Women's pastors?

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Metal Minister

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So Junia as an apostle and Deborah a prophetess who judged Israel and they were not overseers of the church or God's nation. I'm missing something here??

You may be putting the cart a bit ahead of the horse Oz. Perhaps start by proving Junia was a woman first, since as has been said, many men bore that name as well.
 
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twin1954

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You’re too late to tell me that. William and Catherine Booth (evangelists and pastors) founded the Salvation Army. Catherine was a co-founder, a prominent woman in ministry who was gifted by God. Today there are Salvation Army female officers around the world who are functioning – yes, functioning – as women pastors.


Catherine Booth, co-founder of the Salvation Army (courtesy Wikipedia)​
220px-Catherinebooth.jpg


See 'The Women in Leadership' emphasis in the Salvation Army in Australia.


Though she may have acted as a pastor that in no way means that she was called of God to it. Just as many men today who act as pastors are not called of God to it.

Just because someone takes the position and office of pastor to themselves doesn't mean that they are of God nor that they are called of God.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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How it came about that women began to preach and to usurp authority over Christian men in the Church is both an interesting and revealing story. The story begins with John Wesley and his belief that Christian theology should be based upon four things:

  • Scripture
  • Tradition
  • Experience
  • Reason

This concept is known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Scripture is always of foremost importance, but according to Wesley it should never be studied apart from its historical interpretation and application. Belief in the Bible apart from the experience of it in one’s life does not constitute genuine faith—and the Christian experience must extend beyond one’s self into Christian service. Moreover, one’s beliefs must be capable of being defended in a rational manner based upon sound reasoning.

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is the theological basis of the Methodist Church. The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the Pentecostal churches (of which the Assemblies of God is the largest denomination) are all outgrowths of the Methodist Church and its Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

Wesley never imagined that his Quadrilateral would be so severely abused as to “justify” women serving as elders in the Church, but once personal Christian experience was allowed to have a voice in the formation of theology, it rapidly began to take dominance over Scripture. In 1859, Catherine Booth (a co-founder of the Salvation Army) wrote and published a pamphlet entitled, “Female Ministry: Woman’s Right to Preach the Gospel.” This pamphlet was written in defense of her new role model, the American Wesleyan revivalist Phoebe Palmer who, with her husband Walter, moved to the United Kingdom in 1859 where they lived and preached for several years—with Phoebe as the dominant partner.

Along with experience, reason also came to be severely abused, and women argued vehemently from reason (and by taking Scriptures out of context) in support of their new and novel doctrine. Most unfortunately, the fourth part of the Quadrilateral, tradition, was brushed aside.

Human beings have shown themselves to be capable of persuading themselves to believe almost anything—including the belief that their new and novel doctrines really are taught in the Bible.
 
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OzSpen

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Originally Posted by twin1954
Which is part of the reason why I will not give to the salvation army. Almost all the heretical groups in modern history were started by women. Both Booths hated the God of the Bible , Calvinism) and vehemently wrote and spoke against Him.
This is an inflammatory statement. You are flaming me.

This biographical piece, ‘Founders William & Catherine Booth’, refutes your view. Since William and Catherine Booth were not Calvinists, does that make their views heretical?

I’m not a Calvinist. Does that make my views heretical? Do I not worship the God of the Bible because my theological conclusion is not that of your Calvinism?

Are you telling all those who are not Calvinists, including all the non-Calvinists on CF, that they are not worshipping the God of the Bible and are thus heretics?

“You folks can twist and skew and spew all the nonsense that you want to justify an unbiblical position”.
This also is flaming others and me. When will you quit doing this?

Oz
 
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abacabb3

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Abacabb, the apostle question is separate to this because I don't see Scripture calls anyone else apostles but the 12, the one who took over Judas spot and Paul. I'm not convinced the chosen one by the Apostles is legitimate apostle.

I don't think your position on this would be orthodox. Quite a few men (Paul for example) are called Aostles but they are not the Twelve. The classification appears to be given based uon firsthand experience with the resurrected Lord.
 
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OzSpen

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Abacabb, the apostle question is separate to this because I don't see Scripture calls anyone else apostles but the 12, the one who took over Judas spot and Paul. I'm not convinced the chosen one by the Apostles is legitimate apostle.

