Women's pastors?

[twin1954]

That's a tough question, and I don't have a perfect answer to it. My best understanding is that if someone known the Gospel and there is legitimately no one he can turn to to be ordained to preach it, then he may go and preach it. This is not normative and very rare.

The simple truth is that God ordains men to the office and not men. Men recognize the gift of God in a man and so does the church but the official "ordination" is a man made ceremony. God raises up His men for a certain work, gifts and prepares them for it and puts them in it. When God does so it cannot be denied by men.

 

[abacabb3]

The simple truth is that God ordains men to the office and not men. Men recognize the gift of God in a man and so does the church but the official "ordination" is a man made ceremony. God raises up His men for a certain work, gifts and prepares them for it and puts them in it. When God does so it cannot be denied by men.

Yes, thanks for elaborating upon that. I forget what Epistle it is, but Paul says that God has appointed so and so to be elders. I was just working out how the process visually appears. If no man recognized that God has set you aside to lead His people, then God hasn't set you aside.

 

[twin1954]

Yes, thanks for elaborating upon that. I forget what Epistle it is, but Paul says that God has appointed so and so to be elders. I was just working out how the process visually appears. If no man recognized that God has set you aside to lead His people, then God hasn't set you aside.

Let me put it this way, I know that God has called me to preach His Gospel because He opens the door and puts me where He would have me without me ever seeking it. Yet I do not know that God has called me to pastor, though I desire to with my whole soul, because He hasn't put me in that place. I wait on Him. I do not send out resume's or call on churches or put myself out there in order to get the job. I just wait for Him to put me in the place He has prepared me for. If God calls a man to pastor He puts the man and the sheep together and they both know it is God's doing.

 

[abacabb3]

Let me put it this way, I know that God has called me to preach His Gospel because He opens the door and puts me where He would have me without me ever seeking it. Yet I do not know that God has called me to pastor, though I desire to with my whole soul, because He hasn't put me in that place. I wait on Him. I do not send out resume's or call on churches or put myself out there in order to get the job. I just wait for Him to put me in the place He has prepared me for. If God calls a man to pastor He puts the man and the sheep together and they both know it is God's doing.

We're all called to preach the Gospel to some degree. We're not all called to be deacons or elders.

 

[Bluelion]

you two want to pair off and start your own religion? i jest.

 

[NannaNae]

I find it very troubling that the liberals on this issue don't understand that the Scripture is interpreted by a community of believers, and not by all of us individually coming to our own private interpretations. "No prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20).

We ignore the testimony of tradition at our own peril. Luther did not do away with tradition. Calvin didn't. No man of God has. However, plenty of heretics and their heresies have purposely lambasted against tradition. We must be wary of wolves in sheep's clothing.

hum? SO if this is really all about men oppionions so who was more correct Pharisee or Sadducee? is it possible for consensuses to get it all wrong , even a little hot with a little cold until it is all luke warm ? Science has it almost all wrong they do got that way by one censuses after another

 

[Bluelion]

hum? SO if this is really all about men oppionions so who was more correct Pharisee or Sadducee? is it possible for consensuses to get it all wrong , even a little hot with a little cold until it is all luke warm ? Science has it almost all wrong they do got that way by one censuses after another

wait did you just say science was wrong? I thought I was the only such animal

 

[twin1954]

We're all called to preach the Gospel to some degree. We're not all called to be deacons or elders.

True but I am talking specifically about preaching from the pulpit to a congregation.

I do a lot of travelling all around the country filling in for men when they are away from their flock or preaching for groups who have no pastor yet. Everywhere I go the pastor or the people ask me to come. I wait on the Lord to open whatever door He sees fit to open. I have been asked a few times to become a pastor but I wasn't convinced by the Spirit I was their man. I will not run where I haven't been sent.

 

[twin1954]

you two want to pair off and start your own religion? i jest.

We don't need to Christ already has.

 

[tulipbee]

That's a tough question, and I don't have a perfect answer to it. My best understanding is that if someone known the Gospel and there is legitimately no one he can turn to to be ordained to preach it, then he may go and preach it. This is not normative and very rare.

Laying of hands can go a long way. Laying of hands can go from RRC into protestantism. Laying of hands multiplies . Multiplying over 2,000 years means a lot heads been laid hands on.
It can be done through the handshakes. Lets count how many handshakes happen in 2,000 years. That's why the RRC can't keep a small list and narrow ordination to a smaller group to a single pope. That's why they can't prove apostlic succession. They lost some records in the beginning.

Why would Jesus request us to spend our time recording one trillion trillion laying of hands by name ?

So ordination had to be something else other than what I just said.

I might have change the subject in this post.

 

[Bluelion]

True but I am talking specifically about preaching from the pulpit to a congregation.

I do a lot of travelling all around the country filling in for men when they are away from their flock or preaching for groups who have no pastor yet. Everywhere I go the pastor or the people ask me to come. I wait on the Lord to open whatever door He sees fit to open. I have been asked a few times to become a pastor but I wasn't convinced by the Spirit I was their man. I will not run where I haven't been sent.

when your called to that there is no doubt, you know your called, it very much like being called to repent.

 

[Bluelion]

We don't need to Christ already has.

I thought he was just speaking truth, that's a religion now? I jest.

