Black Africans who are indeed in the Bible

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Gxg (G²);66322180 said:
It's ignorant saying Egyptians weren't black or claiming that descendants today of the Copts are evidence of how all Egyptians always look

The Egyptians per se were not black, although the Nubians were (and the Nubians ruled Egypt during the 25th Dynasty). Scholarship is pretty clear on this.

But since you seem to feel that we're racist, it might be safer to draw this discussion to a close. Have a nice day. :wave:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The Egyptians per se were not black, although the Nubians were (and the Nubians ruled Egypt during the 25th Dynasty). Scholarship is pretty clear on this.
[/QUOTE

As long as one insists on a definition of Black that doesn't line up with how Black was or is seen in the historical context, then of course one can insistent that the Egyptians were not Black per se, Nonetheless, there is a specific context which other scholars have often noted when it comes to discussing Black features within Egyptian culture and what it means to be Black - or why many Egyptians have identified as African-American when they come to the U.S. This goes back to understanding how Egyptians were rather a dark-skinned northeast African population whom we might call "black" - with other shades besides that, in light of the reigon Egypt is in.


Other Egyptians have often pointed this out and this also goes for the Nubian claim, seeing that not all Egyptians who are Black automatically have Nubian roots since there are Copts with Black features and they have noted how others outside the Egyptian context do not needto insist that being Egyptian means one is not without Coptic ancestry. DNA and scholarship has often shown how descendants of the ancient Egyptians reflect the fact that Egyptian ancestors were very much diverse ethnically and in all different shades - even before the Nubians. And as another noted wisely, the ancient Egyptians were definitely not Black in total but they were a part-Black people.[/URL]And part of having Black or African features includes having light shades and dark shades as well.

On the scholarship, as said best elsewhere:

One of the main academic proponents of the view that the ancient Egyptian civilisation was founded by black Africans was the Senegalese historian Cheikh Anta Diop.

"Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilisation. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective nor unruffled. He is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic. The ancient Egyptians were Negroes. The moral fruit of their civilisation is to be counted among the assets of the Black world."

Cheikh Anta Diop, taken from The African Origin of Civilisation.

In his two major works Nations Negres et Culture and Anteriorite des Civilizations Negres he profoundly influenced thinking about Africa around the world.

Cheikh Anta Diop argues that:
  • As humankind began in East Africa it was likely that people were black skinned.
  • People populated other continents by moving either through the Sahara or the Nile Valley.
  • In the period before the start of the great Egyptian dynasties the whole of the Nile river basin was taken over by these negroid peoples.

To support his theory, Diop cited the writings of several Greek and Latin writers who had described the ancient Egyptians.

We have to be honest with the history..


S.O.Y. Keita - Origins and Misconceptions of Egypt and Nile Valley inhabitants - YouTube

S.O.Y. Keita - Ancient Egypt, Its Neolithic History and its Sudanese & Saharan Connections - YouTube

Shomarka Keita Bio Cultural Origins of Kemet(Egypt) - YouTube

Shomarka Omar Keita: What Genetics Can Tell Us (EGYPT) - YouTube

As Oxford University said best:



"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons..."

"Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization........."

"The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate. Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African (i.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown (as opposed to a black) race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans. In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African....."

"Physical anthropologists are increasingly concluding that racial definitions are the culturally defined product of selective perception and should be replaced in biological terms by the study of populations and clines. Consequently, any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depend on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'blacks' [i.e in a social sense] while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 27-28


But since you seem to feel that we're racist, it might be safer to draw this discussion to a close. Have a nice day. :wave:
Pause - for I was not even talking to you at all and thus it is presuming way too much thinking a post focused SOLELY on you. But if someone is going to quote another, there needs to be consideration for quoting exactly as they said it and in context so as to not put words in the mouths of others.
As said before:

Gxg (G²);66322180 said:
That said, there is really a huge difference for others who identify as Black and others who simply have Black features. For Ancient Egyptians, it would not have been a battle seeing themselves as Black since their focus was on being Egyptians or Coptic - even though the features would have been things you see today as well as things pertaining to black features. It's ignorant saying Egyptians weren't black or claiming that descendants today of the Copts are evidence of how all Egyptians always look - as there are many cases where the Egyptians came to the states and were identified as Black .....thus, there's a racial ignorance in the least (and racist tendencies at worst) in ignoring those simple facts.

