16:15 at the moment that the 7 Th Vial will be poured out ... when all the armies will be gathered at Armageddon (Rev16:16) for the Battle of that Great Day of God Almighty ...
Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great
Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great
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Gnarwhal
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You all amuse me.
Christ will come again to judge the quick and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end. The tribulation is 2,000 years old and still going strong. No rapture.
Christ will come again to judge the quick and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end. The tribulation is 2,000 years old and still going strong. No rapture.
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There is also absolutely zero evidence that Darby got the Idea from MArgaret MAcDonald. A hundred years of desperate research has come up lacking a single scrap of concrete evidence. All they can do is "infer" that this was the source of the idea.BEABerean2 said:
If Jeffery indeed said the things Warner claimed he said, then Jeffery was indeed wrong. And as such, his conclusions were no more based in fact that were Warner's own unwarranted conclusions.
The actual identity of this writer is indeed unknown. But that is immaterial. As is the question of his reliability. For the version that was unquestionably pre-trib was unquestionably produced many centuries before Darby was born. So there can be absolutely zero doubt that the doctrine was being taught at least in early medieval times.
But you left out Irenaeus, whose writings I have analyzed ans discussed in this forum. His use of pronouns changed from "we" (or "the church") to "they," "them," and "those" after the time of which he said "when the church is suddenly caught up... there will be great tribulation." So he was most certainly teaching a rapture before "the great tribulation," which he said would be "the half week." So this doctrine was indeed taught in ancient times.
And it popped up again in the late Medieval period, in a 1316 anonymous history of "brother Dolceno," who had died in 1307. So the doctrine was taught in the late medieval period.
Joseph Mede (1586-1638) wrote "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776) Again, in 1674 Thomas Collier wrote against the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, thus indicating that someone must have been teaching it at that time. At about the same time, Peter Jurieu wrote somewhat indistinctly about a pre-trib rapture. And in 1700, John AsGill wrote that "Man may be translated from hence into that Eternal Life, without passing through Death." So this subject was under discussion in the latter part of the reformation period.
And although Morgan Edwards first wrote about a pretribulation rapture as a student in 1744, that was in Latin. And in 1788 he published it in English. So it had been published in English twelve years before Darby was born. (And, incidentally, 24 years before Lacunza's book was first published.)
In 1815 James H. Frere wrote: "The sitting of the Ancient of Days and the judgment of the saints mentioned in Daniel, must therefore CONSIDERABLY PRECEDE the sitting of the saints in judgment at the commencement of the Millennium...and must be cotemporary with a period in the Revelation of Saint John, prior to that of the battle of Armageddon..." ("A Combined View of the Prophecies," London: 1815)
And finally an imminent coming of Christ that would shield believers from the wrath to come was taught by William Cuninghame in a book published in 1813 and in revised form in 1817.
As a side note, both Frere and Cunnunghame are said to have attended the Albury conferences, so Darby must have been familiar with their views long before the alleged date of Margart MAcDonald's alleged vision.
This is nothing but a red herring, a statement meant to deceive. For it has absolutely zero bearing on the question.
I erred in saying that he "stated" that it was only an inferrence. He stated this inferrence as a conclusion, based on a single quotation that does not even contain any reference to the rapture. So his conclusion was based on an assumption about what the writer must have meant.
This was on page 6 of Tim Warner's paper titled "The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine." There he described J. N. Darby's account of his visit to MAcDonald's, church. Then he said that a John B. Cardale was present, but he gave no documentation whatsoever to back up this claim. He quoted this man as saying that Margaret commenced also speaking... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the Lord as her hope of deliverance, and was heard, speaking in a loud voice, denouncing the coming Judgments. He cited as the source of this quotation an article titled On the Extraordinary Manifestations in Port Glascow, by John B. Cardale, in The Morning Watch, Dec. 1830, pp. 870-873.
On the basis of this quotation, Tim Warner said, Therefore we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pretribulation rapture was was a subject of the prophecies among the MacDonalds and the Irvingite charismatics. But when we carefully examine the quotation given, we see that it does not even mention a pretribulation rapture. For the words that she directed the church to the Lord as her hope of deliverance from the judgments coming on the earth do not even so much as imply that she indicated that this deliverance would come about through a pretribulation rapture. So we see that, even if the quotation was accurate, and even if it was made in its proper context, the actual words in the quotation do not justify the stated conclusion. We should also notice that the quotation does not contain any allegation that this was even the same meeting as any attended by J. N. Darby.
Yes, this is what he said, and it is libel. And your repeated posting of a link to this article is a blatant violation of the rules of this forum.
