Founders: Family Tree within WOF and examining Who Founded WOF in all expressions?

[hhodgson]

Gxg... For starters. Forgive me about the name (Gabe) I used in addressing you in (Post 25) that is not correct. Thinking back on where I got it from to my recollection would be on CARM. I accidently found CARM some three years ago before landing here on WOF. I am not sure if any one person or several may have addressed you with that name. What got me to use it was that someone incorrectly thought your name was "Greg" and used it a few times before you corrected him on the forum. So, in my post to you, I purposely used "Gabe" so he would see it and get it right. Here, afterall... we were both wrong.

I think you are doing a masterful job on WOF history. I admit that I was wondering from your OP where this would end up going and how it would turn out. I stand by my comments in (Post 25), but after reading now faith's comment in (Post 30) "I tell all of you here your going down the wrong road with this." I tend to agree with him at this point. After reviewing (Post 38 & 39), I was sure of it.

You guys can continue on if you want But I would highly suggest for you to consider moving this thread to a more proper place on the forum, if there is one. IMHO... It's gotten out of balance. Just saying...

I pretty well jumped in when you mentioned several names of possible founders and the intermixing of them in the WOF movement. Several of them I listen to or have listened to. Some passed away. The ones that really interested me the most were Lester Sumrall and R. W. Schambach. Sumrall was mentioned several times in you posts. We visited his church in South Bend, Indiana... and living in NW Ohio, I could pick up (LeSEA) ministry on Channel 46 in which I have watched him for several years. Schambach, would annually come to our church and minister. He passed just two weeks after his last visit. I really miss them both.

Gxg... Please consider my thoughts on this... "for the sake of Love and fellowship." (Quoted by Troy in another thread)

I thank all you guys for being my friends...

Peace...











​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think a definition of "founder" is in line.

I think men like Smith Wigglesworth and William Seymour qualify as part-founders. We simply wouldn't be here without men such as these. They helped to move the power of the Holy Spirit to the front of man's consciousness.

I do feel, as I've said to Troy, that the foundation of Word of Faith was in place in the sixties, perhaps early seventies. So, of course, men like Hagin, Robert and Sumrall certainly need to be listed, with Hagin being the one who embodied the whole of Word/Faith.

I do think it should be noted that part of WOF being developed was going through shifts where foundations were re-made - thus meaning that what was foundational for one generation (seen as WOF) does not mean that new generations (seen as WOF) had the same foundation built upon when in another era. And thus, while others like Hagin or Sumrall and Robert may be the foundation for the first phase of the Faith movement, others who rose up are seen as the "foundation" for the next phase of its evolution - be it in a singular sense or in a pluralistic sense when dealing with multiple off-shoots who came off from other branches that connected with larger trunks originally seen as the root.

In example, as much as others may have valued Hagin, other generations who led to massive movments beginning may have said things similar to him - but they did not reference him in their learning (due to not knowing) nor did they grow the same. What occurred with others like Larry Lea is amazing when seeing the Prayer Movements he started in regards to shaping people of faith to be close to the Lord and leading to the prayer movement in the U.S booming in a lot of ways...despite where he had later battles that caused controversy (during his time travelling with Morris Cerullo).

He was one of the people who inspired the pastor of the church I grew up in to begin focusing in heavily on prayer in the 80s/90s

• Articles and Teachings - The Altar International House of Prayer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQD7PYT2rGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjkc5Z7gl-M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hePiylqRpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh3FhkZMfys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS7jShlpk1Y

With Dr. Larry Lea, he was actually with Kenneth Copeland at Southwest Believer's Convention

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qHKJ9Tiwaw

..And yet just because he may've said some of the same things as Hagin or other older leaders doesn't mean that Hagin/the older leaders were his "foundation" - the Holy Spirit can speak to anyone listening and there's no copyright on God's Truth since the Lord can share similar or same revelations to anyone he wishes and yet for each person shared they will be seen as the Patriarch of the movements flowing from them.....and any other movements preceeding them that stated similar, it will be seen as a matter of God connecting others together rather than a matter of one side taking full credit for another's development.

As another noted to me, it was not as if the Wright Brothers were the first person to think of making an airplane - but they were the first to make it work...and really, the first ones who were KNOWN for doing it. Had someone else had the idea and did it while getting coverage, history would show differently - but the idea itself was acted upon/seen in that time frame at the exact time it did (like what occurred in regards to the Chinese inventing the Printing Press way before Guttenburg did but not using it in the same manner and not having circumstances develop there like it was in Europe that made the Printing Press be more revolutionary to Europeans than it was to them).

Likewise, foundational concepts in WOF may have been articulated by other older leaders - but there's really no way of saying that they were the ONLY ones capable of it or the only ones living it out because many others knew of it. Some may have known on it and the Lord chose to reveal it to their descendants later on in a different era while showing early on to others an idea before it took further development with more people - no different than a baton race.....like Hebrews 11 talks on with the Hall of Faith

Hebrews 11:39
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg... For starters. Forgive me about the name (Gabe) I used in addressing you in (Post 25) that is not correct. Thinking back on where I got it from to my recollection would be on CARM. I accidently found CARM some three years ago before landing here on WOF. I am not sure if any one person or several may have addressed you with that name. What got me to use it was that someone incorrectly thought your name was "Greg" and used it a few times before you corrected him on the forum. So, in my post to you, I purposely used "Gabe" so he would see it and get it right. Here, afterall... we were both wrong.
​

Shalom H

It's not a problem with the name "Gabe" if there was a slip-up. The person who called me that often (even though I noted I did not prefer it) was known as Tbeachhead - and I think another critic known as YP - but outside of them, it didn't come up that much if at all. Again, my apologies if what I said came off wrong since I wasn't in any way angry or thinking forgiveness needed to be sought - I just don't use my full name/real name (or even shortened version of it) online ...hence, why we have monikers (unless others don't care to use them as much ).

I think you are doing a masterful job on WOF history.

Thanks for letting me know and appreciate the encouragement....

I admit that I was wondering from your OP where this would end up going and how it would turn out. I stand by my comments in (Post 25), but after reading now faith's comment in (Post 30) "I tell all of you here your going down the wrong road with this." I tend to agree with him at this point. After reviewing (Post 38 & 39), I was sure of it.

On that specific point, I do think there should be a noting directly on context and how conversation starts. For when not seeing what was said in the setting it occurred in - or staying faithful to the rules noted in the OP - it does make things difficult.

The purpose of the OP is to discuss WOF founders - who they are and why they are considered important in what they brought to the table. It was asked that no shots being thrown across at others if choosing to come into the thread - and being respectful to one another makes a world of difference.

I do think there's a big issue of communication that happens when talking on what other founders of the Faith Movement (and the ones influencing them ) noted and coming into conversation already determined NOT to listen to what others say for what is stated - and this occurred directly when examining what Dr. Fred Price said and why others in the movement (within the African-American community) consider him to be one of the founders when making the movement relevant to that community and addressing concerns of culture that other leaders in the WOF Community would not handle because of pre-existing issues. Other leaders who are in the movement - including Lester Sumrall and Jack Hayford among others - have said the same and it's why there are differences of thought.

That's an issue of fact that can't be escaped if seeing actual WOF History.

If someone disagrees with what another says, then I have no problem with the disagreement - but to say the topic itself is something that cannot be discussed is a problem since it doesn't deal with addressing history. Moreover, when a side note on a topic becomes the dominant theme even when others say "That was not the point", that is when there's an opportunity to listen respectfully in saying "If I hear your heart, this is what you mean...correct?" or ask "What did you mean when you said this?" or "Why did this WOF leader state the following?"....if really wishing to understand the social influences behind what others say and why that impacts history. If issues such as the political stances behind WOF leaders (as has been discussed before - like talking on why Copeland chose Mike Huckabee over Barack Obama) or talking on what WOF Leaders had more concern for medical examinations than other or why certain WOF leaders were more concerned with missions than others (such as with T.L Osborn) - it's fair game and should be approached respectfully.

However, in the exchange between now-faith and victoryword, it seemed to become a big issue of reacting to things which were never said - and for both of them, the goal should be to be gracious to one another even if not understanding or agreeing. This has occurred before between both of them in other threads and it was something I noted from the OP should NOT happen here.

Claiming others supporting the reasons why certain WOF Leaders are seen as founders becomes problematic when saying things as were stated earlier (i.e. insinuating that God's Word does not deal with racial issues or claiming of others that one supports "Al Sharpton" /doesn't understand Native Americans because of speaking on racial issues - that's NO small issue when one has both White, Native American and Black ancestry and others who are not Black note the same things and yet don't fit the accusation).

