former Christians who became Muslim what made you turn away from Jesus ?

dcalling

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You believe Muhammad once said this?

I believe he said no such thing!

For your information it was Muslims who allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem whereas under the Byzantines they weren't allowed to live there. Indeed when Muslims first began moving against the Byzantine Empire, Jews arose to support them.

In any case, there were only about 2000 Jews living in Constantinople during the middle ages.

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6924.
Chapter : Pertaining to the conquest of Constantinople and the appearance of the Dajjal and descent of Jesus son of Mary (Jesus Christ).

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Medina (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army). which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).



Sunan Abu Dawud:

Book 37, Number 4281:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal).

Book 37, Number 4282:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.

Book 37, Number 4283:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.
 
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simplegifts

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Paul likes to play the switcharoo game. Let's look at four verses and I'm going to use Christian translations:

Isaiah 59:20-21
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to them that turn from transgression in Jacob, said the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, said the LORD; My spirit that is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, said the LORD, from now on and for ever.


Romans 11:26-27
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Now, look at how Paul has modified the original to suit his purpose. The redeemer will come to Zion not to the people that have turned from transgressions but to turn the people from transgression. He also adds this "when I take away their sins" part for.. uh.. reasons?

Subtle, but it completely changes the words of Isaiah into something they are not.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Why shouldn't he? Is Paul really trying not to add new meaning? There is a New Covenant with the Gentiles and Jews alike through Christ.

Jews are still a favored people because of their pious fathers. Some day Jews will not hate the Gentiles and more importantly the Gospel message.
 
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smaneck

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And all this has what to do with your assertion that Muhammad predicted that 80K Jews would?

Incidentally, there is another hadith which states:

"Their weapons will be the weapons of Iman (faith) - they will conquer
Constantinople without material weapons." - Ibn Majah

The bottom line is that ahadith were not compiled until two or three centuries after Muhammad and are therefore not reliable sources for the historian.

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6924.
Chapter : Pertaining to the conquest of Constantinople and the appearance of the Dajjal and descent of Jesus son of Mary (Jesus Christ).

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Medina (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army). which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).



Sunan Abu Dawud:

Book 37, Number 4281:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal).

Book 37, Number 4282:
Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.

Book 37, Number 4283:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.
 
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smaneck

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Jews are still a favored people because of their pious fathers. Some day Jews will not hate the Gentiles and more importantly the Gospel message.

I think you got it backwards. It is Christians who have the history of hating and persecuting Jews.
 
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LoAmmi

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Why shouldn't he? Is Paul really trying not to add new meaning? There is a New Covenant with the Gentiles and Jews alike through Christ.
Why shouldn't he misquote scripture? Here's a better question: Why should I listen to a person who misquotes scripture deliberately. I don't believe in your New Covenant.
Jews are still a favored people because of their pious fathers. Some day Jews will not hate the Gentiles and more importantly the Gospel message.

HAHAHAHAHHA great joke!

Oh, wait, you're serious? Yeah, cause it was us that put you in ghettos, performed pogroms, and killed one third of your whole people.....
 
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dcalling

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And all this has what to do with your assertion that Muhammad predicted that 80K Jews would?

Incidentally, there is another hadith which states:

"Their weapons will be the weapons of Iman (faith) - they will conquer
Constantinople without material weapons." - Ibn Majah

The bottom line is that ahadith were not compiled until two or three centuries after Muhammad and are therefore not reliable sources for the historian.

woops, missed the important hadithes that confirms my quote. But I did make an mistake, Muhammad didn't say 80k Jews, he said 70k Jews:

Book 41, Number 6985:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.



Book 41, Number 7034:
Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.


There are a lot of Muslims sites telling this too, that is where I initially learned this. Since there are many ahadith of the same story (about appear of anti-christ and Constantinople), I would think it is authentic. So the Dajia won't appear till Constantinople is conquered, and the Dajia is a one eyed Jew who lead 70K jews and Muslims will fight them till they can't hide behind any tree or stone. If all those ahadith are wrong then I would argue the Quran can be wrong as well.
 
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harvester77

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This is why I am a Christian. One cannot save ourselves by good works: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is a key difference between Christianity and Islam. Islam teaches that a person can earn paradise by keeping the Five Pillars. Even if possible to outweigh bad deeds with good deeds, the Bible teaches that “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Even one single sin makes a person guilty of breaking all God’s law (James 2:10). Sinful humans can do nothing to merit heaven.
 
