Was Paul speaking to kids as well as adults in Philippians 1-2?

[Gxg (G²)]

Philippians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting
1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops[a] and deacons:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thankfulness and Prayer
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; 7 just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace. 8 For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.

9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, 10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Christ Is Preached
12 But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, 13 so that it has become evident to the whole palace guard, and to all the rest, that my chains are in Christ; 14 and most of the brethren in the Lord, having become confident by my chains, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

To Live Is Christ
19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For[c] I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

Striving and Suffering for Christ
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation,[d] and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.​

Reading the Bible in Chronological order and seeing the background is really powerful - for I Read this today (while also considering a book I had read on the issue called The Ancient Church as Family by Joseph H. Hellerman and part of me was considering the ways I had always assumed it was adults Paul was speaking to only - and yet when see[URL="http://webserv.jcu.edu/bible//408/Readings/HouseholdCodes.htm"]ing how the letter was circulated in that era as with others, with believers meeting in homes with their families and the kids having instructions right after hearing thoughts to older adults[/URL] (as evidenced in places like Ephesians 5-6 and Ephesians 6:1-3 or Colossians 3 where he addresses the needs of kids and married people as if in one setting....more shared in Conflict and Community in Corinth: A Socio-rhetorical Commentary on 1 and 2 ... - Ben Witherington - Google Books and Ephesians - Google Books ), it never occurred to me that perhaps Paul was speaking to the children present as well.

For children are also persecuted around the world and killed for the faith - just as it is with adults. As another said, there is no Junior Holy Spirit And thus, when I read Paul's words on standing strong and being unified, I was amazed to consider that he was possibly thinking of the children as being included in that as well.



Doing children's ministry growing up, I was always told to take seriously how the Bible speaks for all - and to not assume God's callings were just for those who were well-trained or older in age. There are people in many parts of the world who are kids and yet they are doing amazing things for the Gospel - and some of it is pretty striking to consider, as some kids are even as young as 8yrs or 9yrs.

Some aspects to the discussion that I am considering are the fact that it wasn't until the age of 13 that the boys were even considered to be adult enough to be accountable. As said elsewhere, I must say that its often the case that people assume (based on our culture ) that there were teenagers/others considered such----but back in the day, there was no middle category between child and man. Once you hit 12 or 13, you were considered adult/expected to do as adults did rather than someone "in-between" (i.e. teens)/with less expected of them. The theory has been brought forth that even the disciples themselves were predominately young people when understanding Jewish culture - more at Jesus’ Disciples: A teenage posse? | The Happy Surprise for reference.. In our times, again, things have changed - but even today, kids are developing a lot faster.

But as shocking as it is for us to see kids doing things, I don't think God is taken off guard.
Is This Young Boy The Future of Religion? - YouTube

The Childen of Mozambique / Heidi Baker ministry - YouTube

As it is, Age is but a number ---as there are many examples in Scripture of where even young people had godly influence over those older than they...and were highly successful in their trades. King Josiah immediately comes to my mind, for the kid was eight years old when he began influencing people toward serving the Lord ( II Chronicles 34-35/2 Chronicles 34:20 /2 Kings 22:17 )

Josiah's Reforms

1 Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one years. 2 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left.

3 In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David. 2 Kings 23:25

Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did—with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.
2 Kings 23 (
​

Even at his young age, he showed greater wisdom than many of the older kings that came before him because he had decided to seek the Lord and His wisdom………Same thing with David (who was a young adult around 15 to 17yrs when he was anointed 1 Samuel 16:12-14 /1 Samuel 16 and also killed Goliath at 17 1 Samuel 17/ & went into the service of the King, possibly getting married after a couple of years as well, and he was also anointed king over Judah in 1 Samuel 16:12-14/1 Samuel 16 ..and over all Israel seven years later, 2 Samuel 5:8 ---though he didn't officially become king immediately & was far better in comparision to King Saul whom he had to serve under, his exploits were LEGENDARY nonetheless in leadership, 1 Samuel 17)...and the same with Solomon, 1 Kings 1:5 /1 Chronicles 29:1-3 (in Context)1 Chronicles 29:2 1 Chronicles 29 /2 Chronicles 1:14

1 Kings 3:6-8 (in Context) 1 Kings 3
7 "Now, O LORD my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties.
​

Same with Daniel & Co too in Babylon ( Daniel 1:2 ), who were young men (from the families of nobles in Israel). For when did the Lord consider others to be adults in the Scriptures/ready to handle things? They were young...but still used..

And if that was the case then, it does not make sense to assume it'd be different in the NT as if kids were not called to be either saints or soldiers.

Does anyone here believe that Paul was speaking to the children present just as much as he was speaking to adults when it came to persecution and his admonitions to remember Christ - and his remembering them ALL in his prayers?