This false claim was first made by a Samuel P. Tergelles in an article titled "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," which he published in 1864. In this article he said:
"I am not aware that there was any definite teaching (i.e. in the early days of the Plymouth movement) that there would be a secret rapture of the saints at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving's church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from holy scripture. but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God; whilst not holding the true doctrine of our Lord's incarnation in the same flesh and blood of His brethren, but without taint of sin."
It appears that Darby never heard of this article, for he never answered the charge. But it was not only Darby who did not know about it, his close associate William Kelly also never knew about it until after Darby (and also Tergelles) had died. But Kelly wrote a blistering response, titled "The Rapture of the Saints: who suggested it, or rather on what Scripture?" Kelly published this in his magazine, "The Bible Treasury," (New Series, vol. 4, p. 314-318)
He began by saying, "What must one think of a polemic who would extract an envenomed shaft to injure, if he could, the apostle Paul's preaching and teaching of 'salvation', from the utterance at Philippi of the maiden with a spirit of Python? 'These men are servants of the Most High God that announce to you the way of salvation.'" So he com[pared the ridiculousness of the charge to someone claiming that Paule got his doctrine of "the way of salvation" from this demon inspired woman.
In the body of the article, kelly said:
"Now it so happens that, during a visit to Plymouth in the summer of 1845, Mr. B. W. Newton told me that, many years before, Mr. Darby wrote to him a letter in which he said that a suggestion was made to him by Mr. T. Tweedy (a spiritual man and most devoted ex-clergyman among the Irish brethren), which to his mind quite cleared up the difficulty previously felt on this very question. No one was farther from lending an ear to the impious and profane voices of the quasi-inspired Irvingites than Mr. T., unless indeed it were J.N.D. himself who had closely investigated their pretensions and judged their peculiar heterodoxy on Christ's humanity as anti-christian and blasphemous. As to this anyone may satisfy himself by the Collected Writings XV, the first two articles of Doct. 4, with strictures in six other volumes, to which may be added, in a new edition, a longer paper that has been discovered since.
On the other hand Mr. Newton knew, as well or better than most at this time of day, such of the Newman St. oracles as reached ears and eyes outside. But he also knew that no serious brother in fellowship regarded them with less than horror, as emanating not from human excitement merely but from a demon accredited with the power of the Holy Spirit."
A little further down, Kelly added:
"But I willingly bear my testimony to Mr. N. that he never to me thought of attributing the source of the so-called doctrine, the rapture of the saints, to that seducing spirit. It was new, however, to hear that Mr. Tweedy, who died full of blessed labours in Demerara, was the one who first suggested, as a decisive proof from scripture, 2 Thess. 2:1, 2. I so implicitly believed in his telling me the truth as conveyed in Mr. D.'s letter to himself, that it did not occur to me to question Mr. D. about it. I knew the latter to be generous in acknowledging readily any debt of the kind he owed to other brethren, having experienced it in my own case and in that of Mr. Bellett, if not of more still. Indeed it was very touching to observe that one, to whose richly suggestive help so many were indebted, was himself so frank to own any fresh thought of value in another, and to manifest his simple-hearted pleasure, not only in hailing the accession but in adding to the evidence of its truth, as he so well could and did, while pointing out its importance.
Further, when Mr. N. named to me the disclosure of Mr. D.'s old letter, things had reached a very high temperature, and on no question more than the one before us. Mr. N. had issued the first edition of his "Thoughts on the Apocalypse" in parts, completed in 1844; and Mr. D. was at that time bringing out in parts his "Examination" of it, as able a volume as he ever wrote, not only in my judgment thoroughly subversive of the "Thoughts", but establishing on a sound basis the grand truths which were sought to be undermined."
Why is there so little actual evidence about where this doctrine came from? Dave MacPherson and Tim Warner see it as proof of "a cover-up." But that is pure assumption, based on a total lack of knowledge of the Plymouth brethren (Darby's group) mindset.
These people consider the scriptures themselves as the only source of truth, and as such essentially never "back up" their statements by quoting others who said the same thing. The thought of who first suggested an idea would be totally foreign to them. (Indeed, I never get into the history of Christian doctrines except to disprove false allegations about that history.)
So they defend their ideas based on scripture alone, and think that the notion of where they learned such-and-such wholly irrelevant. So they only rarely say anything about who gave them such-and-such an idea.
Thus, it is not at all surprising that Kelley never even asked Darby if it was true that he first got the idea from Mr T. Tweedy. For, until this false accusation came to light, the question would have been considered totally immaterial.