Claiming the motives of others - as nowfaith did with victoryword - or saying another is ignorant (as it seemed victoryword did - was not necessary -..and if both sides choose to engage in that, I cannot stop it. I can only keep in mind what God said in the Word:

James 1:19-20

Listening and Doing
19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.​

And for others:

Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret—it leads only to evil. (Psalm 37:8)

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult. (Proverbs 12:16)

Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)

A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless. (Proverbs 14:16)

A quick-tempered man does foolish things, and a crafty man is hated. (Proverbs 14:17)

A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly. (Proverbs 14:29)

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. (Proverbs 15:1)

A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel. (Proverbs 15:18)

Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes a city. (Proverbs 16:32)

A man of knowledge uses words with restraint, and a man of understanding is even-tempered. (Proverbs 17:27)

It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel. (Proverbs 20:3)

Do not say, "I'll pay you back for this wrong!" Wait for the LORD, and he will deliver you. (Proverbs 20:22)

Mockers stir up a city, but wise men turn away anger. (Proverbs 29:8)

A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control. (Proverbs 29:11)

An angry man stirs up dissension, and a hot-tempered one commits many sins. (Proverbs 29:22)

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, "Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment." But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment ... first go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:21-24)

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:21)

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions. (Galatians 5:19-20)

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. (Ephesians 4:26-7)

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (Ephesians 4:29-32)

Let your gentleness be evident to all. (Philippians 4:5)

But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. (Colossians 3:8)

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. (2 Timothy 2:24)

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)​

These are things I am keeping in mind and have sought to keep in mind during exchanges - and that is something the Word of God holds us all to in every one of our responses.

Thus, for anyone in the thread, if being here, there needs to be a willingness to listen/respond in maturity if actually discussing sensitive topics pertaining to the actual history of what happens in WOF - and when others go off, there needs to be a willingness to actually listen.

You guys can continue on if you want But I would highly suggest for you to consider moving this thread to a more proper place on the forum, if there is one. IMHO... It's gotten out of balance. Just saying...

I understand the sentiments and I appreciate them. Nonetheless, as long as there is not a willingness for others to do what was noted before with the rules in the OP (as well as a willingness to respond respectfully - agreeing to disagree agreeably ) - then more of the same will occur. Attacking others is never appropriate - but the same goes for making acccusations of others based on things that they NEVER said (as was the case when a brief mention of not understanding racial sensitivites as other leaders in WOF pointed out is made out to be a matter of saying no other group experiences racism or that one does not have white friends and as list of numerous other scenarions no one held to).

People choose to walk in balance - or not. Moreover, if one wants to discuss balance, then one needs to give a demonstration of what that looks like. If "balance" is taken to mean "We can discuss WOF history - but not the comments of what other WOF founders said concerning topics I'm bothered by (i.e. politics, reform, science, etc.) , then that's not balance (IMHO) and thus not a real discussion.

I pretty well jumped in when you mentioned several names of possible founders and the intermixing of them in the WOF movement. Several of them I listen to or have listened to. Some passed away. The ones that really interested me the most were Lester Sumrall and R. W. Schambach. Sumrall was mentioned several times in you posts. We visited his church in South Bend, Indiana... and living in NW Ohio, I could pick up (LeSEA) ministry on Channel 46 in which I have watched him for several years. Schambach, would annually come to our church and minister. He passed just two weeks after his last visit. I really miss them both.

Cool to hear, as I can definitely relate to what it is that you noted - I never connected as well with Schambach - as I was always more connected with Oral Roberts more so.....but Sumrall had a stronger influence.

Gxg... Please consider my thoughts on this... "for the sake of Love and fellowship." (Quoted by Troy in another thread)

Of course. Likewise, as it concerns what I noted earlier, I do hope you can consider what I have said - and what the Word keeps in mind with dialogue.

I thank all you guys for being my friends...

Peace...

Shalom

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think a definition of "founder" is in line.

I think men like Smith Wigglesworth and William Seymour qualify as part-founders. We simply wouldn't be here without men such as these. They helped to move the power of the Holy Spirit to the front of man's consciousness.

I do feel, as I've said to Troy, that the foundation of Word of Faith was in place in the sixties, perhaps early seventies. So, of course, men like Hagin, Robert and Sumrall certainly need to be listed, with Hagin being the one who embodied the whole of Word/Faith.

Forgot to mention earlier the chart I came across years ago but was only able to find recently - as seen here:

​

I was very glad for the charts here since they do a very good job of showing the ways that the Faith movement both influenced and was influenced by other camps that were convergent with it in sharing similar influences....like people such as John Wimber referencing some of the same spiritual giants Hagin did like Wigglesworth and John G. Lake. John Wimber (of the book "Power Evangelism" and one of the people inspiring others to go out/do evangelism involving healing and prophetic ministry and "Healing Rooms" in the same manner as John G. Lake in his work in Africa and other places around the world...echoing the work of other healing revivalists such as Smith Wigglesworth) - he was one of the key people I grew up hearing when seeing other movements that I had friends/family come from like the Brownsville Revival - and, for that matter, what happened with International House of Prayer and others who were Reformed Charismatics (like Brother Sam Storms (who has spoken on/noted for support for others like Gloria Copeland and defended the Faith Movement as well at certain points when it comes to the concept of Divine Healing) or with other Neo-Charismatic/"Third Wave" groups like the Vineyard Church or folks like Jack Deere of the book "Surprised by the Power of the Spirit" and "Surprised by the Voice of God" - all of them intersecting with WOF but having roots in the camps flowing from Lester Sumrall more so....

And for others that stood out, here are some from the perspective of what others felt in the Latter Rain time - even though many advocating that do not necessarily believe in the concept of the Rapture which was taught in differing ways elsewhere....

​

 

[now faith]

Gxg,

Thanks for your posts and the info. I apologize if I have allowed myself to get distracted into the usual immaturity, ignorance and foolishness that is sometimes displayed on the forums. Anyway, some very interesting stuff. Some of it I have been aware of but you have also given some new info. Thanks. Blessings to you.[/QUOTE


Forgive my crude analogy.

 

[now faith]

I

That said, with Hagin, I don't see how he was the full embodiment of the Faith Message when others were doing the same as him and more LONG before. This is why I go back to Lester Sumrall - and of course, Fredrick Price in what his impact was in taking Hagin in his message and further developing it for Blacks in ways that Hagin did not seem to consider.

delete comment

 

[Scottmcc1]

Gxg
I have known, as a white man, that Dake had some, racial comments in his book God's Plan for Man. I bought mine in 1981. For me I just throw out these comments, and don't pay any attention to them. But will Blacks be offended if I refer to the Dake Bible? I refer to it at least once a week in my studies.

Love is the key ingredient of Christians. John 13:34,35 and for Christians to avoid each other because of race is a horrible mark against the church. The solution I see is for us to work together.

Martin Luther said things against the Jews. I don't reject other things he says because of that, but I do keep in mind his short comings. Our view of past leaders should take this view of guarded acceptance.

Thanks for all this history, I will refer to this in the future.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You have asked me to refrain from what you consider off topic from the other post.

Your statement on Hagin,is the topic.

Hagin taught on Faith and bible principles,not one time did I hear him teach a proprietary message for whites blacks,or any other creed or color.

Was it his commission to develop a message for blacks?

Nowfaith..

Respectfully, as said earlier in #22 , the reason it was noted that context was avoided was because Hagin (whom Price referenced often in support) was addressed by Price when it came to Hagin's excessive use of the Dakes Study Bible - with Dake being a well known racist on several levels (when it came to his advocacy of segregation and the forbidding of Interracial relationships as well as his claims of blacks being "cursed" as Sons of Ham/slavery of Blacks in the U.S as evidence of that - all within his study Bible). Those things are far from Biblical and it's why Price called it out since Blacks overall would not accept those things and many whites/other ethnic groups also noted directly where they agreed with blacks in both resisting it and noting that the Faith Message needed to be purified from that in order for more to accept it lest those other issues taint the message.

Of course Hagin taught Faith Principles - but he did NOT address issues which the Word called for when it came to speaking out against racial injustice done in the name of Christ. Seeing that blacks were not a dominant group in his sessions for sometime due to the fact that he did not specifically focus on them/their specific needs, it was Price who made others in the Black community familar with Hagin - and it was Price who contexualized the message/Faith Principles so that Blacks would be more accepting of it rather than alienated. That is the background of the history with why Price is seen as one of the founders....why Price, a student of Hagin, is frequently credited with introducing Word of Faith emphases to black audiences prior to being joined by other black ministers such as Leroy Thompson and Creflo/Tami Dollar. - with Dollar connecting with Copeland and taking a more visible role in the mid-1990s after Hagin Jr. and Price had a fall-out due to Hagin Jr. making racial comments in which Hagin Jr condemned miscegenation..

