work, Work, WORK!!

[JM]

Do you folks hear a lot of sermons that focus on keeping you busy with "works?" I'm not against it, just hear a lot about how important your works are. A buddy of mine left church because he felt he wasn't a Christian based on his works. Very sad.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[abacabb3]

Do you folks hear a lot of sermons that focus on keeping you busy with "works?" I'm not against it, just hear a lot about how important your works are. A buddy of mine left church because he felt he wasn't a Christian based on his works. Very sad.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Actually, I never hear it which is problematic. The Bible is very concerned about it, and I think Protestantism has devolved into whiny "don't judge me and my Christian freedoms, I'll do what I see fit!" This is hardly a Biblical ethic and something that is a real disservice to Christians who should be taught that we are saved by grace, through faith, not works that no one can boast, in order to do the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us.

 

[JM]

Actually, I never hear it which is problematic. The Bible is very concerned about it, and I think Protestantism has devolved into whiny "don't judge me and my Christian freedoms, I'll do what I see fit!" This is hardly a Biblical ethic and something that is a real disservice to Christians who should be taught that we are saved by grace, through faith, not works that no one can boast, in order to do the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us.

The issue is pietism vs. biblical virtue. To say you must base the security of your salvation on the avoidance of “fill in the blank” is the very opposite of biblical virtue and what I believe Jesus pointed out in the Pharisees’. Virtue, and I could be wrong, is an inward locution toward moral “good” and the “good” is defined by scripture. I believe Paul mentions the longing to perform good works in Romans 7. The mere outward performance of “good,” if not grounded in Christ centred faith, is piety. So…the “good” works we are to perform are intrinsically place by the Holy Spirit. Our salvation shouldn’t be judged on our pietism and we should have no confidence in our piety. Even the small virtue we possess is God working in us “both to will and do his good pleasure.”

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[abacabb3]

Reading the CHurch Fathers, which the later you go from the ancient church the more pietism you find, it is apparent that they would vomit at how women dress to church these days and doctrines such as "you pray 'the prayer' once and you are definitely saved."

IN all honesty, we should want to do the good things the Scripture admonshes us to do. I was just in Cambodia and my wife wore a head covering and they freaked out. Apparently, some sort of Korean cult has been making inroads and they are legalists and wear head coverings. So, after church, we apologized and explained why my wife was wearing a hear covering, and he said, "But, you don't need to wear one to be saved."

How did Christianity get reduced to "if it doesn't save me, then it is not worth doing" ? No good works save us, only Christ's work on the cross does. However, that does not mean it is bad to desire to live obediently. In fact, it honors God.

 

[cubanito]

1- One MUST get the order correct: the free unmerited power of salvation comes FIRST, and is in no way caused or achieved by good works. Without stressing this we have added works to the Gospel and are in perdition. Salvation is adamantly Sola Fide, Sola Christos.

2- AFTER there is genuine salvation, fruits will follow. They may be few, or they may be many, but a totally fruitless conversion does not happen. Look even at the thief on the cross who converted. At first he cursed Christ along with the other thief and the crowd. Then, after conversion, that thief defended Christ publicly despite the agonuy of the Cross. Fruit did happen even in that short time.

3- While ONLY GOD Truly knows who is and is not converted Absolutely; He has given us a fairly reliable, though imperfect, guide: fruits. EVERYONE has faith in something. As we can not see faith, we can not ascertain Absolutely if it is Saving Faith or forgery. Very many people THINK they have Saving Faith and do not at all; so even the very person can not be sure for "the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?"
We then have the imperfect but fairly reliable rule of examining the fruits. Does this person's actions support the ASSUMPTION that they have True Saving Faith? Our assesment does NOT guarantee salvation or not, not even our assesment of ourselves. It is however a fairly reliable guide. So what does that do to the perserverance of the saints? Or asked another way, why am I 100% certain I am Truly reconciled with God and NEVER ever need worry about condemnation? Well, I can't give a good answer.

As to how far to stress any one of the 3 above, that is more style than substance. Most of today's Churches stress Grace too much for my taste BUT it is my TASTE nothing more.

JR

 

[JM]

The early church, like the church in our day, suffered from extremes in theology. The early church wrongly placed emphasis on works and even confused the nature of baptism. The church today fails to preach virtue, replacing it with legalisms.

 

[gord44]

The early church, like the church in our day, suffered from extremes in theology. The early church wrongly placed emphasis on works and even confused the nature of baptism. The church today fails to preach virtue, replacing it with legalisms.

An interesting observation and one I agree with. People like to think the church of early Christians was unified, but in truth it appears it was a fragmented mess, with beliefs in, as you said, the extremes.

 

[BryanW92]

An interesting observation and one I agree with. People like to think the church of early Christians was unified, but in truth it appears it was a fragmented mess, with beliefs in, as you said, the extremes.