....

As said elsewhere, A lot of people are shocked by Black Copts (as well as blacks in the Middle East, at all...including places like Iraq, as noted in #133 /#130 ). If we're going to talk on Egypt, we need to actually deal with it as it is TODAY - and not just ignore things as they are.

From the Nubian Egyptians to the Egyptian Berbers...there's way too many aspects about Egypt that were tied to Black aspects - and it's something we need to quit speaking around today.

Amazigh Berber in EGYPT [Siwa Oasis] ?????? ??? - YouTube

10a The Berbers: Masters of the Sahara - YouTube

Icon.StMakarios.jpg


tumblr_inline_n3jy556Hzd1re0zd8.jpg


303401359_c2a90a5de0.jpg









amigos_de_egipto.jpg


For no one said YOU were a racist or anyone here was - what was noted was that one is ignorant in the least in claiming Egyptians were not Black (as the scholarship does not support that idea and multiple Egyptians have put that to rest) - and racism at the worst if insisting that Blacks could never be Egyptian. And when it comes to Black features, the demographics of Egypt today also support that plainly....

Somalis1.PNG

That said, if what is said in context cannot be addressed, indeed...it's best not to continue discussion..
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Ethiopians were a people group intended to be evangelized in the first century, and church tradition has it that the early bishops had gone to Africa. I'm not sure how far they went, or what era, but proof is the remaining Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Ethiopia.
There was actually an excellent book on the issue that was very in-depth on the matter when it came to discussing the history of Ethiopians within the Scriptures and the way God used other blacks - as seen in the book entitled Wade in the River: The Story of the African Christian Faith" by Fr. Paisius Altschul



The book goes through examining the entire faith of Africa and its contribution to the world - starting with the Biblical accounts of significant Africans, then early Christianity and going through the Islamic period, pressing past Western slavery, and going into the present era. People who are Black Africans have much to be proud of when it comes to seeing the extensive ways their culture is present in the scriptures....

Crucifixion02.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There's no question but that Negroid peoples from further south penetrated Egypt at times in her long history, but not until rather late and not at the time of Moses and the Hebrews' captivity. For certain, photographs of Egyptians who have lived in recent times prove nothing at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

HannibalFlavius

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2013
4,206
200
Houston
✟5,329.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Moses married two black women, and the bride of Christ IS BLACK.


The Bride
5"I am black but lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, Like the tents of Kedar, Like the curtains of Solomon. 6"Do not stare at me because I am swarthy, For the sun has burned me. My mother's sons were angry with me; They made me caretaker of the vineyards, But I have not taken care of my own vineyard.…
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Moses married two black women, and the bride of Christ IS BLACK.


The Bride
5"I am black but lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, Like the tents of Kedar, Like the curtains of Solomon. 6"Do not stare at me because I am swarthy, For the sun has burned me. My mother's sons were angry with me; They made me caretaker of the vineyards, But I have not taken care of my own vineyard.…
Awesome quote from The Song of Solomom - the girl in the story is truly fascinating when seeing what she had to deal with. Would be amazing to see what the the girl in Song of Songs looked like, as the ways Solomon described here was truly beautiful. I'd imagine close to this:


Beautiful and sunburned....


Song of Songs 1:5
Dark am I, yet lovely, daughters of Jerusalem, dark like the tents of Kedar, like the tent curtains of Solomon. Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun. My mother’s sons were angry with me and made me take care of the vineyards; my own vineyard I had to neglect.

Tell me, you whom I love,
where you graze your flock
and where you rest your sheep at midday.
Why should I be like a veiled woman
beside the flocks of your friends?
Song of Songs 1:4-6


When it comes to genetics and how they impact complexion, seeing the arguments can be interesting. In example Some have argued that Abraham was a Chaldean. ..that Isaac married a Chaldean... Jacob married a Chaldean...and they say that the Syrians and Iraqis are modern-day Chaldeans. Many say the Hebrews couldn't of been black because the Chaldeans today are not "black", nor are they "white" (in their view)---with others saying that the Hebrews looked something similar to modern-day Iraqis.