Hagin (Dad Hagin) is known to have met with Price after Price heard of his teachings/read a couple of his books - with Hagin preaching at some of Price's churches and then becoming Hagin's disciple and saying "I am Brother Hagin's 'Black Child' ...and I am proud to be one. One of the most beautiful things about Hagin's ministry is that it has a world outreach. It has also reached the Black community in the United States. I think it's beautiful what God has done in a very quiet way through this man, his faithfulness, his love and his generosity of heart in sharing the Word of God. I took that Word of God and in 10 years we've grown from 300 people to 13, 230 people at Crenshaw Christian Center in Ingelwood, California"

Price's desire was to minister to Black Americans through his television ministry and church - with Betty Price noting "It's a church of all races, but naturally, with our being black, we draw more black people." Due to Price's social activism in the Watts district of Los Angelas and his influence on other Word of Faith Ministers (as well as his television ministry), he became a very key figure in the movement - but although Price maintained a close relationship with Hagin, there was a split between the families after the controversy of race erupted in the 90s - specifically with Hagin Jr. teaching that parents who didn't want their children dating others of differing ethnicities should teach those values at an early age and claiming it wasn't racist for parents to teach their children to be against interracial dating - with Hagin Jr. saying it was okay for his kids to have African-Americans as friends but not involved with them romantically. Price discovered what Hagin Jr taught after other Black WOF ministers told him on it - and Price confronted Hagin Jr, with Hagin Jr apologizing to him....but Price said it was not enough and wanted Hagin Jr. to renounce the racist views he advocated by preaching against the teaching. The lack of preaching against the teaching (as it is INDEED against God's Word) and Hagin Sr. taking the side of his son rather than going with what the Word of God said is what led Price to do his series on Race and also noting directly that racism begins in the home (emphasizing that of course he did not think all whites were racist and that some blacks had developed a "reactive racism" toward whites) and noted that the issue wasn't interracial dating alone since his focus was on the underlying assumption behind it that says blacks are inherently inferior to whites ). Consequently, Price recieved less airtime as a result while others such as Dr. Creflo Dollar ended up rising in prominence due to not speaking on the issue....but Price's actions helped in ensuring further development in the Faith Movement.
....and later, with the rise of Keith Butler who became a friend of Hagin, there was some level of healing that occurred for many Blacks in the WOF Movement since Butler developed more WOF Centers on his side and reached other audiences.

For reference on the history of developments within the Word of Faith movement as it concerns the entire story, one can go here:

• It's a New Day: Race and Gender in the Modern Charismatic Movement By Scott Billingsley

• Watch This!: The Ethics and Aesthetics of Black Televangelism By Jonathan L. Walto

History is history, Bruh And as sad as it was to see how things went down, those factors cannot be avoided if dealing faithfully with what Hagin Jr or Hagin Sr. approved of.

You stated earlier in your post that "Your statement on Hagin,is the topic" when it came to commenting on the comment I made to another. However, as I made the comment and know the background on where I am coming from, I do hope you can understand where I am coming from when it comes to why I had said some of your comments seemed off-topic - for Focusing on topic would involve realizing that no one said Hagin's message/Faith principles were stated to only be for whites - as it seemed was implied when it noted that Price introduced WOF to Black communities and helped to make it more relevant. Focusing on topic would include realizing why Price was so important for the spread of the Faith Movement in Black communities and why he is largely credited - and why Hagin was seen with suspicion by others due to his support of the Dakes Bible, in the same way others would be suspicious of someone saying that God does Divine Healing and yet also referencing material that says that Blacks would never be as prominent as whites.

And cultural contexualization was always a big deal when it came to Price's unique role in the movement. And for a brief reference from - as it concerns contexualization of WOF (for a brief excerpt):

Price continued to devour Hagin's teachings and presented them to his new church, Crenshaw Christian Center in California, which grew rapidly. Price later became a cherished guest speaker at Hagin's yearly camp meetings. Many black pastors in California became disgruntled with Price's prosperity theology and began to criticize his messages publicly. Yet by 1975, while Crenshaw grew to a thousand members, Price began to consider how to promote prosperity teachings through radio and television. During this time Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Rex Humbard, Robert Schuller, and several others developed national visibility through their television ministries. Fred Price and his church began to buy television time to promote his teachings first in Los Angeles and then in Washington, DC, Chicago, Detroit, and New York City before eventually expanding nationwide.

Price's television ministry was important for several reasons. For one, Price and Kenneth Copeland, a white disciple of Kenneth Hagin, became the first prosperity teachers on national television and therefore played dominant roles in making the beliefs become a growing part of neo-Pentecostalism. Although Oral Roberts, Jim Bakker, and other televangelists alluded to material blessings in the 1970s and 1980s, none did so with the deliberateness, intensity, and frequency as word-of-faith preachers like Price and Copeland. Price also became one of the first African American preachers on national television, promoting a new way to be black and Pentecostal. He consistently chided the emotionalism of the black church and offered a polished lecturing format as an alternative model for teaching ministries to challenge the anti-intellectualism that was prevalent in many black Pentecostal churches.

Price also boasted on television about his million-dollar salary and Rolls Royce, and taught that blacks can have their blessings on earth if they confess God's word and walk in faith.​

This is my last post in this thread

Blessings...

W.C.Fields in replying to a woman who called him a drunk: I'm drunk your crazy,tomorrow I will be sober but madam you will still be crazy.

Here is a parallel to this occasion.

We have ignorance and stupidity

I have been called ignorant,the good thing about ignorance is it can be corrected by education.

Troy the bad news is that you can't fix stupidity

Although I noted it in passing earlier, it seemed necessary to address the issue here - choosing to throw insults or attacks at others (regardless of how we may feel that they have done so to us) is something that this thread is not made for - as it does not honor what God has said in His Word and it was asked earlier that such activity cease since it does not help the thread.

James 3:12-18

12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Two Kinds of Wisdom
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.


I Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.​

​

As said before, it would be appreciated if such activity with could stop instead of choosing a tit-for-tat ...and if one wants to return an insult for an insult (despite it being against Christ), then it is advised one do so in PM and out of threads not made for it.

Blessings

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg
I have known, as a white man, that Dake had some, racial comments in his book God's Plan for Man. I bought mine in 1981. For me I just throw out these comments, and don't pay any attention to them. But will Blacks be offended if I refer to the Dake Bible? I refer to it at least once a week in my studies.

Shalom Scott,

I can definitely understand where you're coming from - but concerning what you wrote, it should be noted that it was never just Blacks who were offended since people from all differing kinds of ethnicities (including whites) had grave concerns. Part of the problem with throwing out comments is that it is not consistent -as it'd be like having a Bible that Hitler used when speaking deragatory in terms of the Jews (as he did make his own Bibleand sought to misuse it on many levels) and seeing others who used it/saw great things in it but simply ignored the comments instead of going beyond saying "This is wrong, ignore it" ...and actually going further to not invest in it due to where it doesn't promote Christ nor honor His people. It'd be the same if having a Bible referring to Blacks with the "N" word (as other churches used to do in the 19th century and part of the 20th century) - I am not going to use it regardless of what good I can get from it...and if choosing to use that Bible, I am going to at least make public notice that the Bible itself NEEDS to change if I'm going to support it. It's why many advocated the Dake's Study Bible needed to remove racial commentary and it was changed later on....and I'm glad others like Dr. Price exposed the many racial slurs Mr. Dake included in his Bible - despite where others today actually justify Dake's comments and say he was right to advocate racial segregation/forbidding of interracial marriage

Of course this doesn't mean that everything Dake ever made was off - but where he was off from scripture, it needs to be rejected and where it causes stumbling blocks for others, it has to be taken seriously if seeking to actually win others for the Gospel.

Love is the key ingredient of Christians. John 13:34,35 and for Christians to avoid each other because of race is a horrible mark against the church. The solution I see is for us to work together.

Avoiding others because of race is always a problem - but so is assuming others avoid each other when speaking on racial discrimination and the ways it has harmed other ethnic groups. This is something many whites have spoken on often when it comes to avoiding issues pertaining to racial reconcilliation that end up causing others not to be able to work together - and being far from Biblical love since the Apostles did not shy away from those issues in their time...but took them seriously enough to address both sides/note how both Jew and Gentile needed to be respectful of each other. Jesus noted the same thing when it came to the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-39 and showing what it meant to have true concern for others - and St. Paul did the same in Romans 15 and the Apostles had the same battle in Acts 6.

