Define outside of time

[Davian]

But this is about whats possible, and not just about whats intelligible.

Where was it established that gods are possible?

 

[durangodawood]

Where was it established that gods are possible?

It was stipulated in the OP question. So that particular question is not at issue.

 

[Davian]

It was stipulated in the OP question. So that particular question is not at issue.

I do not see where that was stipulated. I infer from the OP that the issue of time (-less/creation of/outside of) is yet another stumbling block in the attempts to establish the possibility of gods.

 

[durangodawood]

I do not see where that was stipulated. I infer from the OP that the issue of time (-less/creation of/outside of) is yet another stumbling block in the attempts to establish the possibility of gods.

He says it right here:

Are you saying god exists outside of all events in life? What is the point of him then if he does not even exist in our dimension/universe whatever?

He's stipulating god exists so he can drill down to the questions that "timelessness" brings up, and avoid the vast field of other questions that surround gods existence.

 

[Davian]

He says it right here:

He's stipulating god exists so he can drill down to the questions that "timelessness" brings up, and avoid the vast field of other questions that surround gods existence.

I don't see that, and it certainly wasn't explicit.

Note that the OP uses a female gender icon.

 

[Syd the Human]

He says it right here:

He's stipulating god exists so he can drill down to the questions that "timelessness" brings up, and avoid the vast field of other questions that surround gods existence.

Are you asking why I talk specifically about god and existing outside of time and not other aspects of his existence? It's because I've heard that phrase often and just realized that I accepted that theory without thinking about it. When I thought about it, nothing about it made sense.

I speak in the context of god existing since theists claim that he does exist, and that he exists outside of time. To say god does not exist, and then state he exists outside of time would not make sense.

 

[Chesterton]

This is absolute rubbish. Math can and does deal with infinities all the time. It's not undefined and it's not meaningless at all.

I didn't say math doesn't "deal with" infinity. I said division of infinity is undefined. Read posts carefully before you call them rubbish.

 

[juvenissun]

The question is a stupid as your statement that your "God creates time".

"Do" is an action; actions take place over time; how can a "timeless" thingamahoozy do anything? It would be like a bug trapped in amber.

Good.

You may also use the same argument on Space. God creates space. But before space was created, where is God?

You just touched one of the fundamental properties of the Christian God. The existence of this God does not need time and space. Not only He can DO in no time, but He can DO anything in no time and no space. (Gen 1:1)

Otherwise, we do not need this God who is limited by time and space. This property of the Christian God is fundamentally important to the Christian theology.

 

[Davian]

Good.

Good, to be trapped like a bug in amber?

You may also use the same argument on Space. God creates space. But before space was created, where is God?

You just touched one of the fundamental properties of the Christian God. The existence of this God does not need time and space. Not only He can DO in no time, but He can DO anything in no time and no space. (Gen 1:1)

Otherwise, we do not need this God who is limited by time and space. This property of the Christian God is fundamentally important to the Christian theology.

That is completely incoherent.

 

[True Scotsman]

I read how theists say god exists outside of time, but what does that mean exactly?

Time is:

"1. the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another.
2.
duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration.
3.
(sometimes initial capital letter) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time:
mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time.
4.
a limited period or interval, as between two successive events:
a long time.
5.
a particular period considered as distinct from other periods:
Youth is the best time of life."

Are you saying god exists outside of all events in life? What is the point of him then if he does not even exist in our dimension/universe whatever?

I think you can see why I am so confused.

You have a right to be confused. It is for those who conceive of such a thing to define the concept. What I would really like to know is by what objective inputs they inform the concept. I'm guessing the answer will not be forthcoming.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Just because God has the ability to create does not make God a finite temporal being that is subject to time.

That's a contradition in terms.

If you engage in the act of creating someting, then you are doing something with sequential events, one after the other. This requires temporal context.

The entity engaging in that activity is subject to a time dimension.

I guess we're en route to that other show-stopping one-liner: "god is mysterious" or "god is incomprehensible".

 

[durangodawood]

I speak in the context of god existing since theists claim that he does exist, and that he exists outside of time. To say god does not exist, and then state he exists outside of time would not make sense.

Thats exactly what I thought.

It makes sense to focus on the time question, if thats what interest you.

Are you asking why I talk specifically about god and existing outside of time and not other aspects of his existence? It's because I've heard that phrase often and just realized that I accepted that theory without thinking about it. When I thought about it, nothing about it made sense.

I neither expect nor demand that everything real about the world make sense to me.

 

[Syd the Human]

Thats exactly what I thought.

It makes sense to focus on the time question, if thats what interest you.


I neither expect nor demand that everything real about the world make sense to me.

The statement made is that god exists out of time. To ignore the god part would make no sense.

I know that I will not understand everything, but when someone makes a nonsensical claim and I ask them to explain, it's not being too demanding of them. That's how we progress as humans, if we don't understand something we ask and find out. Not just say it would be too demanding or arrogant or whatever to even try.