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BEABerean2 said:
Yes, it would be a very good idea for these people to have access to the actual historical documents.
But you have not provided such documents, except for links to a single paper by J. N. Darby and to Lacunza's book. All you have done is presented comments about what these documents allegedly contain.
If you were to bother to actually read the documents about the split between Darby and Newton, and later between Darby and Mueller, you would find that Coad was entirely mistaken in claiming that Darby's split with Newton was based on their eschatological differences. Coad based his claim on statements by Newton. But Newton did not want to admit what the split was actually about.
I find it very interesting that Coad openly expressed his disdain for dispensationalism. This plainly showed that he was not writing as a historian, but as an advocate. Further proof of his bias can be seen in the fact that he never referred to even one document by J. N. Darby, or by his associate William Kelly, the main chroniclers of this whole sad affair.
This is also the same for Tim Williams, who also got 100% of his information from sources antagonistic to both Darby and the Plymouth brethren.
You can find essentially everything written by this nineteenth century group online at:
http:www.stempublishing.com
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You can know the end from the beginning as well. God already revealed everything to us about what's ahead in the book of Genesis.
Once people understood this, they can begin to make the connection and truly understand 1 Corinthian 15:51-57 as this is the most misunderstood prophecy in the bible causing millions be in error of the rapture from my observation.
Here's a hint. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they instantly transformed from the spiritual realm to the natural realm in the twinkling of an eye and saw they were naked. Their eyes were open to the natural realm and became corruptible beings no longer able to see God once they left the Garden. Call me lazy but here.
Revelation in Relation to Genesis - Revelation Bible Commentary
The book of Revelation is essentially a sequel to the book of Genesis. They are the two bookends of the Bible. Genesis means beginnings and Genesis is from the Greek word apokalupsis and literally means an unveiling of something previously hidden. Thus, Genesis is the book of the worlds beginnings, while Revelation is the book of the unveiling of the worlds future. The great themes of the Bible start in Genesis and are progressively revealed throughout the Bible, culminating in the Revelation.
Genesis describes a sinless world in the Garden of Eden, made for man and placed under his care. Even though sin and the curse have interrupted for a time, Gods ultimate purpose cannot be defeated. All that He intended from the beginning will come to pass. The earth will be restored to its original perfection and then continue forever. Sin and the curse will be removed and death will be no more. The first three chapters of Genesis outline the introduction of sin into ADONAIs perfect creation, and the last three chapters of Revelation outline the cleansing of sin from the LORDs redeemed creation.
Temporary World (Genesis) Eternal World (Revelation)
Division of light and darkness (1:4) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No night there (21:25)
Division of land and sea (1:10) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more sea (21:1)
Creation of the sun and the moon (1:16) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No need for the sun and the moon (21:23)
First heavens and earth finished (2:1-3) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . New heaven and earth forever (21:1)
Mankind in a prepared garden (2:8-9) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mankind in a prepared city (21:2)
River flowing out of the garden (2:10) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . River flowing from Gods throne (22:1)
Tree of life in the midst of the garden (2:9) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Tree of life throughout the city (22:2)
Gold in the land (2:12) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gold in the city (21:21)
Aromatic resin and onyx stone (2:12) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Every kind of precious stone (21:19)
God walking in the Garden (3:8) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . God dwelling with His people (21:3)
The Spirit energizing (1:2) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The Spirit inviting (22:17)
Bride formed from her husband (2:21-23) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bride dressed for her husband (21:3)
Command to multiply (1:28) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nations of the saved (21:24)
Garden accessible to the Deceitful One (3:1-4). . . . . . . . . . . . . . City is closed to the deceitful (21:27)
Mankind in Gods image (1:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mankind in Gods presence (21:3)
Mankind works in the Garden (2:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mankind inherits the world (21:7)
Cursed World (Genesis) Redeemed World (Revelation)
Cursed ground (3:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more curse (22:3)
Daily sorrow (3:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more sorrow (21:4)
Sweat of the brow (3:19) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .No more tears (21:4)
Thorns and thistles (3:18) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more pain (21:4)
Eating the plants of the field (3:18) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Twelve crops of fruit (22:2)
Returning to the dust (3:19) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more death (21:4)
Garments of skin (3:21) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Fine linen, white and clean (19:14)
Satan opposing (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Satan banished (20:10)
Kept from the tree of life (3:24) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Access to the tree of life (22:14)
Banished from the Garden (3:23) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Free to enter the city (22:14)
Redeemer promised (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Redemption accomplished (5:9-10)
Only evil all the time (6:5) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Nothing impure, shameful or deceitful (21:27)
Seed of the woman (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Root of the Offspring of David (22:16)
Cherubim guarding (3:24) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Angels inviting (21:9)
Genesis describes a sinless world in the Garden of Eden, made for man and placed under his care. Even though sin and the curse have interrupted for a time, Gods ultimate purpose cannot be defeated. All that He intended from the beginning will come to pass. The earth will be restored to its original perfection and then continue forever. Sin and the curse will be removed and death will be no more. The first three chapters of Genesis outline the introduction of sin into ADONAIs perfect creation, and the last three chapters of Revelation outline the cleansing of sin from the LORDs redeemed creation.