Where others may get uncomfortable and choose to avoid others dealing with race, that is where the Church gets a mark because we are not willing to deal with issues head-on.

Martin Luther said things against the Jews. I don't reject other things he says because of that, but I do keep in mind his short comings. Our view of past leaders should take this view of guarded acceptance.

Of course - as I've noted the same when it comes to addressing errors and yet knowing how much we are all in need of God's grace and need to be thankful for what others do well while also avoiding/addressing that which they do wrong.

On Martin Luther,
I've always found it interesting that many who used to deem Luther as being anti-semitic often changed their views of him when later studying his other works and seeing where he changed alot of his views. As one brother (a Jewish Anglican) said best when examining Luther and his evolution::

Luther's most glowing praises for the Jews is from an earlier paper, titled "That Jesus was Born a Jew" (1523) which was pretty good for its time, and was received with some animosity on the behalf of those in the Church. Excerpts of that are found here.

There are a number of excellent quotes from Luther about the Jews and also the Hebrew language, which I have in a book titled "What Luther says", an exhaustive catalog of testimonies from the Reformer about all kinds of topics. However, he doesn't say very many complimentary things about Jews in his commentaries on Is. 9 & 53. I, however, think this is typical of medieval voices both in and outside of the church, so no surprises really.

There is currently a spate of misquoting Martin Luther on the internet. A thread of "Luther's last sermon" has gone a little viral, and it is a re-working of "The Jews and their Lies", so this is incorrect. He died a few years after he wrote that hideous rubbish. (Actually, I don't rate Luther all that well after after 1539/40 or so. He was often very good before that but I'm not a fan of the later, more stressed and ill Luther)

Unfortunately, I do not know of a copy of that sermon online. However, it is cited in part here and there. It is dated 15 Feb 1546. You can find it in Vol. 51 of the Weimar edition of his works, p. 195

I am of the mind that Luther died rather confused about a lot of things and that God was working on his heart to bring him to repentance about his abrasiveness towards his theological opponents and his Jewish, Catholic and Reformed neighbors. However, it appears on the surface that he died before he could come to that place where Christian charity filled his entire heart. Thank God that He is merciful to us.

As I have said numerous times in many posts- Luther wrote very highly in regard the Jews in his early works, and these were not always well received. When he went too far and wrote violent comments about the Jews (ie. attacks on the Jewish community, not just the Jewish religion, he does not make a clear distinction as the modern apologists for his TJaTL do) he was not well received either. I don't think he could win on the subject of the Jews.


However, his very last sermon called for proper Christian treatment of the Jews. People seem to forget that. Perhaps he was repentant, but unable to come all the way in loving his Jewish neighbour.

The real problem here is that if you are on the receiving end of such anti-semitic rants, it means nothing to you whether such rants were intended for your race or your religion. Either way, you pay with your blood, possessions and culture at the hands of "Christianity".

Luther became anti-semitic much

later in his life, and the reasons are debated to this day (Jewish bankers coming against welfare proposals, frustration with their resistance to the Gospel, he was spiritually spent and depressed etc have all been offered as explanations for his change of heart. There must be hundreds of theories about this)


I have laid a challenge at the feet of church history nuts about this. I have said: find me one church leader in the 16thC that has a nice thing to say about the Jews. As yet- no takers, but you can find Luther praising them early in his career and hating them in his late career. Very strange/ironic. When he praised the Jews, his opponents reviled him. When he went anti-semitic, his opponents reviled him. The guy couldn't win. The weirdest point is that in his last sermon he said that the Jews should be treated with Christian love and prayer.

​

A lot of the things that were used to support anti-semitic thought from a religious perspective was often taken WAY out of context. In example, even individuals famed for being considered anti-semitic such as Martin Luther himself were known to be "pro-Jewish" at certain points---and as one of my dear friends (who's Messianic Jewish) noted previously:

They taught him Hebrew, and he had cordial relationships with people who were Jewish. I'll quote some of those praises if you wish- very amazing stuff at a time when no one had a nice thing to say about the Jews. If you are not familiar with it, check out "Jesus was born a Jew" in his works. The haters will of course hijack the thread and repeat the anti-semitic theme, which will bore me to death, because it is such common knowledge and well worn out here.


Luther became anti-semitic much later in his life, and the reasons are debated to this day (Jewish bankers coming against welfare proposals, frustration with their resistance to the Gospel, he was spiritually spent and depressed etc have all been offered as explanations for his change of heart. There must be hundreds of theories about this)


I have laid a challenge at the feet of church history nuts about this. I have said: find me one church leader in the 16thC that has a nice thing to say about the Jews. As yet- no takers, but you can find Luther praising them early in his career and hating them in his late career. Very strange/ironic. When he praised the Jews, his opponents reviled him. When he went anti-semitic, his opponents reviled him. The guy couldn't win. The weirdest point is that in his last sermon he said that the Jews should be treated with Christian love and prayer.


I honestly don't think there is a single church leader in the 16thC who didn't practice in what we would consider today as anti-semitism. A sign of the times and in that context Luther seems to be a man of his day. All bad.

He was very pro-Jewish in his early years- and was criticized for it- and was very anti-Jewish in his later years - and is criticized for it, and yet urged kindness towards the Jews in his last ever sermon (something not very well known)

The fact of the matter is this: can anyone name one single Christian leader of the 1500's that was not anti-semitic? Just one? Nope. I have checked and checked....not a single person prepared to be nice to the Jews. Yet, we have "Jesus was a Jew", and "How Christians Should Regard Moses" written in that time. So, ironically, the only "pro-Jewish" literature I have found from that era was written by....Martin Luther! This is proof that truth is stranger than fiction!

There is a very strange desire by many here to try to paint the myth that Luther was the worst of all the anti-semites. I believe this is because he is a high-profile figure, and every word he spoke seems to have gained an audience. However, as I have found, in the 1500s, there is not a single Christian teacher who was kind to the Jews. This was a sign of the times. I can't, for this reason, blame old Luther as the cause of the woe of the Jews.

Originally Posted by ContraMundum
Even Luther (no friend of the Jews later in life) did not argue that unbelieving Jews worshiped a "false god". He, like me, argued that they worshiped God in vain.

"15. If John the Baptist had believed after the resurrection of Christ, nay, at his own time, that Christ would come or had not yet come, he would have been damned

16. Therefore the Jews now believe in vain in God, the Promiser of the Messiah - a belief that their fathers formerly correctly held

17. The Turks and other peoples believe in vain in God, the Creator of the world..."

(SL 19, 1469)

"Since the ascension of Christ and the public proclamation of the Gospel, the Jews no longer have any excuse. Nor does it do them any good to have their religious services, to do and suffer much, to pray and serve God in their false notion of the coming of the Messiah" (SL 8, 714)

I spent a little time today going through Luther, Chemnitz, your mate Walther, Lenski, Pieper and a couple others and no where did I stumble on the notion that Jews worshiped a false God. Even the hideous and infamous letter of Luther dated 1543 (we won't honor it with a mention) admits that God hears their prayers (or "endures" them as he said), and he also says of the Jews "they read in our writings that we agree with Moses' words in Deuteronomy 6 [:4]: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God," and that we confess, publicly and privately, with our hearts, tongues and writings, our life and our death, that there is but one God, of whom Moses writes here and whom the Jews themselves call upon"

.

​

For more, one can go to here to #25 , #66 #91 , #93 #111 , #112, and #147.

I've noted this same dynamic in regards to the early Church, as I've often seen others attempt to claim all things by the Fathers were automatically anti-semitic ..despite where there were Jewish fathers as well and many are not understood in the context they existed in when it came to living in an Empire already hostile toward Jewish people and many Jews having to go "undercover" ( more discussed on that here for example). I'm thankful for others who have sought to do so as well when not understanding the full context that the Early Church Fathers existed in....and other Jewish believers within the Church have often sought to note this. You learn to have mercy on others while addressing where they could be off...

Thanks for all this history, I will refer to this in the future.

Cool to know. Blessings )

 

[AbbaLove]

At one time the WOF Movement referred to itself as "charismatic" ... now "non-denominational" seems to be the norm. One member told me that referring to WOF as "charismatic" sends the wrong message. What's that about ???

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.
9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.
10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said.

Luke 8:1-3
1 Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him,
2 along with some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases. Among them were Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons;
3 Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others (women) who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but so far into this lengthy thread no one has yet to mention Kathryn Kuhlman's contribution to the WOF Movement. Several other contemporaries of Kenneth E Hagin have been mentioned but the only woman of mention is Billye Brim. In reviewing the last few pages of this WOF forum most all the posts are by men.