 

[durangodawood]

The statement made is that god exists out of time. To ignore the god part would make no sense.

I know that I will not understand everything, but when someone makes a nonsensical claim and I ask them to explain, it's not being too demanding of them. That's how we progress as humans, if we don't understand something we ask and find out. Not just say it would be too demanding or arrogant or whatever to even try.

I agree. Its completely reasonable to ask someone to back up or explain a claim.

But I realize that some true aspects of reality might be inexplicable.

 

[Syd the Human]

I agree. Its completely reasonable to ask someone to back up or explain a claim.

But I realize that some true aspects of reality might be inexplicable.

Why even bring up that humans might not be able to know everything in a topic about answering a question? That's implying that this question cannot be answered when we're in the middle of trying to figure it out. I think it's too early to say for certain that we can't explain what people are trying to say.

 

[Syd the Human]

A guy explained. Time only applies to matter. Since god is nothing (occupies no space, has no mass or matter, no form, etc etc) time is not something that has to apply to him.

But nothingness is such a confusing thing, I looked into the physics of it and just didn't get it. It seems that some laws still apply to it? I don't know...

 

[beotos]

A guy explained. Time only applies to matter. Since god is nothing (occupies no space, has no mass or matter, no form, etc etc) time is not something that has to apply to him.

But nothingness is such a confusing thing, I looked into the physics of it and just didn't get it. It seems that some laws still apply to it? I don't know...

I attempt to conceive of God as permeating the universe but also transcending it, thus He is in time but also beyond time.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Syd, I've looked at this several ways and cannot decide which way to go. So I'll hit the most obvious branches and see if any of them strike a responsive chord. You'll forgive me if I maintain a certain suspicion in this. I get asked various questions by atheists and then find out they really don't want an answer.

At the simplest, and in what we know as the space-time continuum, 'time' is the passing of events. Currently, the shortest 'event' we can find and track is the emission of radiation from a cesium-133 atom. (One second is the time required for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations.) (Cue The Count from Sesame Street.)

For people like you and me to exist in time, we - seemingly - exist for a finite but large number of 'instants' (not specifically defined) from birth (maybe conception) to physical death. As far as we can tell, these instants occur consecutively and linearly. (For all the philosophical thought about time NOT being linear, humanity at large cannot experience it at will.)

Experiencing time as such is as close as one can get to defining 'being in time'. We are obviously not IN time in the same sense as being 'in' a house. Perhaps not even in the same sense as 'being IN love'. One cannot 'see' time or determine an 'edge' other than death, perhaps.

Allow me an analogy. As all analogies go, it will probably collapse if stretched too far, so bear with me.

One writes a novel. It uses about 70,000 words and in manuscript form takes up about two hundred pages. (Pulled those numbers from my ear.) The story contained in the novel takes three days, more or less. Please note the three days of the story has no relationship to the time required to write the story.

The characters in the novel are confined to those three days. The characters in the novel, between pages 75 and 150 are limited to the actions and events of day two, only. They can remember - so to speak - day one, but they cannot return to day one and alter the story. The characters in the story are 'trapped' as it were in the three days of the story.

However, the author of the story is not so trapped. The author can look at any page of the manuscript at will. The author can change the events of day one when desired. This of course affects the events of days two and three, perhaps making them possible. The characters are powerless over the alterations, in fact they quite probably are not aware of the author's changes, since the current version of page one is the only version in existence as far as they are concerned. Also, the author may make a change on page one, then make a resultant change on page three. In the writer's view, this takes approximately three minutes. In the story line and the character's view, this covers some fifty hours between the changes.

In this illustration, we are the characters in the story and God is the author. He 'acts' in the novel, but He is not confined to the novel. In one sense, He isn't even 'part' of the novel.

Another idea. Remember the concept of a 'time line' to show historic development of some trend? Usually, the 'time line' is shown as a one dimensional line extending from left to right. In the concept of the 'time line', events happen at certain marks along the line signifying the passage of time - centuries, eons, minutes - whatever. However, those of us drawing the 'time line' are not confined 'on' the 'time line'. We are outside the 'time line' and not subject to the constraints thereon.

Now think of the 'time line' of the Universe. (I'm not sure where to put it.) All the events of the Universe transpire somewhere along that 'time line'. It is God who draws the 'time line', standing (figuratively) somewhere outside.

Were I a mathematician, I might be able to show you an equation representing this. If you were a mathematician and could decipher said equation. But no fear; I'm not such a mathematician.

I understand that doesn't explain the mechanics of the problem. I don't think I can. But it demonstrates in principle the idea of being 'outside' of time. As such, does it speak to your question at all?

One last point. According to the Bible and Christianity's understanding of God, God does not change. We humans get older. God does not. Humans learn more - supposedly (I do wonder about some at times). God is Omniscient. He already knows all there is, so He cannot learn anything new (nothing new to learn, not maxed out on smarts). In short, God has no 'events' like the oscillations of the cesium-133 atom to 'count time' for Him.