However, as it stands, there's already debate on the issue of how people evolve in their ethnic looks...as just because a people group looks one way today doesn't mean they always looked like that. There's no evidence at all to verify that the sons of Jacob in any way looked like modern-day Iraqis when the areas they came from had people known to have African-features. If they married people from areas near Iraq, that's different. Throughout history, there've been many variations of Hebrew people in all colors/shapes and sizes, be it Chinese Jews or Indian Jews or Sephardic and many others. They came from people all over the world. Moses married a woman from Cush ( Numbers 12:1-3 ) - to be even more technical, according to Exodus 2-3, it is in Midian—a region in northwestern Arabia*—that Moses meets the woman who was his first wife.... a Midianite woman named Zipporah. And there were many others in the OT who came from countries all over where the complexion was of a dark nature

The dynamics of racial makeup is very fascinating - seeing that people of darker complexion were more than present in the area since the time of Abraham. Not many people are aware of that reality of how there were
Negroid peoples
from multiple directions (be it the East or the South) who came into places like Egypt long before the time of Moses and the Exodus account - even Rameses II (the Pharoah in the time of Moses) was of darker complexion.

ramesII.jpg

In Eurocentric schools of thought, the idea has often been ignored unfortunately despite what most modern scholarship has pointed from further south penetrated Egypt at times in her long history - in consistency with the ways that many Egyptians of dark complexion appear ....which consistently is ignored by people who wish to assume the Egyptians did not have black features rather than setting aside the bias and addressing the facts for what they are. And even with others saying that Egyptians today (who are lighter-skinned) are the definition of what ancient Egyptians ALL looked like in the time of Moses - it is fascinating to consider the reality that even the Copt people aren’t indigenous Egyptians since they migrated to Egypt just like the Arabs. All one needs to do is Google
Genetic variation and population structure of Sudanese populations as seen in National Center for Biotechnology Information

Ketians (Egyptians) were and always have been African - as they migrated from the South, which meant that they originated in the southern part of Africa...and the Bantu are their ancestral lineage. As another noted wisely:

According to Jean Francois Champollion ( French archaeologist) who deciphered the Rosette Stone which indicated that ancient Egyptians in their own handwriting stated that they came from the highlands of Ethiopia. People living in the Horn of Africa ( East Africa) do have mid-brown to brown complexions with Caucasoid feathers; much like people from modern day countries of Somali, Ethiopia, and Djibouti. Not all black people are Negroid. Some are Caucasoid, Austroloid, or a half way between both phenotypes. These people may possible mixed with people from the Arabian peninsula. The Copts of Egypt are mixed with people of Greek and other Mid-eastern ancestry and would not be a good example of how the ancient Egyptians looked. The Beji people of southern Egyptian would more closely related to the ancient people of Egypt. Ancient Egyptians civilization was original found by people who traveled from south east of Egypt around (Eritrea/Somalia) who followed the river north and then integrated with nomes of lower Egypt to establish the Kingdom. During later periods of history outside populations called ( hyskos) moved into to Egypt mixing with the indigenous population and becoming a melting pot. Nubians from the south of Egypt and northern Sudan where conscripted into the Egyptians army and culture accompanied with Libyans and other populations from the Levant ( middle east) who varied in skin tones from light to dusky to dark. Due to the continued flow of people from surrounding countries skin complexion varied; but for the most part many of the ancient Egyptians where dark and would be considered black by modern standards. The ancients Egyptians had a 3,000 year history. Greeks and Romans did not conquer Egypt until later part of the dynasty era around 500BC. The Arab invasion took place in 700AD and through migration and replacement change the Egypt population. The original name of Egypt is Khem, Cham or the land of Ham as stated in the bible.