 

[now faith]

]Gxg,

Thanks for your posts and the info. I apologize if I have allowed myself to get distracted into the usual immaturity, ignorance and foolishness that is sometimes displayed on the forums. Anyway, some very interesting stuff. Some of it I have been aware of but you have also given some new info. Thanks. Blessings to you.[/QUOTE

Now I enjoy discussion but I really don't have time for ignorance. If you want to talk then stop being so combative. I you cannot then don't read anything I post.Quote
post.Quote


Thank You, For your knowledge

1 Thessalonians: 4. 6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. 9. But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. -


Colossians: 2. 6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[now faith]

The religious imagery and theology backing the KKK was not a small issue (more discussed in discussed here or here in Sunday Lynchings: The Church’s Role in Our Nation’s Legacy of Racism : Convergence Church Oakland: A church seeking and serving the greater area of Oakland, CA and Practicing What They Preach? Lynching and Religion in the American South, 1890 – 1929 in The Color of Christ: The Son of God & the Saga of Race in America - Edward J. Blum, Paul Harvey - Google Books and Book Review: The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone | The Jesus Question other places). It is highly unfortunate to witness how between 1919 and 1939, according to Robert Moats Miller, white people in the United States “hung, shot, burned, gouged, flogged, drowned, impaled, dismembered, garroted, and blowtorched” to to death more than 500 black people in lynchings (from the The Protestant Churches and Lynching, 1919-1939, The Journal of Negro History, pp. 118-131)

Today through Sunday, the Black Panthers are celebrating their 40th anniversary. Check out their absurd, celebratory website. Talk about chutzpah. This group is the epitome of it. “In your face, American Honkies. We got you.”
It’s been a long 40 years under the Panthers reign of terror in America. The Black Panthers’ 40 years has been marked by violence, murder, cop-killing, anti-Semitism, anti-White racism, pan-Islamism and a host of other things that are no good for any free and democratic society.
Several Black Panthers are now extremist Muslims and cause celebres in the Islamofascist community, like convicted, imprisoned cop-killer Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin a/k/a H. Rap Brown. Al-Amin, who bragged, “Violence is as American as cherry pie,” killed one sheriff’s deputy and wounded another in March 2000. The group–so vicious, so violent–even savagely tortured and murdered its own. The disgusting way they tortured and dismembered their living victims was so sick, it rivals that of the Islamic terrorists we are fighting now. Ungreat minds think alike.
blackpanthersthen.jpgblackpanthersnow.jp

no comment

 

[Truthfrees]

At one time the WOF Movement referred to itself as "charismatic" ... now "non-denominational" seems to be the norm. One member told me that referring to WOF as "charismatic" sends the wrong message. What's that about ???

We're both.

We're charismatic because we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit and use the gifts of the Spirit, like the Charismatics do.

We're non-denominational because we haven't established ourselves as a denomination with a governing body, we're still operating as a movement, and probably will continue operating as a movement.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This is my last post in this thread,.

This was said earlier before this response, so to continue posting is very odd...

Thank you for rebuking the other party,or did I miss that?

A couple of things before going further...about 4 actually, to keep it specific (since it was already asked that one please stay on topic)..

One, no one was allowed to be flammed - as I noted directly from the OP that any kind of flamming was not to be promoted and I already said that BOTH of you (as has occurred before) have done that. I don't care to focus on it, as I will address only what is pertinent to the OP when it comes to history on WOF - Any kind of arguing is not what I am concerned for - and as I already said to another on both of you in action:

... the exchange between now-faith and victoryword, it seemed to become a big issue of reacting to things which were never said - and for both of them, the goal should be to be gracious to one another even if not understanding or agreeing. This has occurred before between both of them in other threads and it was something I noted from the OP should NOT happen here....Claiming the motives of others - as nowfaith did with victoryword - or saying another is ignorant (as it seemed victoryword did - was not necessary -..and if both sides choose to engage in that, I cannot stop it. I can only keep in mind what God said in the Word...for anyone in the thread, if being here, there needs to be a willingness to listen/respond in maturity if actually discussing sensitive topics pertaining to the actual history of what happens in WOF - and when others go off, there needs to be a willingness to actually listen.​

This is consistent with what I already noted directly in the OP :

That said, the purpose of this thread is for others to share where they feel others are either NOT FOUNDERS or ARE FOUNDERS. Here are rules I ask for others to respect before joining:

• Do not simply say someone is a founder or isn't. Please give evidence showing (in quotes) where others claimed themselves to be a founder of WOF
• Show historically why someone considered themselves a founder
• If you disagree with someone, please be respectful and do not go into the realm of fighting.

As fighting was what was chosen rather than doing what Paul said in how we're to interact with each other in graciousness, it's why I noted it. If you respect the OP and wish to be on topic, that will be kept in mind

I would remind you this is a Word of Faith congressional forum you are teaching and rebuking in.

Two, fellowship/agreement with other WOFers has always been present - as has been for years (as I already grew up in the Faith movement/commented here before - from #27 to #48 to #35 when it comes to the issue of music - when I was solely WOF but have since expanded in connections beyond it). We can also go back, if needing clear reference, where subjectivity makes a world of difference seeing the fact that the argument you brought up does not really have basis since it was never an issue for you if something said/discussed in-detail happened to agree with your own stances - as noted in #105 (on theophanies) or #96 or 71 (on Joyce Myers/Prosperity)...the list goes on. Thus, we cannot switch if saying we want to be consistent on the issue.

Those who want to discuss WOF history and have agreed, I am focusing on them - hence, why conversation was going on between us.

I am not a door mat nor do I consider your rebuke of any consequence.

Three, if choosing to make something a personal matter when claiming "I am not a doormat", one would be wise to cease that kind of mindset since disagreeing doesn't entail all the other claims you made.......seeing that no one said you were a door mat and claiming someone was "rebuking" is without any evidence, seeing that the Word of God as the focus will always be the focus - not what I say.

If the Apostles and Christ are the focus, what they say is what matters - if the Word matters, it is what I will follow. Whether or not you deem that to be a "rebuke" is of no consequence as the scriptures are clear - And God has already said how we're to interact. As it concerns the OP, I already noted of both you and victoryword where I would prefer neither of you go off-topic and instead focus on the OP subject itself instead of more of the same with arguing back-and-forth as has occurred in other threads...

Your thread has a personal agenda that is obviously aimed at race,and I would consider the statements and videos provided a source for discord.

Four, it would be rather easy of me to claim that your responses (as it concerns denying that Hagin or anyone in the Faith Movement's history was connected with ethnic concerns) would be personal - but that would be unnecessary since it would be assuming motives (which is not warranted) and it would not be fair.

Again, as the discussion the OP centers upon is focused on the actual history with the WOF movement, there will always be a necessity of dealing with that history as it is - if really seeking to be honest on the history at all points. Regardless of any protest on the matter, Race was NEVER the focus of the OP - although multiculturalism (as said before)/cultural contexualization was always a big part behind why certain camps of the WOF movement went the direction they did - and this will never be hidden whatsoever, unless one thinks that Hagin Jr (and his father in defending him) was right to claim to Dr. Fredrick Price that forbidding interracial marriages was somehow "godly"....for Dr. Price in his actions (after being raised by Hagin Sr./brought up for the purposes of reaching out to the Black community with the Faith message) was right in calling out Hagin Jr. and it's why WOF went a different direction in certain camps. Outside of that, Concerning WOF Founders/leaders, I'm very thankful for others speaking on it such as [URL="http://www.documentarytv.org/confessions-of-a-stiff-necked-godly-backslider-pastor-jack-hayford-video_3dbe3cfe1.html"]Jack Hayford (amazing man of God and one whom Paul and Jan Crouch, influential in spreading the message of the Faith Movement since many Word of Faith preachers broadcasted their services and campaigns via the largest Christian-based television network in the world and that network was owned by Faith adherents, Paul and Jan Crouch, who considered him to be their personal pastor ..and one who was instrumental in showing what it meant to walk by faith - especially in books I was blessed to read from him such as How to Live Through a Bad Day: Seven Powerful Insights From Christ's Words on the Cross and New Spirit-Filled Life Bible: ). He has spoken actively on the issue when it comes to how things developed[/URL] in the Faith Movement and larger Pentecostal movement when it comes to racism and indifference to the ways it impacts Black communities in specific ways - even noting it in his book Sharpening Your Leading Edge: Moving from Methods to Mindset

And as I already said, Lester Sumrall (a key founder within WOF) spoke on the issue forecefully - and others who grew up in the WOF camps they are in will take the issue seriously as they always have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsI366eaEGs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjJl_5Q_hA

It is what it is with what he and other WOF leaders already stated...