You are overlooking some important Scriptures.
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts (1 Cor 12:27-31 ESV).
The expected answer in Greek to all of these questions is, 'No'. However, it does mean that God was still giving the gift of apostle at the time Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

Go to Ephesians 4:11-14,
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes (ESV).
So at the time of Paul writing to the Ephesians the gift of apostles was still given for equipping believers for ministry and building up the body of Christ. The Ephesians needed such a ministry and so do we today.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Originally Posted by Metal Minister
You may be putting the cart a bit ahead of the horse Oz. Perhaps start by proving Junia was a woman first, since as has been said, many men bore that name as well.


Metal,

I've been down that road more times than I care to remember.

Junia and Romans 16:7

This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.” These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse.

Literally, the Greek reads (English translation): “Greet Andronicus and Junia/the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ.”

The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, “among the apostles.” If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.

This is a brief examination of these 3 points.

a. The gender of Junia.

The Greek form, Jounian (from Junias), depending on the Greek accent given to it, could be either masculine or feminine. So the person could be a man, Junianus, or a woman, Junia. “Interpreters from the thirteenth to the middle of the twentieth century generally favored the masculine identification, but it appears that commentators before the thirteenth century were unanimous in favor of the feminine identification; and scholars have recently again inclined decisively to this same view. And for probably good reason.... The Latin ‘Junia’ was a very common name. Probably, then, ‘Junia’ was the wife of Andronicus (note the other husband and wife pairs in this list, Prisca and Aquila [v. 3] and [probably], Philologus and Julia [v. 15]”.[1]

b. Is Junia a female apostle

The phrase “esteemed/notable by the apostles” is a possible Greek construction as in the ESV.[2] But it is more natural to translate as “esteemed/notable among the apostles,” as with the NIV.
Why is it more natural? See this footnote.[3]

Andronicus and Junia were possibly a husband and wife team of apostles.[4]

c. Junia is therefore a female apostle.

This means that Junia was a female apostle, not one of the Twelve, but one of the ministry gifts of Christ to the church (See Eph. 4:11) – an apostle who was a woman.

Notes
[1] Douglas G. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1996, pp. 921-922.
[2] This is using the preposition, ev, in its instrumental sense.
[3] With a plural object [apostles], ev often means ‘among’; and if Paul had wanted to say that Andronicus and Junia were esteemed ‘by’ the apostles, we would have expected him to use a simple dative [case] or [the preposition] hupo with the genitive [case]. The word epistemoi (‘splendid,’ ‘prominent,’ ‘outstanding’; only here in the NT in this sense [cf. also Matt. 27:16]) also favors this rendering” (Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, p. 923, n. 39,).
[4] Gordon Fee says that that Rom. 16:7 refers to “probably Andronicus and his wife [Junia]” (I Corinthians, 1987, Eerdmans, p. 729, n. 80).

I'm not holding my breath waiting for positive feedback from those supporting a traditionalist interpretation.

Regards,
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Oz, I didn't overlook Paul, because a stated his name. When Paul writes, "Are all Apostles?" Doesn't mean it was continually given out to others at that time.

I'm not going to discuss that further here. It's not a topic on women.

It most definitely is a topic on women as Romans 16:7 demonstrates with Junia, a female, among the apostles - apostles that were not the 12 apostles.
 
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mikedsjr

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Princetonguy,

Did you notice that John Wesley was born during Romanticism period. So it should be no surprise his theology valued emotion.

Which brings me to today's time period. Modernism/Postmodernism. It should be no surprise many Christians today support women as preachers. They reflect the philosophical age period they have grown up in. People don't want to admit they are blinded by the philosophical age they live in, but they are. That's why you don't see the same problems in today's church, per se, as Paul wrote about in Scripture. He dealt with the philosophical view of that day.

You find a church with a belief women can be pastors and I'll find a church that doesn't truly value Sola Scriptura. The odds are in my favor that I could listen to a sermon today by a church who values women can be preachers and find Scripture taken out of context to fit needs of their church. It's no wonder there are Baptist who believe women can be pastors. They're sitting under men and women who don't rightly and soundly handle God's word week after week.

It is my position this topic is about context of Scripture and how this philosophical age hates it. And yet my implication has nothing to do with a person's salvation. If we are saved based on our consistency with Scripture, none of us would make it.
 
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OzSpen

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Princetonguy,
Did you notice that John Wesley was born during Romanticism period. So it should be no surprise his theology valued emotion.

So what happened to the people when Jonathan Edwards, a Calvinist, preached, 'Sinners in the hands of an angry God'? Sure sounds like the people had lots of emotions in their responses. Take a read of some of the responses HERE.

You didn't have to be only a John Wesley to get this kind of response.
 