At the same 'time' (for lack of a better word and in a different sense) God can look in on us and keep tabs on what we do. Part of the understanding of God is that God 'sees' (observes, experiences) all of the history of the Universe at once. The technical, theological word is Omnipresent and applies as much to time as it does to locality.

I presume I've confused you enough for now.

 

[Syd the Human]

Syd, I've looked at this several ways and cannot decide which way to go. So I'll hit the most obvious branches and see if any of them strike a responsive chord. You'll forgive me if I maintain a certain suspicion in this. I get asked various questions by atheists and then find out they really don't want an answer.

At the simplest, and in what we know as the space-time continuum, 'time' is the passing of events. Currently, the shortest 'event' we can find and track is the emission of radiation from a cesium-133 atom. (One second is the time required for a cesium-133 atom to perform 9,192,631,770 complete oscillations.) (Cue The Count from Sesame Street.)

For people like you and me to exist in time, we - seemingly - exist for a finite but large number of 'instants' (not specifically defined) from birth (maybe conception) to physical death. As far as we can tell, these instants occur consecutively and linearly. (For all the philosophical thought about time NOT being linear, humanity at large cannot experience it at will.)

Experiencing time as such is as close as one can get to defining 'being in time'. We are obviously not IN time in the same sense as being 'in' a house. Perhaps not even in the same sense as 'being IN love'. One cannot 'see' time or determine an 'edge' other than death, perhaps.

Did you actually think I thought time was a place like a house?

Allow me an analogy. As all analogies go, it will probably collapse if stretched too far, so bear with me.

One writes a novel. It uses about 70,000 words and in manuscript form takes up about two hundred pages. (Pulled those numbers from my ear.) The story contained in the novel takes three days, more or less. Please note the three days of the story has no relationship to the time required to write the story.

The characters in the novel are confined to those three days. The characters in the novel, between pages 75 and 150 are limited to the actions and events of day two, only. They can remember - so to speak - day one, but they cannot return to day one and alter the story. The characters in the story are 'trapped' as it were in the three days of the story.

However, the author of the story is not so trapped. The author can look at any page of the manuscript at will. The author can change the events of day one when desired. This of course affects the events of days two and three, perhaps making them possible. The characters are powerless over the alterations, in fact they quite probably are not aware of the author's changes, since the current version of page one is the only version in existence as far as they are concerned. Also, the author may make a change on page one, then make a resultant change on page three. In the writer's view, this takes approximately three minutes. In the story line and the character's view, this covers some fifty hours between the changes.

In this illustration, we are the characters in the story and God is the author. He 'acts' in the novel, but He is not confined to the novel. In one sense, He isn't even 'part' of the novel.

But he still did all of those things in order, "instant to instant" in time.

Another idea. Remember the concept of a 'time line' to show historic development of some trend? Usually, the 'time line' is shown as a one dimensional line extending from left to right. In the concept of the 'time line', events happen at certain marks along the line signifying the passage of time - centuries, eons, minutes - whatever. However, those of us drawing the 'time line' are not confined 'on' the 'time line'. We are outside the 'time line' and not subject to the constraints thereon.

Now think of the 'time line' of the Universe. (I'm not sure where to put it.) All the events of the Universe transpire somewhere along that 'time line'. It is God who draws the 'time line', standing (figuratively) somewhere outside.

But we would make that time line sequentially, adding things taking things out in whatever order we chose. Still in time.

Were I a mathematician, I might be able to show you an equation representing this. If you were a mathematician and could decipher said equation. But no fear; I'm not such a mathematician.

I understand that doesn't explain the mechanics of the problem. I don't think I can. But it demonstrates in principle the idea of being 'outside' of time. As such, does it speak to your question at all?

One last point. According to the Bible and Christianity's understanding of God, God does not change. We humans get older. God does not. Humans learn more - supposedly (I do wonder about some at times). God is Omniscient. He already knows all there is, so He cannot learn anything new (nothing new to learn, not maxed out on smarts). In short, God has no 'events' like the oscillations of the cesium-133 atom to 'count time' for Him.

At the same 'time' (for lack of a better word and in a different sense) God can look in on us and keep tabs on what we do. Part of the understanding of God is that God 'sees' (observes, experiences) all of the history of the Universe at once. The technical, theological word is Omnipresent and applies as much to time as it does to locality.

I presume I've confused you enough for now.

He has events, he just knows all of them. To say he has no events is to say that he doesn't exist. At one point he created the earth did he not? Was that not an event? So he sees all at once, which is within time.

 

[Viren]

That's a contradition in terms.

If you engage in the act of creating someting, then you are doing something with sequential events, one after the other. This requires temporal context.

The entity engaging in that activity is subject to a time dimension.

I guess we're en route to that other show-stopping one-liner: "god is mysterious" or "god is incomprehensible".

Not if entity is infinite. The acts don't define the one doing it. Basically you're claiming that in infinite being would be unable to do finite things.