Temporary World (Genesis) Eternal World (Revelation)
Division of light and darkness (1:4) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No night there (21:25)
Division of land and sea (1:10) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more sea (21:1)
Creation of the sun and the moon (1:16) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No need for the sun and the moon (21:23)
First heavens and earth finished (2:1-3) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . New heaven and earth forever (21:1)
Mankind in a prepared garden (2:8-9) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mankind in a prepared city (21:2)
River flowing out of the garden (2:10) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . River flowing from Gods throne (22:1)
Tree of life in the midst of the garden (2:9) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Tree of life throughout the city (22:2)
Gold in the land (2:12) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gold in the city (21:21)
Aromatic resin and onyx stone (2:12) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Every kind of precious stone (21:19)
God walking in the Garden (3:8) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . God dwelling with His people (21:3)
The Spirit energizing (1:2) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The Spirit inviting (22:17)
Bride formed from her husband (2:21-23) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Bride dressed for her husband (21:3)
Command to multiply (1:28) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nations of the saved (21:24)
Garden accessible to the Deceitful One (3:1-4). . . . . . . . . . . . . . City is closed to the deceitful (21:27)
Mankind in Gods image (1:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mankind in Gods presence (21:3)
Mankind works in the Garden (2:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Mankind inherits the world (21:7)
Cursed World (Genesis) Redeemed World (Revelation)
Cursed ground (3:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more curse (22:3)
Daily sorrow (3:17) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more sorrow (21:4)
Sweat of the brow (3:19) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .No more tears (21:4)
Thorns and thistles (3:18) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more pain (21:4)
Eating the plants of the field (3:18) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Twelve crops of fruit (22:2)
Returning to the dust (3:19) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . No more death (21:4)
Garments of skin (3:21) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Fine linen, white and clean (19:14)
Satan opposing (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Satan banished (20:10)
Kept from the tree of life (3:24) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Access to the tree of life (22:14)
Banished from the Garden (3:23) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Free to enter the city (22:14)
Redeemer promised (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Redemption accomplished (5:9-10)
Only evil all the time (6:5) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Nothing impure, shameful or deceitful (21:27)
Seed of the woman (3:15) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Root of the Offspring of David (22:16)
Cherubim guarding (3:24) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Angels inviting (21:9)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH5v-5X1rI
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"Once people understood this, they can begin to make the connection and truly understand 1 Corinthian 15:51-57 as this is the most misunderstood prophecy in the bible causing millions be in error of the rapture from my observation."
Explain further .... what is misunderstood and what is the error?
Explain further .... what is misunderstood and what is the error?
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Joseph Mede (1586-1638) wrote "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776) Again, in 1674 Thomas Collier wrote against the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture, thus indicating that someone must have been teaching it at that time. At about the same time, Peter Jurieu wrote somewhat indistinctly about a pre-trib rapture. And in 1700, John AsGill wrote that "Man may be translated from hence into that Eternal Life, without passing through Death." So this subject was under discussion in the latter part of the reformation period.
Brother BW,
Your reference above shows that you always see what you want to see.
There is no pretrib rapture in this work by Mede.
It fits perfectly with the Saints being gathered at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming, when He will pour out His wrath on the ungodly.
Using Darby disciple William Kelly as a source of information about Darby should be suspect to all of us.
There was good reason for he and Darby to disconnect themselves from the teachings of the Irvingites.
Shortly before his death, Irving got himself into trouble while speaking of the "human" nature of Christ. Most of his day considered it heretical.
We know from his paper of 1829, that Darby was reading the Irvingite journal "The Morning Watch" because he makes a reference to it in his paper.
Therefore, he would have been well aware of the "Secret Rapture" teaching found in the Sept. 1830 issue.
As far as the paper written by Pastor Tim Warner, the end of the paper is full of the historical documents that fully support the conclusion made by Pastor Warner.
I would advise those who want to validate it's credibility to read the entire paper and judge it based on what is presented.
Attempts to disconnect Darbyism from the Irvingites continue to the present day.