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OzSpen

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You find a church with a belief women can be pastors and I'll find a church that doesn't truly value Sola Scriptura. The odds are in my favor that I could listen to a sermon today by a church who values women can be preachers and find Scripture taken out of context to fit needs of their church. It's no wonder there are Baptist who believe women can be pastors. They're sitting under men and women who don't rightly and soundly handle God's word week after week.

You may find some like that. However, I have a very high view of the inerrancy of Scripture and I've been attempting to exegete the inerrant Scripture in this thread and then you come up with this kind of inflammatory view. With this kind of analysis, you have committed a logical fallacy: Appeal to consequences of a belief.

We cannot have a logical discussion when you pursue this kind of illogic (that's what a logical fallacy is).

Oz
 
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tulipbee

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Sorry if I am missing dark humor here or something, but there were smart, educated women back then too. However, that is not the point. 21st century education does not abrogate what Paul wrote, because he was not writing his own opinion. Most Christians think that he was writing according what the Spirit had him write, so in effect God wrote it...

Essentially, you would be calling God's concerns irrelevant today.

I believe God wrote the bible and it should be interpreted for our modern today's culture. If I were to ask women to wear dresses and head coverings, the I would be in dark humor
 
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tulipbee

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Which is part of the reason why I will not give to the salvation army. Almost all the heretical groups in modern history were started by women. Both Booths hated the God of the Bible , Calvinism) and vehemently wrote and spoke against Him.

Though she may have acted as a pastor that in no way means that she was called of God to it. Just as many men today who act as pastors are not called of God to it.

Just because someone takes the position and office of pastor to themselves doesn't mean that they are of God nor that they are called of God.

You folks can twist and skew and spew all the nonsense that you want to justify an unbiblical position but the Scriptures are very clear on this point and you cannot get around it without making the Scriptures to be of no value. You are trying to argue from the unclear to the clear and it simply cannot be done. Instead of trying to deny the clear statements of the Scriptures you need to bow to them.

Sorry in upset you in my last post and I got destroyed.

I'm curious as strong as your are, how do you feel about women running for president of United States or would that be different in some ways?
 
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tulipbee

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Originally Posted by twin1954

This is an inflammatory statement. You are flaming me.

This biographical piece, ‘Founders William & Catherine Booth’, refutes your view. Since William and Catherine Booth were not Calvinists, does that make their views heretical?

I’m not a Calvinist. Does that make my views heretical? Do I not worship the God of the Bible because my theological conclusion is not that of your Calvinism?

Are you telling all those who are not Calvinists, including all the non-Calvinists on CF, that they are not worshipping the God of the Bible and are thus heretics?


This also is flaming others and me. When will you quit doing this?

Oz

I was having a conversation with my parents when I was young. I was asking about different denominations. I asked who are the presbyterians. They replied that they take the bible and modernize or explain it to fit today's culture. In others words up to date. Presbyterians are also Calvinists.

Education was the issue in Paul's days :

Given women’s lack of training in the Scriptures…the heresy spreading in the Ephesian churches through ignorant teachers (1:4-7), and the false teachers exploitation of these women’s lack of knowledge to spread their errors (5:13; 2 Tim. 3:6), Paul’s prohibition here makes good sense.
......-The IVP Bible Background Commentary


Most churches today are outdated like cars in cuba. They're afriad of the modern cultures. Today, we shouldn't degrade women like we did during the slavery days.

Those days are over.
 
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tulipbee

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I don't think your position on this would be orthodox. Quite a few men (Paul for example) are called Aostles but they are not the Twelve. The classification appears to be given based uon firsthand experience with the resurrected Lord.

At least all of the 66 books bible was inspired by God. Its pretty good that God dominationed Paul's hands and forced him to write God's words, word for word, in absolute perfection without a single flaw.
Flawless writers amazes me even if they never seen Jesus.
 
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abacabb3

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I'm not holding my breath waiting for positive feedback from those supporting a traditionalist interpretation.

You don't have to, this was already addressed, being Apostle or Missionary does not necessarily make one an Elder in the Church, which carries governing authority.
 
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abacabb3

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At least all of the 66 books bible was inspired by God. Its pretty good that God dominationed Paul's hands and forced him to write God's words, word for word, in absolute perfection without a single flaw.
Flawless writers amazes me even if they never seen Jesus.

He did see the resurrected Christ, making him an Apostle.
 
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Bluelion

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You don't have to, this was already addressed, being Apostle or Missionary does not necessarily make one an Elder in the Church, which carries governing authority.

as far as I know an Apostle is the highest it goes, if that is not an elder what is?


edit wait correction Son and daughter of God is as high as it goes :)
 
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