My heart - as it has been for years (including when I grew up in it) - with WOF will be upon dealing exactly as the founders and key figures have noted the topic to be since dealing honestly with the issue is part of addressing issues seriously. And multiculturalism was always a big deal within the Faith Movement...as well as the Charismatic movement in general.

That said, there were already several points of history within WOF that you could have easily commented upon since other founders spoken on did not deal with - as this was noted rather directly when speaking on others such as Larry Lea/the prayer movement he began (as noted in #42 or the charts concerning where founders in the WOF Movement (like Smith Wigglesworth) influenced other covergent groups in WOF like John Wimber (as noted in #44 ) and issue of groups interconnected as mentioned in #20

If you wanted to deal with WOF history outside the topic of multiculturalism, there were multiple points for you to do so - and yet at several points, it was....and STILL is....avoided. Thus, I would have to ask "Who exactly is making the subject a race a greater focus in this thread?" since responding to your comments that focus on it keeps the issue in focus.

As I already said, the focus of the thread is on the subject of history behind how the Faith Movement (in all of its various aspects/incarnations ) began - and this is not a thread designed for the purposes of discussion that goes against that (including anything within the realm of tit-for-tat commentary, accusing things of others that people do not believe in or anything else similar to that if that will be insisted upon rather than respecting the OP request).

This is something others in the WOF movement have noted before and there are always options: One can respectfully disagree (as in "learn to disagree agreeably") with topics one does not want to discuss - be it in asking "What did you mean when you said this?" (benefit of doubt/listening) or saying "I disagree"/move on. Insisting otherwise alongside making accusations (without reference) is not warranted - and if necessary, we can always go to the Members Complaint forum directly to address the issue.

But as said before, if you're not going to discuss the OP topic, I have no real intention of responding to you further -

Blessings

Today through Sunday, the Black Panthers are celebrating their 40th anniversary. Check out their absurd, celebratory website. Talk about chutzpah. ...
If you don't want a negative response then quit providing the fuel.

Don't know why the Black Panthers were brought up - seeing that most of the information within it wasn't even correct (and as said before, it's off-topic). Nonetheless, since it was brought up, it should be noted that it's shameful what others have done in the name of the Black Panthers like King Shabazz and the new group calling themselves "The New Black Panthers" - as they are not a part of the actual historical group in what they did since the Black Panthers CONDEMNED racism/hatred of others who were not Black (more shared in #77 )- and others who are Jewish supported them (the original party) in many chapters around the U.S - Michael Lerner being one of them.

• The Original Rainbow Coalition: An Example of Universal Identity Politics | Tikkun Magazine

That's history, Bruh - and what others do today in the name of the Black Panthers (when it comes to any hatred of differing ethnic groups) is an insult to others who were militant but with restraint and who showed compassion - and something that'll always be a significant problem for me...and on the history of the group/them reflecting Christ like Luke 10:25-39

• radical practices of collective care: THE BLACK PANTHERS' FREE BREAKFAST FOR SCHOOL CHILDREN

• Black Panthers distribute free groceries

• Black Panthers denounce ‘new’ Panthers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBJNt-LKVNE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7cbTT7z5xQ

If you want to deal with history, it's not a problem for me to address the actual history. For inaccurate history fuels inaccurate ideologies. The only issue, of course, is that it is not what the OP has spoken on.

Blessings

 

[Gxg (G²)]

1 Corinthians 12:8-10
8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.
9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing.
10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said.

Luke 8:1-3
1 Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him,
2 along with some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases. Among them were Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons;
3 Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others (women) who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but so far into this lengthy thread no one has yet to mention Kathryn Kuhlman's contribution to the WOF Movement. Several other contemporaries of Kenneth E Hagin have been mentioned but the only woman of mention is Billye Brim. In reviewing the last few pages of this WOF forum most all the posts are by men.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Kathryn Kuhlman as of yet - seeing how significant she was....and of course, when it comes to the issue of other founders being Women, I do have to say that it seems to be more men than others.

Kathryn was truly someone who stood out (and a Big Influence on Benny Hinn) - and there were many amazing things with who she was as a person:

• Televising Testimony: Kathryn Kuhlman and Your Faith and Mine
  by Dr. Amy Artman
  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ8EB136rP8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu38dcspu-M

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but so far into this lengthy thread no one has yet to mention Kathryn Kuhlman's contribution to the WOF Movement. Several other contemporaries of Kenneth E Hagin have been mentioned but the only woman of mention is Billye Brim. In reviewing the last few pages of this WOF forum most all the posts are by men.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

I was wondering on Anni Mcphearson actually as one of the female founders in the WOF movement..

• Scandalous Women: The Mysterious Disappearance of Aimee Semple McPherson

• History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Smithsonian

• Aimee Semple McPherson | Old Time Radio

• Fanatic for Jesus: Aimee Semple McPherson: Her Impact on the Third Wave Movement

Seeing that the WOF movement has its historic origins in the charismatic movement of the early 20th, Mcphearson is one of the key leading ladies whom I wish was discussed more. She was truly a radical individual....and as she noted, "Faith believes God, takes Him absolutely at His word, and through faith sees the promises of God materialize"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0bXH1YgKf4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOWgaJb2FVE

 

[now faith]

Quote: Gxg
Although I noted it in passing earlier, it seemed necessary to address the issue here - choosing to throw insults or attacks at others (regardless of how we may feel that they have done so to us) is something that this thread is not made for - as it does not honor what God has said in His Word and it was asked earlier that such activity cease since it does not help the thread.



Indeed I said I was done.
The need for another comment was unnecessary.
Forgive me for my responses being aggressive and interrupting your thread.

 

[AbbaLove]

I was wondering on Anni Mcphearson actually as one of the female founders in the WOF movement..

Not "founders" as I understand the WOF Movement. Aimee Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman both manifested an anointing that isn't required if one has enough faith to truly Believe. The Protestant Reformation beginning with Martin Luther's revelation that "the just shall live by faith" was a forerunner to the WOF Movement. In a way Martin Luther was a founder. A very broad-based WOF Movement chart might have Martin Luther in the center instead of John Wesley. On the other hand women like McPherson, Kuhlman and other woman (e.g. Ruth Ward Heflin, Francis Hunter) influenced the WOF Movement in one way or another as have many other men and women of Faith.

The "Full Gospel" movement was a forerunner of the "Word of Faith" movement. At some point the Full Gospel movement was replaced by the Word of Faith movement as the in-the-know phrase. Both movements are noted for their Pentecostal/Charismatic nature which isn't necessarily true for some of the men included on that chart. The Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship was a forerunner to the Prosperity Gospel which influenced the WOF Movement.

Shalom

The 20th Century WOF Movement is often associated with the healing ministry of Kenneth E. Hagin. It was Hagin’s realization as a very sick bedridden teenager with an incurable disease that the Words of Jesus were just as relevant today as when spoken to His disciples. Hagin's revelation was just as significant to the lukewarm religious Protestantism of his day as that of Martin Luther's revelation (Hebrews 10:38) was to the Catholicism of his day. Hagin's revelation (Mark 11:23-24) dramatically increased his faith resulting in his own miraculous healing and a ministry that became known as the "Word Of Faith" Movement.

Hebrews 10:38 ~ Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Mark 11:24 ~ Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

What distinguished the modern WOF Movement was the realization that the level of faith taught in many Protestant denominations was below par from what Jesus taught and intended for every Believer until His return (e.g. Mark 11:24). In fact more than one Protestant Pastor did more to discourage Hagin's faith than increase his faith with respect to Mark 11:24.

Despite discouragement Hagin kept returning to Mark 11:24. Over weeks, if not months, these Words of Jesus finally possessed his spirit with such a measure of Faith as to effectively heal his incurable disease. Today's true WOF Believers as disciples/followers of Jesus would not need to be rebuked by Jesus with words like, "You have so little faith" or "Why are you afraid?" or "Why are you arguing with each other?" or "Why did you doubt me?"

Matt 8:26 ~ Jesus responded, “Why are you afraid? You have so little faith!” Then he got up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly there was a great calm.
Matt 16:8 ~ Jesus knew what they were saying, so he said, “You have so little faith! Why are you arguing with each other about having no bread?
Matt 14:31 ~ Jesus immediately reached out and grabbed him. “You have so little faith,”Jesus said. “Why did you doubt me?”
Luke 7:9 ~ When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to the crowd that was following him, he said, “I tell you, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel!”