 

[abacabb3]

is it possible for consensuses to get it all wrong , even a little hot with a little cold until it is all luke warm ? Science has it almost all wrong they do got that way by one censuses after another

The Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us into all truth (John 16:13). So, no, I don't think that the vast majority of exegetes for all time can be wrong on such a clear subject, otherwise the Holy SPirit has failed in His mission.

What I am saying is a very simple point. If one looks at Church History, the heretics are always the ones with new ideas that you simply cannot find in the Scripture, or within orthodox tradition. Essentially, those who oppose the traditional viewpoint on this issue believe the vast preponderance of the Church has had an heterodox opinion on this matter since the very beginning until the 1960s. Sorry, I find that hard to swallow.

 

[Bluelion]

The Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us into all truth (John 16:13). So, no, I don't think that the vast majority of exegetes for all time can be wrong on such a clear subject, otherwise the Holy SPirit has failed in His mission.

What I am saying is a very simple point. If one looks at Church History, the heretics are always the ones with new ideas that you simply cannot find in the Scripture, or within orthodox tradition. Essentially, those who oppose the traditional viewpoint on this issue believe the vast preponderance of the Church has had an heterodox opinion on this matter since the very beginning until the 1960s. Sorry, I find that hard to swallow.

The New testament is based on a New idea, Jews thought it was a new age movement to and they wanted there traditions well tough

 

[OzSpen]

tulipbee,

I was having a conversation with my parents when I was young. I was asking about different denominations. I asked who are the presbyterians. They replied that they take the bible and modernize or explain it to fit today's culture. In others words up to date. Presbyterians are also Calvinists.

Technically, that is not what defines a Presbyterian. Generally, the Westminster Confession of Faith and TULIP are key doctrinal emphases of Presbyterians. However, many have become theological modernist or postmodernist and these emphases are gone or very diluted. Even though I'm ordained with a Baptistic denomination, I attend a local Presbyterian church here in Australia as my wife is a gifted musician and plays piano in the music team. The continuing Presbyterians in Australia are evangelical. The liberal Presbyterians joined the Uniting Church in Australia.

Thanks for your other emphases and that women in Ephesus (according to 1 Tim) were possibly teaching error. My understanding is that these women had to be quietened. It is addressing a specific situation (with application to lots of women teaching error throughout church history), but it was not designed for the absolute silencing of women preachers and teachers.

Taking that position from an exegetical perspective has earned me lots of flack in this thread.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You don't have to, this was already addressed, being Apostle or Missionary does not necessarily make one an Elder in the Church, which carries governing authority.

It makes one a church leader. There are many missionary women in remote places of the globe who are in a prominent position of leadership in the local church. I have a missionary friend from the Philippines who has recently retired. She came to speak at our church a few weeks ago. I had a good, long talk with her about her leadership roles as a female mission on the field.

She had prominent authority in the local church. 'Governing authority' (your language) is not biblical language as far as I can see.

 

[abacabb3]

The New testament is based on a New idea, Jews thought it was a new age movement to and they wanted there traditions well tough

It still does not address my Scriptural point. God Himself made a promise, the question is, how can the "truth" changing 2,000 years later, contradicting His earlier revelation, be consistent with a God that tells the truth?

 

[OzSpen]

He did see the resurrected Christ, making him an Apostle.

You did not need to see the resurrected Christ to be an apostle according to 1 Cor 12:27-31 and Eph 4:11-14. I do wish you would read the whole of the NT to get an understanding of who were apostles.

 

[OzSpen]

If a person is "among the trees", does that make them a tree?

If that is the way you deal with my detailed exegesis of Rom 16:7, I will not respond to you any further. Being among the apostles was like my being among the other musicians playing guitar. I was one of the musicians.

 

[OzSpen]

So again, it appears there is a "controversy" only when one wants to look at verses like 1 Timothy 2, etc, in a way as to ignore it's prohibition on women in church authority. Otherwise, it's just fine to leave it as is. All we have is speculation.
Now, let us, for the sake of argument, say Junia was a female apostle. This does not mean she had authority in the church. Remember, Paul mentions her in conjunction with her husband, denoting her submission to him. If we look at the verses in the light of a woman who is submitting to her husband, then nothing changes. We have a woman, either as an apostle, or an apostle, who had a gift of ministry. Missionaries have the gift of ministry. Comforters of the sick and those who've recently lost loved ones, is a ministry in the church. Teaching children and other women, is a ministry in the church. Deacons (or deaconesses) have the ministry of helping within the church, yet hold no authority.
Now this all ignores that in Jewish culture at this time, women were always listed under their husbands in greetings, but that's a little beside the point right now. So you see, you've jumped to a conclusion not supported by the facts at hand. You assume that because she might be a female apostle, she somehow had authority in the church. However, now we must start ignoring the plain words of other scriptures, and must now start trying to twist them to fit the hermeneutic you've just invented, based on a current sociopolitical view.

I provided you with detailed exegesis of Rom 16:7 and Junia being a female apostle and this is what I got from you. You were the one who challenged me to demonstrate that she was a female. I did that, and now you come back with this red herring that did not address what I exegeted in Rom 16:7.

I will not take you seriously again in this thread when you ask me to demonstrate a theological point. You have treated my exegesis as something to be ignored. Not once in your response did you deal with my exegesis, thus making your response a red herring. We can't have a logical conversation when you do this.

Bye.