For reference on some of the scholarship on the matter, one can go here or here:





 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

Harbingr

Newbie
Sep 10, 2014
214
3
✟382.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Sampson and Elijah were black.
Pope Victor was black.

I don't know about 100% pure African black though. It's likely they had some Egyptian or Middle Eastern in them as well like most everyone in the Bible, at least up until the New Testament- the apostles were eastern-white Jews, as well as Jesus probably. They couldn't tell him apart from the others in Gethsemane.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

Alive_Again

Resident Alien
Sep 16, 2010
4,167
231
✟12,991.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Although people can make a study from anything in the Word, I find it refreshing in today's world not to really see color. As an American, it is constantly presented to me, even though we're supposed to be letting these things go and just seeing things as a diverse whole.

It does say that every race and nation are represented in Heaven. That's good enough for me. I'm glad we don't have to have so many of one race represented and not worry about having too many white people there. Whew! It is wearisome to think this way. I like to quote that line from that weird movie "Eating Raul" (I think it was): "It's people!"

It is common for cultures to depict Jesus as a member of their race. Kind of ridiculous seeing that they were Middle Eastern Jews. I know Jesus was a Jew, but I just see Him for who He is, not as some kind of racial achievement for Jews. I hope nobody reads anything into this other than I look forward to the day when we stop seeing color and we can just be one without emphasizing physical differences. (But people insist on getting offended when you get near the "racial divide".)

For us,What's important is the inner man of the heart. There's no Jew or Greek in Christ.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,026
620
✟78,299.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
After all what is this reference to "blacks" what are "blacks"? There is only one human race and we are a spectrum of all sorts from the lightest almost white albino (some among the darkest African tribes) and the darkest shades of brown (some among the Caucasoid species of India)...with all shades in between represented through out the world. Only if a racially minded (mostly bigots of the neo-Darwinian order but not without the other victims of their programming) takes one extreme and pits them against another extreme to such differences appear to emerge but appearances are deceiving.

Let's see? What color was Jesus? A man of Davidic origin who has many shades and ethnicities involved in His genetic past who grew up as an Artisan of wood, an outside job having endured decades in the heat of the sun...not white, not black...probably more like most Arabic peoples
 
Upvote 0

AgapeBible

Member
Aug 26, 2007
837
245
43
USA/Florida
✟44,257.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
In Egyptian mythology the evil god Set (Seth?) is seen as ugly, he apparently is a white man with pale skin and red hair. Maybe Yosemite Sam or the king in the wizard of Id? I heard Moses' wife was black, but I did not know that the Midianites were black. I thought they had dark, more like olive or brown skin. i thought Moses had 2 wives, and one was Ethiopian, or Cushite. It says Moses' sister Miriam was racist against Moses black wife, and God punished her with leprosy, which turns the skin white. Miriam was quarantined outside the camp for 7 days before God healed her.

I heard there was an early Christian church that took root in Ethiopia. There are also Coptic Egyptian Christians. North Africa has a lot of Muslims, there are many Muslims taking over Africa.


Could the Queen of Sheba who visited Solomon have been black? Where is Sheba? I heard a rumor Solomon was in love with her, he tricked her into an affair and they had a son together.


"Dark and I, but lovely. My mother's sons were angry with me, and made me tend the vineyard." Reminds me of Cinderella. Cinderella story has ancient roots. I wonder, could Song of Solomon have a bit of prophecy about Africans in slavery and racism? Perhaps it is God's love for black people.


There is the story in Acts about Philip the missionary meeting an Ethiopian eunuch, an ambassador, that worked for Queen Candace of Ethiopia. I think Candace was her title and not her name. I think the name Candace means queen. I knew a black girl named Candace in high school. She was so sweet, we were friends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AgapeBible

Member
Aug 26, 2007
837
245
43
USA/Florida
✟44,257.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
This is why I like rainbows. Not only are they beautiful, they represents God's peace. It is light divided into 7 colors. The rainbow colors are bold and bright. We humans have an earthen rainbow of skin. Our skin is earth-colored, white, peach, tan, yellow, red, brown, copper, dark brown, black.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lik3
Upvote 0