​

 

[Albion]

It certainly does seem that the basic message is meant for all, but I don't get the implication that all the roles in the church (re: the pic of the kid preacher) are open to children as well as adults, especially when the same Paul outlined the qualifications for that and there are distinctions made between adult men and adult women.

 

[1watchman]

I agree, Albion. One needs to see the context of the Epistle and the subjects.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Op emphasis seems to be on conduct in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. That would be a family matter I would assume in the striving/suffering together yet standing firm in the faith of the gospel. The children could be said to be like those of the church who the overseer needs to be able to manage in order to be qualified.
Goodness of character is manifested in conduct. When a person is out of harmony with God the spiritual factor has been neglected. Is that a child's fault or is it the overseers's fault?
A righteousness of conduct is seen in cooperative activity so I think that's what Paul was emphasising. And that, in turn, to become partakers of the grace means a personal fellowship in union with God to develope holiness of character.
A person be it child or adult needs to intellectually understand the things of God. Emotionally loving God and all that He loves and choosing from the will those things that are in harmony with God. All activity then becomes an outward expression of an inner intellegence that moves in perfect harmony with the things of God.

That may be along way off topic from what the OP had in mind, but it seemed appropriate to me.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

When a person is out of harmony with God the spiritual factor has been neglected. Is that a child's fault or is it the overseers's fault?

Good question. I'm reminded of stumbling blocks. If someone stumbles do we blame them or the stumbling block? Often we love our stumbling blocks and rather than remove those things that cause others to stumble, we will instead blame the person rather than the offence.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Good question. I'm reminded of stumbling blocks. If someone stumbles do we blame them or the stumbling block? Often we love our stumbling blocks and rather than remove those things that cause others to stumble, we will instead blame the person rather than the offence.

It's usually Jesus that person is stumbling over But soon He will be the stone that crushes.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

It's usually Jesus that person is stumbling over But soon He will be the stone that crushes.

Paul mentioned stumbling blocks and he wasn't talking about Christ. Also, if we consider Christs words below, who is stumbling over the Rock of Christ? Are we offended by Paul's words that exhort us to remove stumbling blocks? If so, are we not stumbling over the Rock?

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Paul mentioned stumbling blocks and he wasn't talking about Christ. Also, if we consider Christs words below, who is stumbling over the Rock of Christ? Are we offended by Paul's words that exhort us to remove stumbling blocks? If so, are we not stumbling over the Rock?

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

If you could stay on topic with the OP, I'd appreciate it

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Op emphasis seems to be on conduct in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. That would be a family matter I would assume in the striving/suffering together yet standing firm in the faith of the gospel. The children could be said to be like those of the church who the overseer needs to be able to manage in order to be qualified.
Goodness of character is manifested in conduct. When a person is out of harmony with God the spiritual factor has been neglected. Is that a child's fault or is it the overseers's fault?

I can definitely see that and it's why I've been more willing to see Paul's letters as having relevance to the kids when he's speaking on speaking to the Saints and noting how he was praying for them all

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The Op emphasis seems to be on conduct in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. That would be a family matter I would assume in the striving/suffering together yet standing firm in the faith of the gospel. .

Part of me would think a good question to ask is this: How much can one learn from kids - and do they have the right to be called "brothers" and "sisters" as much as we'd call older people?

Or are children simply meant to be seen and not heard and did the Apostle feel children had nothing to offer the fellowships he helped establish? In light of how Jesus saw children - with the disciples being upset at him when he took time to play with them and bless them and then Christ getting indignant at them rebuking the kids ....I have to wonder.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Part of me would think a good question to ask is this: How much can one learn from kids - and do they have the right to be called "brothers" and "sisters" as much as we'd call older people?

Or are children simply meant to be seen and not heard and did the Apostle feel children had nothing to offer the fellowships he helped establish? In light of how Jesus saw children - with the disciples being upset at him when he took time to play with them and bless them and then Christ getting indignant at them rebuking the kids ....I have to wonder.

If we`re all to be as little children it doesn`t leave much room for adults does it but it does say milk then meat then teach. Jewish custom wasthat a boy was not a man until age 13 but Jesus was in the temple astonishing the rabbis with His wisdom at 12. He was only asking questions tho and they seemed to be in turn asking Him questions. Maybe the criteria is to be about the father`s business. I don`t doubt that the Spirit can speak thru the innocence of a child. That is, in fact, what I believe Jesus meant by becoming a child. As to teaching or preaching a sermon then knowledge and maturuty are lacking for a child. And needed for those who are lacking in the childlikeness of speaking as Christ spoke. I don`t think anyone can remain there as He did.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If we`re all to be as little children it doesn`t leave much room for adults does it but it does say milk then meat then teach. Jewish custom wasthat a boy was not a man until age 13 but Jesus was in the temple astonishing the rabbis with His wisdom at 12. He was only asking questions tho and they seemed to be in turn asking Him questions. Maybe the criteria is to be about the father`s business.

