Saddleback Church supports wife batterers

[Alithis]

the 'terminology' of 'prophetic license' means that God has revealed it to one, and they speak with the authority of God on a matter....

your explanation of it, sounds like you are saying the written Word of God is clear and therefore one must agree with your interpretation of such as authoritative... one may have a view of what the Scripture says on the matter in contrast to yours...

neither explanation of 'prophetic license' is something that one can claim here...

to say that God revealed prophetically in your mind, or in the written Word, that this person must take the abuse from the abusive husband to be in God's will ... is directive to her unique situation...

except i didn't say that and its not what i meant.. your choosing to read it that way.even after i explained what i meant.
please don't goad me by misrepresenting me.
and to appease i have edited the word to mannerisms .

 

[Alithis]

unsubscribed.....
tbh - i find being misunderstood difficult to deal with.
-updated post -

 

[murjahel]

1 Corinthians 7:10-16 (KJV)
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Notice the darkened words... Sometimes we take what the Bible says and do not read some inserts that indicate a bit different than our assumptions.

In part, Paul was 'inspired' of God in his instructions. In another part, he was dealing with a specific situation, and his words were not to be 'inspired' for all situations, but his opinion based on the particular situation there.

There are, and Paul recognized this, some situations, where a 'wife' could depart, and not be sinning... In a case of 'abuse', for the safety of the wife, sometimes even the children, one might depart and not be under the bondage of the wedding ceremony. Paul was giving an opinion, not necessarily inspired of God for every situation.

So, this is 'BIBLICAL inspiration', and if we add some message that God gives us for a particular situation, we call that PROPHETIC INSPIRATION, and of course, all of those need tested...

There are many situations that a pastor and/or counselor may encounter in ministry. It would be simpler if they all had the same answer. Even Paul admits here, that a part of his answer here, is his opinion, and would not be Godly inspiration to be used in every situation.

In some situations, the abuse may start with the wife, progress to the children, be unrepented by the abuser, and grow to a level that for their safety, for the mental effects on the wife, and on impressive minds of the children, it is wise to end the marriage. The fact that God had Paul insert the phrase 'to the rest, speak I, not the Lord' means we need to not try to apply Paul's advice, wise as it may have been then, for that situation, to every situation thinking we have God's advice for all...

 

[SFerber]

Indeed, the church taught separation and not divorce in the situation where physical injury was present.

This is why I appealed numerous times to the heart of the leadership all to no avail. I wanted their help not their backs.

 

[mourningdove~]

Indeed, the church taught separation and not divorce in the situation where physical injury was present.

This is why I appealed numerous times to the heart of the leadership all to no avail. I wanted their help not their backs.

God bless you.

I don't know much about your journey ...
and I don't need to know more now ...
but no doubt it has been a 'challenging' one.

And yet, God was with you always in it, and still is ...

God bless.

 

[Hetta]

it is too sensitive a topic ,too prone to emotional response to really discuss here.
there is a principle of faith that is overlooked far too often ..being belief in God and his ableness to work in our life good from every situation.

look at it from say..the aspect of foxes book of martyrs.. read their testimony of christ..their willingness to be ,not only beaten ,but put to death with false accusation.

then exchange their corrupt official who has physical power over them ,their cruel guard and tormentor their execution ..their prison bars..they could not cry ,,iv had enough im out of here... and when given opportunity to deny faith and be free,they chose death so as not to discredit the Gospel.
And contrast it to emotional bars where the only thing confining a person is the choice to forgive those that sin against us and have faith that God is able to change the heart of any person or deal with them as he sees fit.. but that is the path of faith,cost,the cross...the churches have opted for worldly methods... with no spiritual power to bind the spirits of violence and rage because they walk in unbelief and trust the worlds way over God with whom nothing is impossible ..yet evidence is blatant..the worlds way of dealing with it has not ceased to see exponential increase in domestic violence

it all tells me there is a walk in faith where our desire to know...from Godly love..even our captive and tormentor ,saved and transformed by the power wrought through the blood of christ Jesus.. a faith perfected in such love that we will endure ANYTHING to see salvation worked in the most horrendous soul .A faith we've not known in our age a faith that cries out .."the cross or nothing"
but this contemporary christianity no longer believes with all their heart that God is able... so i observe,when the going gets tough ,when the demons rage loud and violent.. we of this western church...run for the worlds embrace...

i speak with prophetic license in my presentation so i come across pointed ,direct ,black and white.. some have trouble seeing past that to the essence of what im saying .which is founded in Godly love.A benevolence so great,so perfect it endures any suffering and counts it a joy to do so, to bring about
the realization of the salvation of God in anothers life ..without which, only an incomprehensible horror eternally awaits them.