Edward Irving's Preliminary Discourse which was published along with his English translation of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by the Jesuit, Manuel Lacunza contain much of the key doctrine of Dispensational Theology. He taught the doctrine at the Albury Conference.
Dr. Charles Ryrie stated that Darby became interested in prophecy at one of the Albury conferences.
These are facts that cannot be erased from the history books.
Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ
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- May 15, 2005
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You are correct in saying that any paper written by Darby or by hus close followers is "suspect," in regard to the question at hand. But what you choose to ignore is that any paper written by one of his opponents has just as much reason to be "suspect" as those.
The only way to come to a rational resolution to such a dispute is to search out all the historical evidence available. This, neither you nor any of your sources of information (other than, perhaps Dave MacPherson) have done. And Dave MAcpherson conclusively proved his dishonesty in this matter by pubkishing an entire book claiming to prove that Darby "covered up" his visit to MacDonald's church. As his paper was very thoroughly researched, it is inconceivable that he was unaware that Darby not only did not cover this visit up, but openly wrote about it.
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David MacPherson became disgruntled with his "Christianity" and then proceeded to hoax his Darby folly
This guy is simply a known fraud
This guy is simply a known fraud
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Numerous eyewitnesses of the Irvingite and Brethren history during the 19th century have written giving credit to Margaret Macdonald as the original source of the "Secret Rapture".
Below are just a few examples.
British lawyer, Robert Baxter Narrative of Facts 1833
Brethren scholar, Samuel Tregelles Christian Annotator 1855
Robert Norton, Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port-Glasgow 1861
John Peter Lange, Commentary, First Thessalonians 1871
Edward Miller, The History and Doctrines of Irvingism 1878
Thomas Croskery, The Plymouth Brethren 1872
William Reid, Plymouth Brethrenism Unveiled and Refuted 1880
George Stokes, The Contemporary Review 1885
Those who would like to judge the validity of Dave MacPherson's work for themselves can find his book "The Rapture Plot" at Amazon.com.
The documents revealed by his research have brought tremendous personal attacks upon MacPherson, from many Dispensationalists.
Should we be surprised???
The Rapture Plot by Dave MacPherson
http://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Plot-...d=1424969014&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Rapture+Plot
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"The documents revealed by his research have brought tremendous personal attacks upon MacPherson, from many Dispensationalists."
And rightly so .... anyone that concocts a ruse like this man needs to be exposed
Where is he today? .... no one pays any attention and should not be giving him and notarity
And rightly so .... anyone that concocts a ruse like this man needs to be exposed
Where is he today? .... no one pays any attention and should not be giving him and notarity
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So... after even personally admitting that at least two of the earlier writers taught a rapture before the tribulation, you continue to endorse a book that insists it was never taught before Margaert MacDonald's alleged vision?
If so, then you are willfully practicing fraud.
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BW
The question is not really about the obvious ruse of the Darbyite fabricators
It is rather, why do they do it?
What is the motive?
The question is not really about the obvious ruse of the Darbyite fabricators
It is rather, why do they do it?
What is the motive?
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Brother BW,
I stated that Morgan Edwards wrote a paper while in seminary suggesting the possibility of a pretrib removal. At the time, neither he nor his professor considered the idea to be a serious possibility.
Someone labeled as PseudoEphraem may have done so. The original Syriac version does not contain the passage, but the later Latin version does.
Counting this unknown person and unknown source as one of your two sources is on ice about a millimeter thick, but I have no doubt you will attempt to walk out onto it.
However, the version taught by the Irvingites which came to be known to them and others as the "Secret Rapture" where believers will be whisked away silently, in the blink of an eye, has clearly been traced to Margaret Macdonald.
Many pretrib promoters like Dr. Tommy Ice and author Tim LaHaye have often quoted her vision in an attempt to show no connection to Darby, but they conveniently left out several lines of her vision.
There is no evidence that Darby got his "Secret Rapture" doctrine from Morgan Edwards or PseudoEphraem.
Dr. Tommy Ice's claim that Darby came up with it on his own while recovering from a riding accident in 1827 will not hold water either, based on Darby's own paper from 1829 written from a historicist, amill viewpoint.
Darby, J. N., Reflections (1829), Prophetic No. 1
Reflections upon the Prophetic Inquiry and the views advanced in it
However, there is a tremendous amount of evidence from Irvingites and Brethren stating that Darby's version came from Margaret Macdonald or the Irvingites in general.
Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Nice try.
You may want to take it a little easy on the "practicing fraud" label unless you can show some evidence of "online discussions" from the years 1967 or 1968, during the time of the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty.
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