Not complaining makes a difference as well when it comes to criteria, if considering what Paul himself noted when saying "do everything without complaining or arguing so that you may become blameless and pure, "children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation." Then you will shine among them like stars in the universe as you hold out the world of life" (Philippians 2:22)

You can have all the skill in the world but what you have will not be heard if all you know to do is to gripe...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don`t doubt that the Spirit can speak thru the innocence of a child. That is, in fact, what I believe Jesus meant by becoming a child. As to teaching or preaching a sermon then knowledge and maturuty are lacking for a child. And needed for those who are lacking in the childlikeness of speaking as Christ spoke. I don`t think anyone can remain there as He did.

I think a lot of what we assume of children can be based A LOT on what we each experienced growing up. Sadly, for many kids (if in rough neighborhoods), they were already taking care of families at young age (i.e. mom or father died or a single parent doesn't have a job and needs the oldest child to watch the others and find food). Resiliance builds up in others depending on how tough things are - with that adding wisdom and experience that many older adults did not have....whereas other children were allowed to have a childhood and not have those concerns.


But indeed, for many passages, a level of maturity is needed that even children cannot attain to - and it's unfortunately the case that many children are exploited.

• BBC News - The curious allure of child preachers

• Kids Who Preach - National Geographic Channel - UK

• The Old Black Church: Are Children Called To Preach?

Some of it is interesting with what goes on..

10 Craziest Child Preachers - YouTube

child preacher part 2 - YouTube

9 year old preacher warns Church on the Religion of Cain_Pt 1 of 4_March 2009 - YouTube

A 5yr Old's Sermon about Job- Samuel M. Green HD - YouTube

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Not complaining makes a difference as well when it comes to criteria, if considering what Paul himself noted when saying "do everything without complaining or arguing so that you may become blameless and pure, "children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation." Then you will shine among them like stars in the universe as you hold out the world of life" (Philippians 2:22)

You can have all the skill in the world but what you have will not be heard if all you know to do is to gripe...

Daniel speaks of becoming stars also. And Paul speaks of being content no matter what. Confusion and frustration aren't Christian qualities that are conducive to either.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think a lot of what we assume of children can be based A LOT on what we each experienced growing up. Sadly, for many kids (if in rough neighborhoods), they were already taking care of families at young age (i.e. mom or father died or a single parent doesn't have a job and needs the oldest child to watch the others and find food). Resiliance builds up in others depending on how tough things are - with that adding wisdom and experience that many older adults did not have....whereas other children were allowed to have a childhood and not have those concerns.


But indeed, for many passages, a level of maturity is needed that even children cannot attain to - and it's unfortunately the case that many children are exploited.

• BBC News - The curious allure of child preachers

• Kids Who Preach - National Geographic Channel - UK

• The Old Black Church: Are Children Called To Preach?

Some of it is interesting with what goes on..

10 Craziest Child Preachers - YouTube

child preacher part 2 - YouTube

9 year old preacher warns Church on the Religion of Cain_Pt 1 of 4_March 2009 - YouTube

A 5yr Old's Sermon about Job- Samuel M. Green HD - YouTube

Great films!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Off the top of my head, I think the general salutations to "all the saints" or "the faithful" include the children, since we have households that come to faith as a group.

But I also think context matters. If the writer speaks to husbands and wives, that doesn't apply to children. If he speaks to one who works, then that wouldn't apply to children or elderly or infirm who could not work. If he speaks to slaves, then that applies only to them. And so on.

Generally speaking though, most of the words in the various epistles speak to how one should live one's life. In that case, we all grow into it. Someone who just came to faith may not be ready for certain passages to apply to them, but they should mature into it. Likewise children might not fully be able to function in that way, but they should be raised with that expectation and do as they are able.

I think it's actually important not to make age distinctions in general. Children learn by seeing others around them living the faith, by hearing the same words as adults, and grow in their ability and understanding. But we might under- or over-estimate them, so in terms of living life, we shouldn't arbitrarily restrict part of the Scriptures from applying to them.

Obviously passages regarding married people, Church overseers, and such are not for them as children though.

But on the other hand, Jesus specifically said to allow the children to come to him and that "the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these". As GxG said, there is no "Junior Holy Spirit". At times, children have surprised me with genuine spiritual development, a couple of times as young as about 5 years old. So I don't think they should be relegated to "not part of the Church" until they reach some arbitrary age.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Great films!

They are definitely interesting to consider - and yet as wild as it is to have children preaching like adults, it really isn't crazy to consider that you not only had children mature in the Biblical times....but you also had children who were corrupted as well.