Your self proclaimed "prophetic license" doesn't allow you to tell an abused person that they must martyr themselves. SMH.

 

[SFerber]

God bless you.

I don't know much about your journey ...
and I don't need to know more now ...
but no doubt it has been a 'challenging' one.

And yet, God was with you always in it, and still is ...

God bless.

Indeed God is ever present. He as been good to my family and I and he kept our hearts supple.

I hope the misunderstandings in this post can be overlooked and that you all can come to the table. Being misunderstood is a part of the walk we have. Lead out with love and seek not to be understood...seek to understand.

God bless each of you and my this Thanksgiving bring a blessing beyond measure.

This is something I wrote for my husband back then...I pray you are blessed by it.

I SINCERELY PRAYED FOR YOU TODAY


by Sheri Ferber


God Asked me to stop what I was doing
and pray for you today



At first I wasn't sure if I could find the words
or move aside long enough for the Spirit to have His way

I know the power of prayer has moved mountains
in the lives of countless friends

If it weren't for willing intercessors
who could say what would have become of them?

I know my hope is in the ONE who gave His life for me
so how could I turn my heart from praying for someone else in need?

I asked Him to search me through and through
to cleanse the sin within so I'd be released to pray for you

He said it wasn't about me, how I felt or what I desired to do
Reminded me to lay my feelings and my will upon the alter

He showed me a miracle was about to happen in your honor
He was giving me the privilege to help pray you through

I wept and prayed to God that my words would not rise up in vain
I knew that He was listening each time I called His Name

I asked Jehovah-Jireh to provide your hearts desire
I asked Jehovah-Rophe to heal and protect you soul, spirit and body
Jehovah-Nissi has lifted His banner of love over you
Jehovah-M-Kaddesh to be the only ONE with whom you move
That He would set you apart
And from the top of your head to the soles of your feet, be sanctified and pure
Jehovah-Shalom to be your peace in the midst of every storm
Jehovah-Shammah to always walk beside you
And should you ever go astray, gently lead you home

I asked that evil be kept far from you
That He would hedge you in with His unfailing love
That you would see the need to connect with others
As you await His Kingdom to come

God asked me to stop and pray today
I am thankful that He did
For all to often we get caught up
In the business of the day
And forget that all it may have taken
Was one heartfelt and earnest prayer
On behalf of a friend


I sincerely prayed for you today.

 

[SFerber]

Additionally, I agree the worlds way of dealing with it has not resolved the matter. That being said neither does the church. The church is still in the dark ages, at least the world is willing to shed light on it. The church wants it to remain hidden and off the news. At least this was evident in my situation. "only speak that which make the church look good" I was giving a heart felt invitation for the church to take this on, I was willing to be led by sound leadership and be a learning tool for the church, but she failed to show up for class.

 

[Alithis]

Your self proclaimed "prophetic license" doesn't allow you to tell an abused person that they must martyr themselves. SMH.

again. so Not what i was saying.. you've all recently so misinterpreted what i "meant" in a single word that you've missed the message.(perhaps intentionally ? thats up to individual conscience)
which is love does not seek its own ..but rather lays itself(even life)down for the good of another..and that it is a stain on the western churches
that such extreme love is lacking.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,

these are the principles im presenting and pointedly noting their general absence from the western church.
if you read carefully you will see i was never addressing the individual.
............................
i returned to edit and clarify.

unsubscribing again ..pm if you wish to discuss further.

 

[Alithis]

Additionally, I agree the worlds way of dealing with it has not resolved the matter. That being said neither does the church. The church is still in the dark ages, at least the world is willing to shed light on it. The church wants it to remain hidden and off the news. At least this was evident in my situation. "only speak that which make the church look good" I was giving a heart felt invitation for the church to take this on, I was willing to be led by sound leadership and be a learning tool for the church, but she failed to show up for class.

but God can ..yes? if mankind fails us..as he is prone to do.. Go way over his head. ..

5Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. 6"For he will be like a bush in the desert And will not see when prosperity comes, But will live in stony wastes in the wilderness, A land of salt without inhabitant.…

..... sounds like we both have known the failings of christian brethren and the baroness of trusting people to "get it right" and yet still learned to love them as the lord has loved us..
God bless you ...

 

[mourningdove~]

again. so Not what i was saying.. you've all recently so misinterpreted what i "meant" in a single word that you've missed the message.(perhaps intentionally ? thats up to individual conscience)\

My conscience was not wrong in the way I read your post.
Nor do I believe the 'individual consciences' of the others were wrong either ...

