J
Jack Koons
Guest
Because the ‘thread’ this was posted in was a different topic, I have decided to open a new thread in order ‘stay on track’. The following was stated by me:
To which Ted replied:
While salvation (of the soul) is indeed an important topic from cover to cover in the scriptures, growth as a Christian, is just as important. One of the saddest things I see, is a person who has been saved for half a century, and doesn’t even know the books of the Bible. Imagine having a 50 year old person, who never grows physically beyond that of being an infant. That is where much of Christianity is. Please understand what I am saying Ted, we can save thousands of people today, (and that is all good); however, if we do not teach these new infants the teachings of the Bible, the destruction of Christianity, will come quickly. (That is exactly where America is today.)
Unfortunately Ted, I believe this is where the majority of Christendom is currently.
Well Ted, you are absolutely correct. But we have a problem. Allow me to give you a simple example:
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
In a class that I am currently teaching, this is one of the things I am covering. The first of the above is John 3:16 as seen in the Westcott/Hort Greek Text. The second is the John 3:16 in the Scrivener 1894 Greek Text. The only difference between the two is the word “αυτου” (his or the same), in reference to “εδωκεν” (he gave), which is referenced back to “θεος” (God). While this "αυτου" is not in the W/H GT, it is in every English Bible based on that GT. The difference in many modern English versions is the use of the words, “one and only” vs. “only begotten”. The problem here is that if one were to translate this verse from English to Greek using the words “one and only” it would not give you what is seen in the W/H GT.
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον ενα και μονοχογιος εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
The reason I say this is because to get ‘one “and” only’ you would have the conjunction και, but since the conjunction και is NOT in the Greek text, the word “and” should not be in the English text.
Since John 1:12 states, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”, and Romans 8:15 states, “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”; stating that God gave his “one and only” son, is not only factually incorrect, but grammatically and doctrinally incorrect as well.
Ted, how can people “check it out”, when the Bible they are to “check it out” in, has been changed?
Salvation is truly in the finished work of Christ, and not in any church, and/or fellowship.
Ted, I could not agree with you more. As I have already stated however, when the Bible we use as the “final authority” has been changed, and the scholars of our present day are for the most part blind; can we expect the students of these scholars to be any less blind?
Jack
I think it is very apparent that most Christians know little about the actual beliefs of even the church they attend; let alone a broad survey of Christendom.
To which Ted replied:
Good morning jack,
I am somewhat in agreement with that statement. However, I don't think an individual's salvation, and let's just get it out of the way now, that's what the Scriptures are all about, is measured by one's agreement with the 'fellowship' of believers they attend.
While salvation (of the soul) is indeed an important topic from cover to cover in the scriptures, growth as a Christian, is just as important. One of the saddest things I see, is a person who has been saved for half a century, and doesn’t even know the books of the Bible. Imagine having a 50 year old person, who never grows physically beyond that of being an infant. That is where much of Christianity is. Please understand what I am saying Ted, we can save thousands of people today, (and that is all good); however, if we do not teach these new infants the teachings of the Bible, the destruction of Christianity, will come quickly. (That is exactly where America is today.)
Yes, if one does buy into a lot of what some fellowships work to teach, it can certainly make the way of salvation more difficult to find. It can obfuscate (that one cost me a quarter) and lead one down a lot of rabbit holes, that are the work of many 'well intentioned' men who don't themselves have a clue and teach others to follow them. I believe that it is this very practice that Jesus was referring to when he spoke of a blind man leading a blind man. They both fall into the pit.
Unfortunately Ted, I believe this is where the majority of Christendom is currently.
I believe that every born again believer, and those seeking to be so, need to be like the Bereans. Fine to listen to what others have to say, but before deciding if it is the truth, check it out!
Well Ted, you are absolutely correct. But we have a problem. Allow me to give you a simple example:
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
In a class that I am currently teaching, this is one of the things I am covering. The first of the above is John 3:16 as seen in the Westcott/Hort Greek Text. The second is the John 3:16 in the Scrivener 1894 Greek Text. The only difference between the two is the word “αυτου” (his or the same), in reference to “εδωκεν” (he gave), which is referenced back to “θεος” (God). While this "αυτου" is not in the W/H GT, it is in every English Bible based on that GT. The difference in many modern English versions is the use of the words, “one and only” vs. “only begotten”. The problem here is that if one were to translate this verse from English to Greek using the words “one and only” it would not give you what is seen in the W/H GT.
ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον τον ενα και μονοχογιος εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
The reason I say this is because to get ‘one “and” only’ you would have the conjunction και, but since the conjunction και is NOT in the Greek text, the word “and” should not be in the English text.
Since John 1:12 states, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”, and Romans 8:15 states, “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.”; stating that God gave his “one and only” son, is not only factually incorrect, but grammatically and doctrinally incorrect as well.
Ted, how can people “check it out”, when the Bible they are to “check it out” in, has been changed?
Anyway, while one would be blessed to be a part of a fellowship that teaches only the truth, attendance in such a fellowship is not the measure of faith that God will be using. As far as I can tell, God is interested in the individual's heart. Whether an individual has discerned and put into practice in their life, the truth of God. As far as I can tell there is probably not a single whole fellowship that will be saved because of their inclusion in said fellowship.
Salvation is truly in the finished work of Christ, and not in any church, and/or fellowship.
Having said that, my encouragement for anyone is to first know the Scriptures for themselves. You see, unless an individual knows and has treasured in their heart the words of God, they will never know that they are being led astray. They will believe there is a purgatory because that's what the guy standing in front of them, and their overall fellowship, teach them is the truth. They will in fact be the blind man who is being led by a blind man.
I was sharing with someone on these threads just the other day and they commented that the genealogies of the account of lives in Genesis never mentioned years or length of lives. I replied with a mere copy of the first couple of genealogies and showed how it was written in the Scriptures that Adam was x number of years old when he had Seth and then went on to say just exactly how many years Adam lived until his death. The poster fairly quickly replied by withdrawing his statement and agreeing with me that his comment was incorrect. That poster had over 7,500 posts on these threads and didn't really have even the slightest knowledge of what was written in the first few words of the Scriptures. Sadly, I thought to myself, "I wonder how many blind men they had led?"
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Ted, I could not agree with you more. As I have already stated however, when the Bible we use as the “final authority” has been changed, and the scholars of our present day are for the most part blind; can we expect the students of these scholars to be any less blind?
Jack
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