When I hear of persecution spoken of by Paul in Philippians (as he noted in Philippians 3:2), it's not hard for me to imagine that there were children raised in the camp of those coming against Christians - even to the point to being willing to kill them. ...all of it being based on what they understood of the Law (like Leviticus 24:23, Numbers 15:32-36, John 8, Acts 6 and other scriptures pertaining to dealing with sin/blasphemy, etc.).

We already see these things taking place in real life, if aware of the reality of child soldiers..

Invisible Children - Discover the Unseen - YouTube

Conflict Minerals, Rebels and Child Soldiers in Congo - YouTube

Documentary: Men at 15-The Child Soldiers of Myanmar - YouTube

Sierra Leone's Cocaine-Drugged Child Soldiers - YouTube

Soldier Child - YouTube

All of that is noted to make the point that it'd make sense to see Paul's admonitions to pray and remain encouraged in persecution being as applicable to children as to the adults - for just as you can have adults perseucting others, the same goes for kids as well - and in all things, Christ should be the focus.

Children go through persecution just as adults and Paul's examples would be just as relevant for them as they are for other adults today going through. On blogs that deal with the issue:

• Persecution Blog: Kids of Courage

• Articles Children of Persecution: Child-Like Faith in Suffering

• Persecution - 7-Year-Old Boy Tortured, Killed for Being Christian - Gospel for Asia

• Persecuted children remembered in action week | Christian News on Christian Today

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It all starts in our own backyards doesn't it? I grew up in an area where that was a renowned term whenever anyone wanted to joke about evil. The kids I grew up with became either Hell's angels or dope dealers. There was no church to bail a few out. And those places that you speak of have worse circumstances to deal with. The kids that manage to escape are labeled and rejected. There's a glaring lack of help to bring them thru. Our church is affiliated with some but there is never enough.
But back to helping those who we can where we are. Abraham for instance was responsible for those who were within his gates and I believe that's our commission too. Not everyone can help all, but one can help some. I have an inner city kids group that I'm just starting up with, mostly doing research on resourses etc, but I'll be glad that I'm doing something to help the kids. I think it needs to be there that they can become influenced the easiest.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Off the top of my head, I think the general salutations to "all the saints" or "the faithful" include the children, since we have households that come to faith as a group.

But I also think context matters. If the writer speaks to husbands and wives, that doesn't apply to children. If he speaks to one who works, then that wouldn't apply to children or elderly or infirm who could not work. If he speaks to slaves, then that applies only to them. And so on.

Generally speaking though, most of the words in the various epistles speak to how one should live one's life. In that case, we all grow into it. Someone who just came to faith may not be ready for certain passages to apply to them, but they should mature into it. Likewise children might not fully be able to function in that way, but they should be raised with that expectation and do as they are able.

I think it's actually important not to make age distinctions in general. Children learn by seeing others around them living the faith, by hearing the same words as adults, and grow in their ability and understanding. But we might under- or over-estimate them, so in terms of living life, we shouldn't arbitrarily restrict part of the Scriptures from applying to them.

Obviously passages regarding married people, Church overseers, and such are not for them as children though.

But on the other hand, Jesus specifically said to allow the children to come to him and that "the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these". As GxG said, there is no "Junior Holy Spirit". At times, children have surprised me with genuine spiritual development, a couple of times as young as about 5 years old. So I don't think they should be relegated to "not part of the Church" until they reach some arbitrary age.

Good thoughts to consider...

If I may share, I do think there are a couple of things we need to consider - for of course, when it comes to texts in regards to husbands and wives, obviously that would not apply to children. However, some things we need to remember:

• Not all slaves were adults, as children were exploited into slavery and child workers existed in the Roman Empire. Slavery was not banned till much later in time....more found in Children in the Roman Empire: Outsiders Within - Christian Laes - Google Books as well as Life in Ancient Rome - Frank Richard Cowell - Google Books and Judaism and Christianity in First-century Rome - Google Books
• Many trades had kids/youth in them, as there was a lot going on with being forced to hire yourself out in order to survive - NO different than what occurred within the last couple of centuries when you had children selling themselves to labor before labor laws were made to protect them.
• Children are often in all levels of maturity - it was not as if there was a children's church when the entire community came out and stonned Achan and his entire family - or all heard Ezekiel declare how God saw Israel in Ezekiel 23, Ezekiel 16 and other places. The maturity level was higher due to the level of exposure in the culture.

• Unfortunately, even for others who got saved later (if married), the chances for many children was that they were ALREADY married off since in the Roman Empire, a very early age of marriage was desirable, especially for Roman girls, in order to ensure a reasonably stable population. This does not mean that the saints would be looking favorably on child brides - but it was something that was a part of the times just as slavery was....and it was something that was worked around.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Daniel speaks of becoming stars also. And Paul speaks of being content no matter what. Confusion and frustration aren't Christian qualities that are conducive to either.

Very true - the most mature person is the one who trusts in God regardless...