Plain and simple: Several of us here do not support your 'prophetic license' message to this sister.

So, if 'we' all have been 'misinterpreting' what you 'meant' ...
then perhaps that has more to do with the content and/or delivery of your message, than it has to do with all of us.

Just something you might want to consider as you depart ...

God bless.

 

[SFerber]

but God can ..yes? if mankind fails us..as he is prone to do.. Go way over his head. ..

..... sounds like we both have known the failings of christian brethren and the baroness of trusting people to "get it right" and yet still learned to love them as the lord has loved us..
God bless you ...

Indeed. Love is supreme and mercy will triumph over judgement every time.


The devil is so pleased when we bicker amongst ourselves.

 

[murjahel]

Can the church get involved in abuse amidst the congregational families?

Of course, we can and should.

It is time that 'abuse' in Christian circles not be tolerated and ignored anymore.

Some of these abusers are egotistical maniacs, foul mouthed, evil thinking, cruel and shameless. They prey on their victims, they are unfaithful to their victims, they victimize in many ways their victims.

We need to pray for the victims, we need to pray God put a hedge of protection around the victim, and stop the abuser from hurting
them.

We need to talk to authorities, and victim groups to set watch on the abuser and their victims.

We need to have an army of Christians confront in the spiritual realm those evil spirits that are in control of the abuser. Yes, we do need to be the caring intercessors God called us to be !

In Matthew 18, Jesus likens a 'little child' to a disciple, we are told to become like a 'little child', and in so doing we become 'greatest in the Kingdom of heaven'. Then in vs 6, Jesus says,
'But whoso shall offend one of these little ones, which believe in Me, it were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Jesus adds in the next verse that in this world, it is normal that His disciples be mistreated, but, ''woe to the man, by whom the offence cometh'.

This is not polite, this is not the wimpish talk of most Christian (so called) circles. This is not the marshmallow religion of today, but it is Jesus' teaching. The day of overlooking, ignoring, condoning, pretending ignorance of ABUSE is over.

The church that looks to put binders on the victim of the abuse, and say, 'you can't divorce' are ignoring what Scripture really teaches, and become accomplices to the abuse. If they really wanted to bind one to the marriage, they ought to then, at least, be responsible for guarding them from abuse. But, they won't, and so, it is up to the victim to decide what to do.

Take notice that the abuser is in trouble with the Lord, and the Lord is not one an abuser should think he can bully. The 'millstones' are being gathered, the Lord has tired, the abuser should be sensing the anger of God. They have mocked God too long, they have abused His children, His little ones with no repentance. They are foul minded, evil thinking, vile acting enemies of the Lord, for they have hurt His little ones.

Demons are the origin of such sins, and yet the people who succumb to their temptations, are guilty, not innocent. We rebuke demons, we do not condone the actions of the abusers, but we know the origin of the temptations to be abusive.

We are, in these last days, finding demons seeking to abuse the saints with all that they can. Jesus warned us in the last days that 'perilous times' would come. He also said that there would be great persecution against Christians, great abuse from sinners toward saints.

The devil, in Rev 12 even invades heaven in the middle of the tribulation, to try to get to the saints again, after the rapture has us in heaven rejoicing. The devils are anxious to hurt us all. It is wise to be aware of this. It is wise to be prepared for this.

We need to be praying for each other. We pray for the abused, we rebuke the demonic influence in the abusers, we pray for their souls. We do not condone or help abusers. God is angry at abuse of His little ones.

 

[SFerber]

We most certainly rebuke the evil one.

Thank you for your passion. The church has an incredible opportunity before her.

Not all congregations are failing in this. We were dealing with 2 churches at the time and one did the right thing the other clearly did not and to date has not. They in fact have gone on to make this situation that much more egregious.

It is however no accident that I have a love and loyalty to that particular congregation. SVCC. If only I were given a voice once again. Please join me in prayer that Rick and I could have a sit down to clear this matter up and to create a path for others who have and no doubt will come after me.

 

[mourningdove~]

We most certainly rebuke the evil one.

Thank you for your passion. The church has an incredible opportunity before her.

Not all congregations are failing in this. We were dealing with 2 churches at the time and one did the right thing the other clearly did not and to date has not. They in fact have gone on to make this situation that much more egregious.

It is however no accident that I have a love and loyalty to that particular congregation. SVCC. If only I were given a voice once again. Please join me in prayer that Rick and I could have a sit down to clear this matter up and to create a path for others who have and no doubt will come after me.

I join you in praying for that ...