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smaneck

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woops, missed the important hadithes that confirms my quote. But I did make an mistake, Muhammad didn't say 80k Jews, he said 70k Jews

You are also totally misreading the hadith. Dajjal is the Arabic word for the Anti-Christ. What it is suggesting is that seventy thousand Iranian Jews will fight on the side of the Anti-Christ not that Muslims will massacre eighty thousands Jews will be slaughter when Muslims conquer Constantinople. You have turned these ahadith on their head.

If all those ahadith are wrong then I would argue the Quran can be wrong as well.

Why? No one ever indicated ahadith were infallible. The Qur'an was compiled in its present form less than a generation after the Prophet's passing while Companions to the Prophet were still alive to attest to its validity. Ahadith, however, were compiled two to three centuries later and carried down orally until that time. Ever play telephone?
 
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smaneck

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This is why I am a Christian. One cannot save ourselves by good works: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is a key difference between Christianity and Islam. Islam teaches that a person can earn paradise by keeping the Five Pillars. Even if possible to outweigh bad deeds with good deeds, the Bible teaches that “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Even one single sin makes a person guilty of breaking all God’s law (James 2:10). Sinful humans can do nothing to merit heaven.

I'll grant you Christianity sells the best fire insurance, but is that really what religion is about? Rabi'a a Muslim mystic who lived in the 8th century wrote the following:

If I love Thee in fear of hell
May I burn in hell
If I love Thee in hope of paradise
Bar me from paradise
But if I love Thee for Thine own sake
Deprive me not of the Beauty of Thy Face
 
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This is why I am a Christian. One cannot save ourselves by good works: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is a key difference between Christianity and Islam. Islam teaches that a person can earn paradise by keeping the Five Pillars. Even if possible to outweigh bad deeds with good deeds, the Bible teaches that “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Even one single sin makes a person guilty of breaking all God’s law (James 2:10). Sinful humans can do nothing to merit heaven.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “No one’s deeds will ever admit him to Paradise.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “No, not even me, unless Allah showers me with His Mercy. So try to be near to perfection. And no one should wish for death; he is either doing good so he will do more of that, or he is doing wrong so he may repent.”
[al-Bukhari, Muslim]
 
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harvester77

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I believe God did not out us here to give us an exam on life lass or fail. It is more supernatural than that but of courwe good works is pleasing to the Lord just Christ is more supernatural outside pur realm of thinking then following 5 pillars however I am opening to learning and certainly think all Abrahamic religion have element of truth.
 
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smaneck

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Nope Jesus is supernatural. No pass or fail tests. No need for me to rethink. Like I said I would prefer x Christians to answer sorry for being rude but your points do not interest me as I am really looking for ex Christians. Thanks

I'm an ex-Christian and had I been out only to save my own skin, I suppose I would have remained a Christian. But I was more interested in redeeming the world and therefore Christianity was not enough for me.
And by the way, I don't know any Muslim who thinks following the Five Pillars gets you into Paradise.
 
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dcalling

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You are also totally misreading the hadith. Dajjal is the Arabic word for the Anti-Christ. What it is suggesting is that seventy thousand Iranian Jews will fight on the side of the Anti-Christ not that Muslims will massacre eighty thousands Jews will be slaughter when Muslims conquer Constantinople. You have turned these ahadith on their head.

What you said didn't differ much from mine. Multiple muslim sites also come to the same conclusion. Many ahaidths indicates the end will come at the conquer of Constantinople, and at the end anti-christ will come out with 70k Jews, and the Muslims will fight them that none of them can hide.

Why? No one ever indicated ahadith were infallible. The Qur'an was compiled in its present form less than a generation after the Prophet's passing while Companions to the Prophet were still alive to attest to its validity. Ahadith, however, were compiled two to three centuries later and carried down orally until that time. Ever play telephone?
They are all compiled after the death of Muhammad. Quran is more authentic. So if you can suspect the authentic ahadith with multiple citings, Quran can only be certain degree of more trust.
 
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smaneck

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What you said didn't differ much from mine.

Saying that after Muslims will slaughter 80,000 Jews after the conquer Constantinople is the same as saying that in the Last Days 70,000 Jews will follow the anti-Christ?

You have a funny way of reading a text!

They are all compiled after the death of Muhammad.

There is a big difference in compiling a text while the people who witnessed its revelation are still alive, versus compiling it two or three centuries later based on hearsay.
 
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