Jesus rebuked His Disciples before they were empowered by the Holy Spirit for their lack of faith. According to Kenneth Hagin's testimony the religious theology of that day (1930s) did more to discourage one's faith in the Words (teaching) of Jesus than increase one's faith in His Words (e.g. Mark 11:23-24).

The intent/purpose of the WOF Movement is to increase one's faith in the Living Word. How much Faith is needed other than to really, truly believe with all one's being. Any ministry that increases one's faith to see what is possible with God (that is impossible with man) is a part of today's WOF Movement. Jesus is the real "founder" of the New Testament WOF Movement. All the noted men and women of Faith that are respected by most (e.g. Hagin); while others are ridiculed by some (e.g. Hinn) are for the most part obedient servants of the Lord with special supernatural Giftings to Glorify God and advance His Kingdom on earth. It was the public ministry of Jesus in deliverance, healing and miracles that elevated the faith of many including one woman's faith that resulted in an instant healing.

Luke 8:43-48
43 And a woman who had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and could not be healed by anyone,
44 came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped.
45 And Jesus said, “Who is the one who touched Me?” And while they were all denying it, Peter said, “Master, the people are crowding and pressing in on You.”
46 But Jesus said, “Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me.”
47 When the woman saw that she had not escaped notice, she came trembling and fell down before Him, and declared in the presence of all the people the reason why she had touched Him, and how she had been immediately healed.
48 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”

Luke 8:18 ~ So pay attention to how you hear. To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what they think they understand will be taken away from them.
Luke 18:8 ~ ... But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?”

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Not "founders" as I understand the WOF Movement. Aimee Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman both manifested an anointing that isn't required if one has enough faith to truly Believe. The Protestant Reformation beginning with Martin Luther's revelation that "the just shall live by faith" was a forerunner to the WOF Movement. In a way Martin Luther was a founder. A very broad-based WOF Movement chart might have Martin Luther in the center instead of John Wesley. On the other hand women like McPherson, Kuhlman and other woman (e.g. Ruth Ward Heflin, Francis Hunter) influenced the WOF Movement in one way or another as have many other men and women of Faith.

I can definitely understand what it is that you are saying - as there have always been others walking in the gifts and abilities that are expressed predominately within the Faith Movement that many in the WOF world were not aware of due to lack of exposure. There was a discussion on this very issue not too long ago when it came to others who pre-dated the WOF camp from the 1960s/1970s and who had very harsh circumstances to deal with - yet they did amazing things, such as George Washington Carver and the powerful faith he had to do the miraculous/save the nation even though he was sold into slavery as a youth and castrated and dealing with many other things......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik3iWiTlln8

And others similar to people like McPhearson and Kuhlman who exercised amazing faith would be people like Agnes N. Ozman in the work she did alongside Parham when it came to the Apostolic Faith movement (as Parham called it) and the powerful outpourings of the Holy Spirit like the Topeka Outpouring - preceding the WOF movement - and her work on the mission field when it came to the gift of tongues/spreading the Gospel abroad...even though her influences came from the Holiness Movement of the 19th century.

• Agnes Ozman and the Topeka Outpouring | The Old Landmark: Celebrating Apostolic Heritage

• The Holiness-Pentecostal Tradition: Charismatic Movements in the Twentieth
  

And even with Martin Luther, there was actually a discussion on the forum from several years ago I will never forget (when I first came to CF) where Luther was discussed and many of his direct quotes/teachings on the authority of a believer in Christ were actually examined - truly fascinating to see how much he understood the concept of faith as many in the Faith Movement do today. As said before:

This is what I have often said, that faith makes of us lords, and love makes of us servants. Indeed, by faith we become gods and partakers of the divine nature and name, as is said in Psalms 82,6: "I said, Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High." But through love we become equal to the poorest. According to faith we are in need of nothing, and have an abundance; according to love we are servants of all. By faith we receive blessings from above, from God; through love we give them out below, to our neighbor. Even as Christ in his divinity stood in need of nothing, but in his humanity served everybody who had need of him. Of this we have spoken often enough, namely, that we also must by faith be born God's sons and gods, lords and kings, even as Christ is born true God of the Father in eternity; and again, come out of ourselves by love and help our neighbors with kind deeds, even as Christ became man to help us all-------Luther, Martin The Sermons of Martin Luther Vol. II (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House), pp. 73, 74
__________________
​

Kenneth Hagin in his book, The Believer's Authority, states in his forward: "Back in the 1940's, I asked myself the question, "Do we have authority that we don't know about-that we haven't discovered-that we're not using?". Later, he went on to prove, starting at p.1, that we do based on the premise of Ephesians 1:16-23; Ephesians 2:1-7; Ephesians 3:14-19; Ephesians 6:10-18 and stating: "Because this book is based on Ephesians, let me encourage you to read the first three chapters over and over again for several days."


As Hagin also wrote in one of his other books:

"We are accepted by God to reign as kings in life. We are no longer servants in the realm of spiritual death, but we have passed out of death, Satan's realm, into the realm of the heavenlies. Man was never made to be a slave. He was made to reign as king under God. He was made on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority.(Emphasis mine)"​

Hagin further writes, “God made man His understudy. He made him king, to rule over everything that had life. Man was master. Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms of equality with God.” (both quotes from his book Zoe: The God-Kind of Life).

Of course, Even before Hagin---or any other teacher in the WOF Movement, Martin Luther again echoed the same exact concepts that were brought up...as seen when he said clearly in a sermon on John 19:

"Observe, what great transcendent comfort we have in that God awakens in us also the same power he exercises in Christ, and bestows upon us equal authority. As he made him sit in heavenly places, above all power and might, and everything that can be named; so has he invested us also with the same power, that those who believe have all power over heaven and earth. This we have in the words he left behind him; and they are so powerful, that when they are spoken by us, they avail as much as if he himself were on earth and spake them in the majesty and glory in which he now exists. And this is the power we have from his resurrection and ascension; there he gives us power to, kill and to make alive, to consign to the devil and to rescue from him."
​

Many others besides that, of course..(as discussed before here).

The "Full Gospel" movement was a forerunner of the "Word of Faith" movement. At some point the Full Gospel movement was replaced by the Word of Faith movement as the in-the-know phrase. Both movements are noted for their Pentecostal/Charismatic nature which isn't necessarily true for some of the men included on that chart. The Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship was a forerunner to the Prosperity Gospel which influenced the WOF Movement.

That's a very good point as it concerns the flow of things...although it should be also said that not all men on a chart define Pentecostal/Charismatic in the same way we do today at many points and others were very Charismatic in ways others did not feel were "Charismatic" enough. Also, when things shift, it can be hard to keep up with seeing when it did in the same way that it can be hard to keep up with ripples in a pond/seeing which one was the first since they can often merge together...separate...and then come together again after they've both respectively grown.

And with the Word of Faith adopting the term "Full Gospel" as others did in previous movements, it's interesting to see others who've since developed in offering their own perspectives in what can sometimes be missed - as I am reminded of the work of Dr. Michael Brown (who has worked with others in the Faith Movement like Benny Hinn on a number of occassions on showing Christ IN his Jewish lifestyle) - he is very passionate for reaching out to Jewish believers due to his Jewish background and Dr. Michael Brown (of the Brownsville Revival as well as the Toronto Blessing with [URL="https://books.google.com/books?id=Mf5MAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA289&dq=Rodney+Howard+Browne+Hagin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vU3rVIbgKImbgwSO9IL4Aw&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Rodney%20Howard%20Browne%20Hagin&f=false"]Rodney Howard Browne who was active in Kenneth Hagin's Rhema Ministries in South Africa., and one of the prominent Messianic Jewish apologists today) said before[/URL] when it comes to experiences he has had in the Faith Movement and how much other camps connected to it shifted (even though he was involved with others and still does work - like his work with Heidi Baker who's connected with Toronto since she began ministry out of it when starting Iris Ministries to reach others on the mission field and he is very focused on Revival still even after his leaving Brownsville despite being very passionate/powerful within it since the Brownsville Revival had a wide range of impact within the Pentecostal and Charismatic world, including the Faith Movement....but what he said was very timely - especially as it concerns the way that movements can do negative when only defining themselves by their concepts in written form and yet losing sight of the evidence that needs to follow them in their lifestyle).

Brother Troy actually shared on that before in a way which made me think - as noted when he said the following:

I am afraid that many in the Word-Faith have made the mistake of every denomination and movement in history. When we study church history we see that every single major move of God had miracles manifested with it. Even Martin Luther, who taught cessationism actually had a powerful healing ministry.