 

[RDKirk]

1 Corinthians 7:10-16 (KJV)
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Notice the darkened words... Sometimes we take what the Bible says and do not read some inserts that indicate a bit different than our assumptions.

Those phrases only indicate where Paul is quoting Jesus as opposed to when he's not quoting Jesus. In verse 10, Paul is quoting Jesus (what we read in Mark 10 and Matthew 19). Jesus spoke about the case of believers in God married to believers in God, denying that righteousness ever exists in divorce and limiting permission for divorce to adultery.

In verse 12, Paul is speaking to Christians married to pagans, a situation that Jesus did not speak on, and thus He can't be quoted.

However, "all scripture is God-breathed," so whether Paul is quoting Jesus or not, this letter has been given to us by the Lord as scripture, so it all has equal standing.

 

[RDKirk]

Can the church get involved in abuse amidst the congregational families?

Of course, we can and should.

It is time that 'abuse' in Christian circles not be tolerated and ignored anymore.

Some of these abusers are egotistical maniacs, foul mouthed, evil thinking, cruel and shameless. They prey on their victims, they are unfaithful to their victims, they victimize in many ways their victims.

We need to pray for the victims, we need to pray God put a hedge of protection around the victim, and stop the abuser from hurting
them.

We need to talk to authorities, and victim groups to set watch on the abuser and their victims.

We need to have an army of Christians confront in the spiritual realm those evil spirits that are in control of the abuser. Yes, we do need to be the caring intercessors God called us to be !

I've spoken before of Calvary Chapel of Honolulu, which we attended in the early 90s when it was under the pastorage of Bill Stonebraker.

They had a ministry called "House of Ruth," run by the pastor's wife. It consisted of a set of confidential safe houses where a wife and the kids could be taken for their safety for extended periods of time. These were the homes of older, established members who were "empty nesters" and had the room.

The church was quite aggressive with the program, to the point that the pastor's wife would speak to a woman who even looked like she might be abused, much less one who actually called in or spoke to her of a problem.

When that happened, members of the Security Ministry (soldiers, football players, night club bouncers, police officers, and such whose gift was "I'm big") would go to the house when the husband was away and whisk the wife and kids and their belongings to the safe house.

Then Security Ministry members along with a team of trained male therapists and counselors who were also members of the congregation would wait in the house for the husband to return. The ensuing conversation went something like:

"Where is my wife?"
"She is safe. And our dear sister will remain safe. But we're going to talk."

In Matthew 18, Jesus likens a 'little child' to a disciple, we are told to become like a 'little child', and in so doing we become 'greatest in the Kingdom of heaven'. Then in vs 6, Jesus says,
'But whoso shall offend one of these little ones, which believe in Me, it were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Jesus adds in the next verse that in this world, it is normal that His disciples be mistreated, but, ''woe to the man, by whom the offence cometh'.

This is an important point.

This has to be taken in conjunction with what Jesus has spoken of divorce. Notice that when Jesus speaks of the unjustly divorced woman remaries, He says she is caused to commit adultery.

Any time a divorce and remarriage occurs, spiritually that is adultery. We can't ignore that fact. But it also has to be realized that Jesus is fully aware of who bears the blame for that sin.

The unjustly divorced woman in Jesus' time--and even in ours--needs to remarry (Paul provides specific reasons why). In spiritual technicalities, a sin is occurring, but Jesus fully knows who bears that blame.

I should point out, too, that "adultery" as Jesus is speaking of it is not a case that a spouse sins and truly repents. In that case, the other Christian spouse is obligated to fully forgive and re-instate. But when a spouse has not truly repented, that spouse has actually left the marriage even if he hasn't left the house.

 

[SFerber]

Well done RDKirk. That is a movement in the church that holds tremendous merit. Would love to learn of the results as well. Were those unions restored? Did they remain separated? Should be in a how to book if you ask me! I was a member on Pastors.com because I was a leader in the church at the time and no one there had any tips even close to what you have laid out. Mostly they wanted to shift in their seat and not address it properly.

 

[Alithis]

My conscience was not wrong in the way I read your post.
Nor do I believe the 'individual consciences' of the others were wrong either ...

Plain and simple: Several of us here do not support your 'prophetic license' message to this sister.

So, if 'we' all have been 'misinterpreting' what you 'meant' ...
then perhaps that has more to do with the content and/or delivery of your message, than it has to do with all of us.

Just something you might want to consider as you depart ...

God bless.

you could have/should have pm'd that ..

 

[Messy]

Abusive marriages only get healed at the Synagogue. In the West you can go to a pastor for help or pay thousands for counselling and still divorce, because it doesn't work.