I read "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" last year and was astonished to learn just how fragmented the early church was, and how extreme those fragments were. As you said, people try to portray it as the Acts 2 "all of one accord" church, but it really went off the rails as soon as the apostles died off.

 

[JM]

Compare the early church to the church in suffering areas today. They have little use for deep, doctrinal or heady discussions. The ECFs had to deal with practical or pastoral issues, it wasn't until much latter, that we see a systematic approach to theology.

 

[abacabb3]

The early church, like the church in our day, suffered from extremes in theology. The early church wrongly placed emphasis on works and even confused the nature of baptism. The church today fails to preach virtue, replacing it with legalisms.

When I reflect on this, it makes me think that a lot more people that "have it wrong" will be in heaven than we think. People vocalize patent untruths, but somewhere deep down they really now Christ alone saves them, and God is gracious in looking past everything else as long as that faith in Him is there,

 

[abacabb3]

I read "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" last year and was astonished to learn just how fragmented the early church was, and how extreme those fragments were. As you said, people try to portray it as the Acts 2 "all of one accord" church, but it really went off the rails as soon as the apostles died off.

I made the thread on 2 Clement here which seems to show that a generation after all the Apostles (but possibly John) died off, the problem of Judaizing mostly gave way to antinomianism. There is very good reason to believe that all of John's epistles, Peer's second epistles, James and Judes epistles were all writing against the same crowd that 2 Clement was. So, of course, you get all of these admonishents towards good works which are generally not emphasized by Paul, because in his time the big problems tended to be Judaizing and false asceticism.

 

[BryanW92]

When I reflect on this, it makes me think that a lot more people that "have it wrong" will be in heaven than we think. People vocalize patent untruths, but somewhere deep down they really now Christ alone saves them, and God is gracious in looking past everything else as long as that faith in Him is there,

I agree. If Jesus had intended for there to be a set of rules that must be followed to the letter, then he would have given us a set of rules with everything spelled out to the letter.

 

[gord44]

I always found the Sermon on the Mount to be Jesus' 'manifesto' of sorts. Pretty much everything he wants you to do is in that sermon.

 

[JM]

When I reflect on this, it makes me think that a lot more people that "have it wrong" will be in heaven than we think. People vocalize patent untruths, but somewhere deep down they really now Christ alone saves them, and God is gracious in looking past everything else as long as that faith in Him is there,

Completely agree.

Consider the recent beheadings of Coptic Christians. In a free world where we can discuss theology openly I would charge them with a watered down Gospel, a near miss to the Gospel…but would I be willing to die for Christ as they have?

That doesn’t relieve us of our duty to speak the truth in love now, just that we must consider the context.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[abacabb3]

I have thought about this when praying for the Assyrian Christians (specifically that God may bring them good teaching as well as sustain them through trial). Further, when I reflect on the Vietnamese martyrs (Vietnamese Roman Catholics experienced perhaps the most brutal persecution I have ever heard of in the 1800s), it really makes you wonder if they will be up there with us.

After all, Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted to death by the Nazis and the USSR...for a lie. So, I give it to God to judge, for we are all at His mercy.

 

[JM]

I have thought about this when praying for the Assyrian Christians (specifically that God may bring them good teaching as well as sustain them through trial). Further, when I reflect on the Vietnamese martyrs (Vietnamese Roman Catholics experienced perhaps the most brutal persecution I have ever heard of in the 1800s), it really makes you wonder if they will be up there with us.

After all, Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted to death by the Nazis and the USSR...for a lie. So, I give it to God to judge, for we are all at His mercy.

I think we can pray for God's mercy on them and the persecution stop...but JW's? They deny the Sonship of Jesus Christ. That's a different set of problems.

Can one deny the Holy Trinity and be a Christian? I don't think so.

jm

 

[JM]

Maybe I'm being too weak kneed in my earlier responses.


I do not believe this fella will be in heaven.

 

[abacabb3]

I think we can pray for God's mercy on them and the persecution stop...but JW's? They deny the Sonship of Jesus Christ. That's a different set of problems.

Can one deny the Holy Trinity and be a Christian? I don't think so.

jm

That was my point. Heretics will die for a lie too.

Though, I always wonder what role Christology has in salvation. No one expects an 11 year old to have perfect Christology, yet most people don't argue that 11 year olds cannot be saved.

I will say definitively that JWs are not lost because of bad Christology...they don't have a Gospel. They believe they are saved by their works. As do the Mormons. Anyone who says that three minutes ain't enough time to place faith in Christ and be saved don't know the Gospel. Period.

 

[JM]

The historic faith is Trinitarian.

 

[abacabb3]

Of course, the question is when children are saved, are they perfect trinitarians?