John and Charles Wesley and the Methodist movement had numerous miracles and manifestations. Yet look at most Methodist churches today. The Holiness movement, the Higher-Life movement, the Faith-Cure movement of the 1800s, the Pentecostal Movement, the Charismatic Movement, and then the Word-Faith MOvement all came with power and manifestations and encouragement through the gifts of the Spirit.

I saw a lot of it when I first came to Christ in the 80s (some of my friends who came into the movement in the 70s tell me that this was when the power of God was truly on display). I saw much of it subtly die in the 90s, except with occasional spurts here and there.

It seems like the Vineyard churches, many who contend with WoF theology, see more manifestations of the Spirit than Word-Chruches. I wondered why until I read some of their books. While I disagree with much Vineyard theology, I see that they expect a move of God and allow for the freedom of God in their services.

Word-Faith churches can be just as bad as any doctrinaire denomination, focusing on the core doctrines of their particular group and not focusing on the desires of God to move in their midst. While I also strongly disagree with the Word-Faith critics and their rhetoric, sometimes they raise some valid points, such as faith preachers regurgitating each others books (well, what group doesn't do that though?). The point is that many of the books on faith say the same thing: What faith is, how faith comes, make proper confessions, use your authority, the Name of Jesus, etc.

..principles apart from a manifestation of God's presence and power is nothing but dead doctrine.

​

Good thoughts, on the issue. We can end up missing the concepts the Lord already laid out in His Word and how they play out when focusing on "Well, who's in our camp holding to the expression of these thoughts in these words?" rather than looking at how the Lord is working to change hearts/lives practically and that he is not limited to one movement....but all claims of true change will be limited to ONE standard and that's Jesus in how He lived/operated. Thus, for other groups that were forerunners of the WOF Movement and set the stage, they are not disconnected from WOF nor are others not able to walk in what the Faith Movement emphasized even if they did not begin within the Faith MOVEMENT since the Spirit of God will NOT be limited to one place - and is always available for any who seek Him. And we should be looking for threads of the Holy Spirit's moving in the world - His footprints - rather than simply looking at links in the chain.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The 20th Century WOF Movement is often associated with the healing ministry of Kenneth E. Hagin. It was Hagin’s realization as a very sick bedridden teenager with an incurable disease that the Words of Jesus were just as relevant today as when spoken to His disciples. Hagin's revelation was just as significant to the lukewarm religious Protestantism of his day as that of Martin Luther's revelation (Hebrews 10:38) was to the Catholicism of his day.

Before going further, I think it should be noted that Luther was actually not the first to bring forth the revelation that he did - as it was something many in the Catholic Church were for and many in the Catholic Church had long been seeking to reform it (more shared here and here in http://orthodoxbridge.com/contra-sola-scriptura-part-3-of-4/) - and as shared before:

Now the counter reformation was great and Catholics do honor it. But there have been many counter reformations in history before protestants came on the scene. One of the best counter reformations took place with St. Francis of Assisi hundreds of years before Luther.

St. Francis is a good example of what could have been had Pope Leo been in the mood to talk; many of St. Francis's ideas were far more radical than those of Luther. Had Rome taken the Augsburg Confession for what it was intended to be; a starting point for dialogue instead of out-rightly condemning it, we could be looking at a much different Church. Likewise, had the "Radical Reformers" stayed out of the mix, Rome may have viewed the Confession and Apology in a different light.

Luther was in the right place at the right time. Had Hus had the same advantages and resources as Luther, this thread could very well be about his reformation.

One of our theologians has gone so far as to state that had Luther been born after Trent, there very well may not have been a reformation.

Lots of what ifs eh?

What I find interesting is seeing the way many in the Reformation did not support the Renaissance, even though others outside of it did........for with others such as Martin Luther (in example), their view of man was one where there was no good whatsoever and they saw man as being fully depraved in all aspects. It was not a glorious view of man.....whereas others, such as Desiderius Erasmus (an early associate of Luther who also fought for reform in the Church and yet differed with him on many other things) accepted that man had many beautiful traits in him. Erasmus was a Catholic priest/devout man of God who was one of the leading Renaissance humanists of his time...one who was able to brige the world of the past to the present in that era while also fighting for Reform...and seeing the way he/others like him differed starkly from Luther when it came to the nature of man, I often wonder if the Reformation was ever able to do what the Renaissance did in bringing life back.

Erasmus also set the way for translation of the New Testament -being the first to translate the New Testament into Greek from the Latin of the Vulgate...a literary milestone and something which opened the door for substantial development. Moreover, more than a century before Grotius wrote his famous work on international law, his countryman Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam laid the foundations for the modern critique of war since in several writings, especially those published in the period 1515-1517, the ‘prince of humanists’ brilliantly and devastatingly condemned war not only on Christian but also on secular/rational grounds - with his graphic depiction of the miseries of war, together with his impassionate plea for its avoidance, remaining unparalleled. Being an advocate of Christian virtue within the Church and having association with Luther, translation of the Greek New Testament, and satirical commentaries about the evils in the Church made him the target of criticism...but without his work, much in society would be lacking.

As often as Luther and others like him are celebrated as restoring the Church to a position to help man do what he was meant to do, I tend to think it was others like Erasmus and other believers for the Renaissance who were truly helpful in aiding man in his development.

That said, indeed, Hagin's Revelation was just as powerful for many as the work that Luther did when challenging the Roman Catholic Church.

Hagin's revelation (Mark 11:23-24) dramatically increased his faith resulting in his own miraculous healing and a ministry that became known as the "Word Of Faith" Movement.

Hebrews 10:38 ~ Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Mark 11:24 ~ Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

What distinguished the modern WOF Movement was the realization that the level of faith taught in many Protestant denominations was below par from what Jesus taught and intended for every Believer until His return (e.g. Mark 11:24). In fact more than one Protestant Pastor did more to discourage Hagin's faith than increase his faith with respect to Mark 11:24.

Despite discouragement Hagin kept returning to Mark 11:24. Over weeks, if not months, these Words of Jesus finally possessed his spirit with such a measure of Faith as to effectively heal his incurable disease. Today's true WOF Believers as disciples/followers of Jesus would not need to be rebuked by Jesus with words like, "You have so little faith" or "Why are you afraid?" or "Why are you arguing with each other?" or "Why did you doubt me?"

Matt 8:26 ~ Jesus responded, “Why are you afraid? You have so little faith!” Then he got up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly there was a great calm.
Matt 16:8 ~ Jesus knew what they were saying, so he said, “You have so little faith! Why are you arguing with each other about having no bread?
Matt 14:31 ~ Jesus immediately reached out and grabbed him. “You have so little faith,”Jesus said. “Why did you doubt me?”
Luke 7:9 ~ When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to the crowd that was following him, he said, “I tell you, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel!”

Jesus rebuked His Disciples before they were empowered by the Holy Spirit for their lack of faith. According to Kenneth Hagin's testimony the religious theology of that day (1930s) did more to discourage one's faith in the Words (teaching) of Jesus than increase one's faith in His Words (e.g. Mark 11:23-24).

So true - and it's one of the reasons why I think what Hagin did was timely since it served to begin a conversation on why faith in God was so key and why people needed to remember the importance of walking by faith. So many wonderful things would never have followed I think (including others discovering in their own denominational history others who echoed what Hagin was sharing when it came to the miraculous/trusting the Lord to do amazing and BIG things) if Hagin had not been around in the times he was.

The intent/purpose of the WOF Movement is to increase one's faith in the Living Word. How much Faith is needed other than to really, truly believe with all one's being. Any ministry that increases one's faith to see what is possible with God (that is impossible with man) is a part of today's WOF Movement. Jesus is the real "founder" of the New Testament WOF Movement. All the noted men and women of Faith that are respected by most (e.g. Hagin); while others are ridiculed by some (e.g. Hinn) are for the most part obedient servants of the Lord with special supernatural Giftings to Glorify God and advance His Kingdom on earth. It was the public ministry of Jesus in deliverance, healing and miracles that elevated the faith of many including one woman's faith that resulted in an instant healing.

Luke 8:43-48
43 And a woman who had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and could not be healed by anyone,
44 came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped.
45 And Jesus said, “Who is the one who touched Me?” And while they were all denying it, Peter said, “Master, the people are crowding and pressing in on You.”
46 But Jesus said, “Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me.”
47 When the woman saw that she had not escaped notice, she came trembling and fell down before Him, and declared in the presence of all the people the reason why she had touched Him, and how she had been immediately healed.
48 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”

Luke 8:18 ~ So pay attention to how you hear. To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what they think they understand will be taken away from them.
Luke 18:8 ~ ... But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?”

True - and I guess a good question would be how extensive is faith in the world that echoes what the Faith movement saw present in its camp